Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

U
Looks like it's NOT a CSI issue but rather a shortcoming of this very common method of activating FX...

     RotaryPush|                Reaper "_S&M_FLOATFX|"
     RotaryPush|                Reaper "_S&M_SELFX|"
     RotaryPush|                GoFXSlot

Sorry about that. It should of really been removed when FXMenu banking was introduced.

The Reaper "_S&M_SELFX|" line is redundant anyway. I put it in to set things up so that I could use the S&M Actions for FX bypass and offline, but now we have proper CSI Actions for those.

We do need a CSI Action to open the selected FX GUI, though.

[Funkybot]

Nothing to apologize for. I couldn't tell you the last time I had more than 8 inserts on a track personally, outside of testing that bug report yesterday. So those actions are still very good for me.

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

We do need a CSI Action to open the selected FX GUI, though.

But yeah, totally agree. Would be best handled natively by CSI. Just the float variant would be enough for me. Not sure if anyone really loves the FX Chain window and would need to see that variant.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

I'm fine with the Receive being selective, but how much granularity do we get?

Also, are we still working from the premise that Track Zones (Track/Send/Reveive/FXMenu) always Broadcast/Receive?

Track Zones are at Page scope, there is no need for Broadcast/Receive.

As far as granularity, here's a slippery answer

As little as possible whilst still satisfying everyone's needs

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

We do need a CSI Action to open the selected FX GUI, though.

Geez, I keep trying to get 3.2 out the door, and you and FB keep coming up with great feature requests

Seriously, that is long overdue, I'll look into it.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Track Zones are at Page scope, there is no need for Broadcast/Receive.

As far as granularity, here's a slippery answer

As little as possible whilst still satisfying everyone's needs

Why not start with nothing Received (apart from AllSurfacesGoHome) and we'll check what the implications are?

[Funkybot]

Call it version 3.5!

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Why not start with nothing Received (apart from AllSurfacesGoHome) and we'll check what the implications are?

Because the world of Twister/iPad will immediately fall apart

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Call it version 3.5!

Yeah, I hear that, but don't forget, if we change major versions -- e.g. 4.0 -- we will need to alter CSI.ini, so I want to delay that as much as possible.

[Geoff Waddington]

How about OpenFXSlotGUI for the name of the new Action ?

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

How about OpenFXSlotGUI for the name of the new Action ?

I like ShowFXSlot. I think it implies the Open and GUI parts. But I'm good with whatever you call it.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

I like ShowFXSlot. I think it implies the Open and GUI parts. But I'm good with whatever you call it.

I like it.

GoFXSlot
ShowFXSlot

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Because the world of Twister/iPad will immediately fall apart

I thought they needed to Broadcast/Receive.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

I thought they needed to Broadcast/Receive.

They do, I thought you said "Why not start with nothing Received".

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

They do, I thought you said "Why not start with nothing Received".

I did. Why would Twister/iPad need to use the Receive filter?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

I did. Why would Twister/iPad need to use the Receive filter?

Ah, terminology.

I interpreted "nothing Received" to mean there would be Broadcast of everything, but there would be no reception of anything.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ah, terminology.

I interpreted "nothing Received" to mean there would be Broadcast of everything, but there would be no reception of anything.

As a starting point for ToggleBroadcastReceive, receiving nothing seemed like a good place to start.

[Geoff Waddington]

Maybe we can break this down into categories:

ToggleReceiveSelected

GoFXSlot
ClearFXSlot
ClearSelectedTrackFX

GoAssociatedZone
    SelectedTrackFXMenu
    SelectedTrackSend
    SelectedTrackReceive
    SelectedTrack
    SelectedTrackFX

AdjustBank
    selectedTrackSendOffset_ = 0;
    selectedTrackReceiveOffset_ = 0;
    selectedTrackFXMenuOffset_ = 0;

ToggleReceiveTrack

GoAssociatedZone
    Track
    TrackFXMenu
    TrackSend
    TrackReceive
    VCA
    Folder

AdjustBank
    trackSendOffset_ = 0;
    trackReceiveOffset_ = 0;
    trackFXMenuOffset_ = 0;
    masterTrackFXMenuOffset_ = 0;

ToggleReceiveAutoMapLearn

GoLearnFXParams
SaveLearnedFXParams
GoAutoMapFX

ToggleReceiveFocus

ToggleEnableFocusedFXParamMapping
ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping
ClearFocusedFX
ClearFocusedFXParam

I may have left some out, please free to correct, suggest, etc...

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Maybe we can break this down into categories:

ToggleReceiveSelected

GoFXSlot
ClearFXSlot
ClearSelectedTrackFX

GoAssociatedZone
    SelectedTrackFXMenu
    SelectedTrackSend
    SelectedTrackReceive
    SelectedTrack
    SelectedTrackFX

AdjustBank
    selectedTrackSendOffset_ = 0;
    selectedTrackReceiveOffset_ = 0;
    selectedTrackFXMenuOffset_ = 0;

ToggleReceiveTrack

GoAssociatedZone
    Track
    TrackFXMenu
    TrackSend
    TrackReceive
    VCA
    Folder

AdjustBank
    trackSendOffset_ = 0;
    trackReceiveOffset_ = 0;
    trackFXMenuOffset_ = 0;
    masterTrackFXMenuOffset_ = 0;

ToggleReceiveAutoMapLearn

GoLearnFXParams
SaveLearnedFXParams
GoAutoMapFX

ToggleReceiveFocus

ToggleEnableFocusedFXParamMapping
ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping
ClearFocusedFX
ClearFocusedFXParam

I may have left some out, please free to correct, suggest, etc...

That seems very comprehensive! Is this the layout of the actual Actions?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

That seems very comprehensive! Is this the layout of the actual Actions?

Mostly, for the AdjustBank i cheated and copied directly from the code, but I'm sure you get the idea.

If we can agree on this satisfying everyone's use cases we would only need:

ToggleReceiveSelected
ToggleReceiveTrack
ToggleReceiveAutoMapLearn
ToggleReceiveFocus

Still somewhat granular, but much more manageable and less overwhelming than the old huge lists of Broadcast/Receive days.

The key question is -- does anyone anticipate a need to break down any of those categories further ?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

The key question is -- does anyone anticipate a need to break down any of those categories further ?

I see any issues being less about finer control and more about being able to separate groups of surfaces from one another whilst still allowing Broadcast/Receive within the group.

For instance, the BCR2000/iPad combo would be one group, being used alongside an XTouch and extender, which would be another.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

I see any issues being less about finer control and more about being able to separate groups of surfaces from one another whilst still allowing Broadcast/Receive within the group.

For instance, the BCR2000/iPad combo would be one group, being used alongside an XTouch and extender, which would be another.

Fabulous, I have never considered amalgamating the two concepts.

So, does this make sense ?

The membership in a group defines the Broadcast semantics.

Here's an idea for defining a group.

Say this is the Home Zone for an MCU that wishes to Broadcast to 2 extenders:

OnInitialization BroadcastGroup MCUExtender1 MCUExtender2

This says that the MCU will Broadcast to MCUExtender1 and MCUExtender2

You can then control how the extenders respond via the ToggleReceives of MCUExtender1 and MCUExtender2.

Conversely, MCUExtender1 and MCUExtender2 do not Broadcast in this example.

I love this concept !

Let's discuss further...

[Funkybot]

Broadcast groups you say? I love it.

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Or maybe, Broadcast/Receive groups where we add a number to say "this only broadcasts to group 1, and is only received by group 1". That might work great for much setups like mine where you want to treat the MFTwister as one group without impacting what's happening on the X-Touch. Same for MM with the C4+MCU's or anyone using an SCE-24 with an X-Touch.

Zone "Home"
Broadcast1 GoFXSlot FocusedFX LearnFXParams
Receive1   GoFXSlot FocusedFX LearnFXParams
     IncludedZones
          "SelectedTrack"
          "Buttons"
          "SelectedTrackTCPFX"
          "SelectedTrackSend"
          "SelectedTrackReceve"
     IncludedZonesEnd
ZoneEnd

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

The membership in a group defines the Broadcast semantics.

Here's an idea for defining a group.

Say this is the Home Zone for an MCU that wishes to Broadcast to 2 extenders:

OnInitialization BroadcastGroup MCUExtender1 MCUExtender2

This says that the MCU will Broadcast to MCUExtender1 and MCUExtender2

You can then control how the extenders respond via the ToggleReceives of MCUExtender1 and MCUExtender2.

Conversely, MCUExtender1 and MCUExtender2 do not Broadcast in this example.

This makes perfect sense to me The MCU in this example is obviously the boss, for no other reason than it has the extra buttons for accessing the Associated Zones.

If you were to add an iPad/BCR2000 to it, the iPad would probably be the boss in that pair, again because it carries extra buttons and indicators that the BCR2000 lacks (currently, the FXMenu is only on the iPad, but the FX map to both surfaces).

Both groups Broadcast/Receive within themselves, but are independent of each other.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Broadcast groups you say? I love it.

Yes, it was a good idea when you brought it up.

I think it gets even stronger when combined with the new ToggleReceive concept.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I think it gets even stronger when combined with the new ToggleReceive concept.

Makes the whole control surface thing quite modular.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Yes, it was a good idea when you brought it up.

I think it gets even stronger when combined with the new ToggleReceive concept.

I'm just being a putz. I like where this is all going though.

If not insanely complex to code, the group concept makes a lot of sense where you may have lots of surfaces and you want one pair operating as a group and mirroring each other, but then maybe you're MM or MT4U and you want your MCU and XT's to be a second group - with different receive needs between them.

I dig it.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

This makes perfect sense to me The MCU in this example is obviously the boss, for no other reason than it has the extra buttons for accessing the Associated Zones.

If you were to add an iPad/BCR2000 to it, the iPad would probably be the boss in that pair, again because it carries extra buttons and indicators that the BCR2000 lacks (currently, the FXMenu is only on the iPad, but the FX map to both surfaces).

Both groups Broadcast/Receive within themselves, but are independent of each other.

Yes, that's it !

I think if nothing is defined, every Surface Broadcasts everything, and every Surface Receives everything.

Also, since this is going to be heavy user install specific, I think there should be a GUI to manage it.

Pretty simple -- three list boxes.

Box 1 -- Broadcasters

Box 2 -- Shows Targets of selected Broadcaster of Box 1

Box 3 -- Shows ToggleReceives for selected Target of Box 2

A few buttons for add/remove, etc., very reminiscent of the CSI.ini config panel.

[Funkybot]

I think we could make do without the GUI but definitely won't say no to one.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

I think we could make do without the GUI but definitely won't say no to one.

Yeah, we can definitely get things going without it.

I'm just saying it won't be hard to build one once the design settles.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Yeah, we can definitely get things going without it.

Let's see how the concept works in practice. I liked this construction:

OnInitialization BroadcastGroup MCUExtender1 MCUExtender2

Thinking back to the old Broadcast/Receive setup, I don't think I ever had the Extenders Broadcast anything. It was always controlled from the MCU.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Let's see how the concept works in practice. I liked this construction:

OnInitialization BroadcastGroup MCUExtender1 MCUExtender2

Yeah, the Zone will look like that, the GUI will just allow an easy way to edit it, the GUI will output the changes to the Home Zone and the end result will be the same, exactly like you can edit CSI.ini directly or via the GUI.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Yeah, the Zone will look like that, the GUI will just allow an easy way to edit it, the GUI will output the changes to the Home Zone and the end result will be the same, exactly like you can edit CSI.ini directly or via the GUI.

Sounds good! I think the grouping may mitigate the need for very fine Receive filters.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Sounds good! I think the grouping may mitigate the need for very fine Receive filters.

Hopefully the 4 we have discussed will be enough.

[MT4U]

Wow, this forum is lightning fast!

I've been pondering the "Group" idea for a while.

I got into "Control Surfaces" with an X-Touch One, then after a while I added an Extender. Then I got into CSI and suddenly I needed Option, and Control, and I ended up with an X-Touch as well.

So I have the XT-One with Local modifiers as a repository for buttons that call scripts and blah blah, but I naturally feel the X-Touch+Extender as a 16 track surface, especially with FX, since I use many VST synths that nearly come to life like my old Analogues here when you control them with knobs and colored screens (I know, I know, SCE24) so my goal was always to have 100% synchronization.

I thought I could, (latency permitting) add some MIDI proxy that would make CSI see those two MIDI devices as one, but then the track messages in the Extender are the same as the X-Touch, so that was an no go.

Personal story apart, this all sounds incredible, really eager to see it in the field. There is a bunch more being Broadcasted (yes, toggable, MM) so great!!!

[flipotto]

I just want to say, Learn is awesome!
A synth plugin that me a long time to text edit, takes 5 mins.
I actually have the brain power, while I'm in Learn, to think about where I am mapping, I can see it on the touchosc display and easily change my mind and move something.
Thank you very much!
Very nice!

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by flipotto

I just want to say, Learn is awesome!
A synth plugin that me a long time to text edit, takes 5 mins.
I actually have the brain power, while I'm in Learn, to think about where I am mapping, I can see it on the touchosc display and easily change my mind and move something.
Thank you very much!
Very nice!

Glad to hear the setup is producing good results!

Are you using the latest EXP build and did you change GoAssociatedZone LearnFXParams to GoLearnFXParams? I'm not judging, just trying to gather information (as it's obviously working for you).

Are you able to return to an (unedited) Learnt Zone and add more controls?

Are the indicators for Learn and Save working correctly?

[flipotto]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Glad to hear the setup is producing good results!

Are you using the latest EXP build and did you change GoAssociatedZone LearnFXParams to GoLearnFXParams? I'm not judging, just trying to gather information (as it's obviously working for you).

Are you able to return to an (unedited) Learnt Zone and add more controls?

Are the indicators for Learn and Save working correctly?

Oops, sorry - no NOT using most recent exp build, the previous one. I
I found on the most recent, my bcr didn't work after mapping with touchosc (pcscreen), so I bailed. I decided to wait for next.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by flipotto

Oops, sorry - no NOT using most recent exp build, the previous one. I
I found on the most recent, my bcr didn't work after mapping with touchosc (pcscreen), so I bailed. I decided to wait for next.

Yes, the previous one works better for me in that regard too

[Geoff Waddington]

New Exp build is up.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

Fixed bug in FXMenu alias diaplay.

Learn mode now has a couple more dialogs

Learn mode should now blank displays properly when modifiers engaged.


New FX GUI Actions:

    RotaryPush| GoFXSlot
    RotaryPush| ShowFXSlot

    OnZoneDeactivation 	HideFXSlot

Added the new Broadcast/Receive logic:

    OnInitialization    SetBroadcastGroup MCUExtender1 MCUExtender2

ToggleShouldReceiveSelected
ToggleShouldReceiveTrack
ToggleShouldReceiveAutoMapLearn
ToggleShouldReceiveFocus

Broadcast/Receives all default to off.

I'm sure there will be questions, ask away.

Also, there was a tremendous amount of cut and paste, likely screwed up more than once

In other words, please test thoroughly and report anything you find.

Didn't implement Banking Broadcast/Receive logic, I looked at the existing code, and it looked pretty ragged, let's find out what's working, what's not, and fix it, there is a lot to test, I figured better to get it out to you folks as soon as possible.

[flipotto]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New Exp build is up.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

Fixed bug in FXMenu alias diaplay.

Learn mode now has a couple more dialogs

Learn mode should now blank displays properly when modifiers engaged.


New FX GUI Actions:

    RotaryPush| GoFXSlot
    RotaryPush| ShowFXSlot

    OnZoneDeactivation 	HideFXSlot

Added the new Broadcast/Receive logic:

    OnInitialization    SetBroadcastGroup MCUExtender1 MCUExtender2

ToggleShouldReceiveSelected
ToggleShouldReceiveTrack
ToggleShouldReceiveAutoMapLearn
ToggleShouldReceiveFocus

Hmmm, I don't know which files to put those in?