Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Everyone in the same Group should just listen, or more flexibly, add the Track options to the Advanced section.

That's my real question, do we really need options in the Advanced section ?

Actually you bring up an interesting point.

Track ignores Groups completely, shouldn't the other ones we've been discussing do the same ?

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Just to confirm, there's no more SetBroadcastGroup, is there? The Group membership is derived from the Advanced section settings.

Correct.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

That's my real question, do we really need options in the Advanced section ?

Actually you bring up an interesting point.

Track ignores Groups completely, shouldn't the other ones we've been discussing do the same ?

As far as I can tell, if the others ignore Groups, it would work in the same way as it did before the introduction of Groups.

For the sake of simplicity, this might be the best approach. However, if Folders/VCAs were added to the Advanced section, it would be possible to decide where the VCA leaders/Folder parents appeared on the Group of surfaces.

[Freex]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

As far as I can tell, if the others ignore Groups, it would work in the same way as it did before the introduction of Groups.

For the sake of simplicity, this might be the best approach. However, if Folders/VCAs were added to the Advanced section, it would be possible to decide where the VCA leaders/Folder parents appeared on the Group of surfaces.

OH that would be a great way of getting the groups "closer to me" on the MCU rather than all the way over on the XT.

I like this option...

...a lot.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Freex

OH that would be a great way of getting the groups "closer to me" on the MCU rather than all the way over on the XT.

I like this option...

...a lot.

So do I It would work in the same way as being able to have SelectedTrackSends appear on a surface in the centre of the setup rather than the far left hand end.

[Geoff Waddington]

What about Tracks, should they play the Broadcaster/Listener game as well ?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

What about Tracks, should they play the Broadcaster/Listener game as well ?

I don't think so. Neither should TrackSend, TrackReceive and TrackFX.

I can't imagine a scenario where I would want any of these to be displaced from their expected left to right layout (okay, I can, but we need to draw the line somewhere)

[MixMonkey]

One other small point I forgot to mention. Banking of SelectedTrackVariants is Broadcast/Listened to globally, not contained within the Group that is being banked.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

One other small point I forgot to mention. Banking of SelectedTrackVariants is Broadcast/Listened to globally, not contained within the Group that is being banked.

Thanks, will investigate.

[Geoff Waddington]

Has a closer look at the code.

It would be a major architecture change to allow VCAs and Folders to respect the Group structure.

So, for now at least, we'll have to settle for the old Broadcast everywhere model.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Has a closer look at the code.

It would be a major architecture change to allow VCAs and Folders to respect the Group structure.

So, for now at least, we'll have to settle for the old Broadcast everywhere model.

Never mind Let's just have it the way it was.

[Geoff Waddington]

New Exp build is up.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

Hopefully put everything back the way it was for the Associated Zones we've been discussing.

Let me know if anything doesn't work the way you think it should, including banking.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New Exp build is up.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

Hopefully put everything back the way it was for the Associated Zones we've been discussing.

Let me know if anything doesn't work the way you think it should, including banking.

It's hard keeping track of some of these changes so just so I understand, does this mean Folder and VCA associated zones are back to the old page-level broadcast-to-everything listen-to-everything model? And everything else stays the same as the last EXP build vis-a-vis broadcast/listen?

And banking should now work?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

It's hard keeping track of some of these changes so just so I understand, does this mean Folder and VCA associated zones are back to the old page-level broadcast-to-everything listen-to-everything model? And everything else stays the same as the last EXP build vis-a-vis broadcast/listen?

And banking should now work?

Here's the list of Associated Zones that are back to the old page-level broadcast-to-everything listen-to-everything model:

Folder
VCA
TrackSend
TrackReceive
MasterTrackFXMenu
TrackFXMenu
SelectedTrackFXMenu

I didn't change anything with banking, not sure what's right, what's wrong, relying on you good folks to tell me

[Funkybot]

Thanks for the updated info. Will try to test tonight if I can.

Before even trying it out, I'm not sure if I would want SelectedTrackFXMenu being page-level. I currently keep separate SelectedTrackFXMenus on my Twister vs. X-Touch. With automapping/Learn, I wouldn't want activating an FX on my Twister to impact anything on the X-Touch and vice versa. Sometimes I'll switch between the two surfaces for FX duty. But will try it out and see what happens.

TrackFXMenu is a slightly different use-case IMO because it makes sense that any surface with a Track-style zone would display the info.

The problem with banking earlier was that banking seemed to always be broadcast/received and listened to by all. Example: Bank SelectedTrackFXMenu would fire to all surfaces with an FXMenu. Right now, I suppose that would be expected.

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Thanks for the updated info. Will try to test tonight if I can.

Before even trying it out, I'm not sure if I would want SelectedTrackFXMenu being page-level. I currently keep separate SelectedTrackFXMenus on my Twister vs. X-Touch. With automapping/Learn, I wouldn't want activating an FX on my Twister to impact anything on the X-Touch and vice versa. Sometimes I'll switch between the two surfaces for FX duty. But will try it out and see what happens.

Do you mean it should be at Broadcast Group Scope instead of Page? Sounds logical.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by MT4U

Do you mean it should be at Broadcast Group Scope instead of Page? Sounds logical.

Yes, exactly.

I'd ideally like to have:

1. SelectedTrackFXMenu on my iPad, Desktop, and MFTwister all talking to each other (broadcast/listening) and functioning as a mirrored group.

2. A second SelectedTrackFXMenu on the X-Touch that basically ignores everyone else.

If I map FX on the Twister setup (#1) they should not impact the X-Touch (#2) and vice versa.

Note: this is only for SelectedTrackFXMenu.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Yes, exactly.

I'd ideally like to have:

1. SelectedTrackFXMenu on my iPad, Desktop, and MFTwister all talking to each other (broadcast/listening) and functioning as a mirrored group.

2. A second SelectedTrackFXMenu on the X-Touch that basically ignores everyone else.

If I map FX on the Twister setup (#1) they should not impact the X-Touch (#2) and vice versa.

Note: this is only for SelectedTrackFXMenu.

Thanks FB, this is exactly the feedback I'm looking for.

Some of the Associated Zones fall obviously into one camp or the other.

Then there are ones like SelectedTrackFXMenu that could go either way.

Hoping to find consensus for these, thereby allowing everyone enough flexibility, whilst maintaining consistency.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New Exp build is up.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

Hopefully put everything back the way it was for the Associated Zones we've been discussing.

Let me know if anything doesn't work the way you think it should, including banking.

i) Folder and VCA now working correctly. They span surfaces and the ToggleSpill commands are working properly. If it was possible to offset their starting channel, so that the Parents/Leaders appeared nearer the centre of the setup, that would achieve the same thing as @freex and I were after by putting them in the Advanced section.

ii) TrackReceive and TrackSend now working across all surfaces in Group.

Could I suggest that the Global modifier only have a latched mode (no momentary). That way the red LED display will correctly indicate that you're in Global (Track) mode. At the moment, you can hold it down (like any other modifier) put the whole setup into Global mode, release the button and have no indication that you're in Global mode. The red LED display reverts to SE as soon as you let go of the Global button, but it stays on GL if latched.

iii) TrackFX still broken.

iv) ToggleUseGroupModifiers doesn't seem to do anything. Modifiers on all surfaces remain global, not restricted to the Group.

v) Banking needs to be restricted to the Group, not global.

vi) It doesn't make any sense to have the SelectedTrackFXMenu Broadcast/Listen globally. It should be in the Advanced section with the other SelectedTrack stuff so that it can be restricted to a Group.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

i) Folder and VCA now working correctly. They span surfaces and the ToggleSpill commands are working properly. If it was possible to offset their starting channel, so that the Parents/Leaders appeared nearer the centre of the setup, that would achieve the same thing as @freex and I were after by putting them in the Advanced section.

ii) TrackReceive and TrackSend now working across all surfaces in Group.

Could I suggest that the Global modifier only have a latched mode (no momentary). That way the red LED display will correctly indicate that you're in Global (Track) mode. At the moment, you can hold it down (like any other modifier) put the whole setup into Global mode, release the button and have no indication that you're in Global mode. The red LED display reverts to SE as soon as you let go of the Global button, but it stays on GL if latched.

iii) TrackFX still broken.

iv) ToggleUseGroupModifiers doesn't seem to do anything. Modifiers on all surfaces remain global, not restricted to the Group.

v) Banking needs to be restricted to the Group, not global.

vi) It doesn't make any sense to have the SelectedTrackFXMenu Broadcast/Listen globally. It should be in the Advanced section with the other SelectedTrack stuff so that it can be restricted to a Group.

Cool, thanks for the feedback.

Consensus is starting to build towards the optimal solution

[Geoff Waddington]

OK, little use case to solve.

If you have an MCU and an extender, you just set the MCU to local modifiers, and the Listeners will fall in.

However, in the MFT/iPad case, where they are cross Broadcasting, you can't set them both to local.

Maybe we need another Action, ToggleBroadcastModifiers, so that you can specifically designate a Surface as the "Master" modifier source.

Suggestions/ideas ?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

OK, little use case to solve.

If you have an MCU and an extender, you just set the MCU to local modifiers, and the Listeners will fall in.

I don't think I understand what you mean by "fall in". If you set the MCU to local modifiers, the modifiers will only affect the MCU, not the extenders.

However, in the MFT/iPad case, where they are cross Broadcasting, you can't set them both to local.

If you set the extenders to local modifiers in the first example, they don't start listening to the MCU.

Maybe we need another Action, ToggleBroadcastModifiers, so that you can specifically designate a Surface as the "Master" modifier source.

I'm not clear how this would help. If ToggleBroadcastModifiers allows you to switch the broadcast of modifiers on and off how does it differ from ToggleUseLocalModifiers in result.

What's needed is a way to restrict the broadcast or listening of modifiers to Group members or a way of telling a surface to only listen to another particular surface for modifiers.

On another point, I've run into a bit of bind trying to make the two C4s into a Group. I wanted to Group them together so that they would GoHome together and (hopefully) that I could have modifier buttons on one but not the other. So far, so good.

However, I don't want GoFXSlot to be broadcast from one C4 to the other, so that I can choose different FX from the FXMenu on either. Here's the bind, in order for either C4 to use it's own FXMenu locally, I have to tick the FXSlot box and in doing that the C4 now listens to the other C4's FXMenu choices.

Also, ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping now seems to default to off, which is fine, but unexpected., Okay that was weird. ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping still defaults to on. Not sure what caused that.

Okay, further investigation reveals that putting the C4s into a Group and activating any Listen checkbox cause the "OnInitialization ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping" line in the Zone to be ignored. Probably best to abandon my plans of C4 Grouping

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

I don't think I understand what you mean by "fall in". If you set the MCU to local modifiers, the modifiers will only affect the MCU, not the extenders.


If you set the extenders to local modifiers in the first example, they don't start listening to the MCU.



I'm not clear how this would help. If ToggleBroadcastModifiers allows you to switch the broadcast of modifiers on and off how does it differ from ToggleUseLocalModifiers in result.

What's needed is a way to restrict the broadcast or listening of modifiers to Group members or a way of telling a surface to only listen to another particular surface for modifiers.

First off, none of this works properly yet, so don't go by any results you see currently

The idea was to get ToggleUseLocalModifiers to do double duty.

You would set local modifiers on in the Broadcaster, and any Listeners that did not have local modifiers on would get their modifiers from the Broadcaster.

Put another way, the Broadcaster would intervene and not let the Listeners get as far as global modifiers, the Broadcaster would become the global modifier source from the Listener's perspective.

This would work fine in the MCU/extender use case, where there is a strict hierarchy, but falls apart in the Twister/iPad scenario where they Broadcast to each other, which one is the definitive source for modifiers, unless they both have local modifiers turned on.

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

On another point, I've run into a bit of bind trying to make the two C4s into a Group. I wanted to Group them together so that they would GoHome together and (hopefully) that I could have modifier buttons on one but not the other. So far, so good.

However, I don't want GoFXSlot to be broadcast from one C4 to the other, so that I can choose different FX from the FXMenu on either. Here's the bind, in order for either C4 to use it's own FXMenu locally, I have to tick the FXSlot box and in doing that the C4 now listens to the other C4's FXMenu choices.

Yeah, that's why the rethinking of the FXMenu behaviour.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Okay, further investigation reveals that putting the C4s into a Group and activating any Listen checkbox cause the "OnInitialization ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping" line in the Zone to be ignored. Probably best to abandon my plans of C4 Grouping

Don't forget, you have to enable it in the Broadcaster as well.

As soon as you enter the Broadcaster/Listener world, the Broadcaster must be explicitly told to Listen to itself for anything the Broadcaster itself is interested in.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

First off, none of this works properly yet, so don't go by any results you see currently

Doh! Maybe lead with that next time

The idea was to get ToggleUseLocalModifiers to do double duty.

You would set local modifiers on in the Broadcaster, and any Listeners that did not have local modifiers on would get their modifiers from the Broadcaster.

Sounds like a plan

This would work fine in the MCU/extender use case, where there is a strict hierarchy, but falls apart in the Twister/iPad scenario where they Broadcast to each other, which one is the definitive source for modifiers, unless they both have local modifiers turned on.

So they both have local modifiers turned on and Broadcast/Listen to each other, but don't Broadcast/Listen to/from anywhere else. Sounds good.

Yeah, that's why the rethinking of the FXMenu behaviour.

I see.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Don't forget, you have to enable it in the Broadcaster as well.

As soon as you enter the Broadcaster/Listener world, the Broadcaster must be explicitly told to Listen to itself for anything the Broadcaster itself is interested in.

The check boxes for FocusedFX are unchecked everywhere, so I don't really understand what you're getting at. As soon as I create a Group, FocusedFXMapping starts working, despite being disabled by OnInitialization ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Doh! Maybe lead with that next time

Good point

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

So they both have local modifiers turned on and Broadcast/Listen to each other, but don't Broadcast/Listen to/from anywhere else. Sounds good.

No, that's the problem.

You must set one Surface only to use local modifiers, which might be OK, just not sure that works for all use cases.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

The check boxes for FocusedFX are unchecked everywhere, so I don't really understand what you're getting at. As soon as I create a Group, FocusedFXMapping starts working, despite being disabled by OnInitialization ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping.

That's because, as you soon as you create a Group with FocusedFX unchecked everywhere, you end up with no one Listening anywhere.

OnInitialization ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping gets Broadcast to no one if nothing is checked.

That means it does not get disabled anywhere.

[Funkybot]

This might sound dumb, but would it be possible to have 2 FX slot variations on the Advanced screen:

1. FX Slot (Broadcast+Listen)
2. FX Slot (Listen Locally Only)

...that way, GoHome and others can be broadcast, but you could still map 2 different FX on 2 different C4's.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

That's because, as you soon as you create a Group with FocusedFX unchecked everywhere, you end up with no one Listening anywhere.

OnInitialization ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping gets Broadcast to no one if nothing is checked.

That means is does not get disabled anywhere.

So if I make a Group with FocusedFX unchecked, I should get rid of of OnInitialization ToggleFocusedFXMapping?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

This might sound dumb, but would it be possible to have 2 FX slot variations on the Advanced screen:

1. FX Slot (Broadcast+Listen)
2. FX Slot (Listen Locally Only)

...that way, GoHome and others can be broadcast, but you could still map 2 different FX on 2 different C4's.

…Or just default local listening of everything to On.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

This might sound dumb, but would it be possible to have 2 FX slot variations on the Advanced screen:

1. FX Slot (Broadcast+Listen)
2. FX Slot (Listen Locally Only)

...that way, GoHome and others can be broadcast, but you could still map 2 different FX on 2 different C4's.

I think a better solution is to get SelectedTrackFXMenu Broadcaster/Listener semantics straightened out.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

So if I make a Group with FocusedFX unchecked, I should get rid of of OnInitialization ToggleFocusedFXMapping?

If you do that Focused FX Mapping will take place everywhere.

I thought you wanted to disable it.

If you want disable it, keep OnInitialization ToggleFocusedFXMapping in the Broadcaster Zone only and check FocusedFX for all surfaces in the Group, including the Broadcaster.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

If you do that Focused FX Mapping will take place everywhere.

I thought you wanted to disable it.

If you want disable it, keep OnInitialization ToggleFocusedFXMapping in the Broadcaster Zone only and check FocusedFX for all surfaces in the Group, including the Broadcaster.

Ah, got it I was confusing "listens to" with "Enable".

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

…Or just default local listening of everything to On.

Wouldn't we then need a second set of options for each action for use-cases where we wanted to turn local listening off and just have it broadcast only? The goal of my suggestion was to keep the baby AND the bathwater, but just throw another rubber duckie into the tub.

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I think a better solution is to get SelectedTrackFXMenu Broadcaster/Listener semantics straightened out.

I'm definitely open to suggestions. From what I'm gathering:

1. We want SelectedTrackFXMenu to not be at the page level and to broadcast/listen. Seems like there's broad consensus here.

2. We need a broadcast/listen version of GoFXSlot for the "mirrored surfaces" use-case. So in that use-case, GoFXSlot needs to broadcast and listen on all surfaces in the group. This works right now.

3. There's another distinct SelectedTrackFXMenu use-case for "two of the same surfaces operating two different FX independently". In that example, we'd still want SelectedTrackFXMenu to broadcast/listen and not be page level, but we'd require the GoFXSlot action to function locally on both surfaces. But other actions still may need to broadcast/listen between surfaces.

If we default turn local listening on for everything, then we'd need a way to shut it off for each type of action, which seems like it could double the complexity. Whereas, if we limit this to being unique to the GoFXSlot action, then a local only variant of that and a broadcast variant seem like decent solutions to me.

If that's the crux of it, I'm definitely open to a better solution than just having two options for FX Slot but it seems like the most simple solution I could come up with.

Unless we say "GoFXSlot" is special and always defaults to LocalListening just for that action, but then you couldn't broadcast to another surface, which seems like another valid use-case. I feel like we need both options and more granularity for GoFXSlot. A way to distinguish between local only but also broadcastable.

Maybe a dropdown next to GoFXSlot checkbox with options for:
1. Broadcast/Listen (default)
2. Listens to local surface only

[Geoff Waddington]

I think it's time to explain some internals.

When you designate a Surface a Broadcaster, it Broadcasts everything, all the time, to all of its Listeners (including itself, if it is in the Listeners Surface list).

It's the Listeners that decide what to listen to.

I think all we need to do is add a new checkbox for FXMenu, called, remarkably, FXMenu

This would allow us to completely decouple each Listener independently for FXSlot and FXMenu.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I think it's time to explain some internals.

When you designate a Surface a Broadcaster, it Broadcasts everything, all the time, to all of its Listeners (including itself, if it is in the Listeners Surface list).

It's the Listeners that decide what to listen to.

I think all we need to do is add a new checkbox for FXMenu, called, remarkably, FXMenu

This would allow us to completely decouple each Listener independently for FXSlot and FXMenu.

I'm not really clear how having a checkbox for FXMenu will solve the issue of needing to have a surface Listen to it's own FXSlot commands but not those of another surface in the Group.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

I'm not really clear how having a checkbox for FXMenu will solve the issue of needing to have a surface Listen to it's own FXSlot commands but not those of another surface in the Group.

You're right, that doesn't do it.

Looks like LocalFXSlot is indeed the answer.

[edit] And I think we should rename FXSlot to FXMenu, which will include FXSlot, unless LocalFXSlot is checked.

Does that cover all of the use cases ?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

You're right, that doesn't do it.

Looks like LocalFXSlot is indeed the answer.

[edit] And I think we should rename FXSlot to FXMenu, which will include FXSlot, unless LocalFXSlot is checked.

Does that cover all of the use cases ?

Good for me

[Funkybot]

We know I'm good!

[MixMonkey]

I'm trying out Learn in the latest EXP version and keep getting into an endless loop with the "unsaved parameters" dialog box.

The initial Learn (from the dialog box) goes ok and save works, but when I try to re-enter Learn Mode to add/edit controls, I get into the endless loop. The box re-appears an endless number of times whether I hit yes or no and I have to force quit Reaper to recover.

I'm using this to Learn manually or try to edit:

GoAssociatedZone LearnFXParams

I don't have any Groups set, no Advanced mode stuff in use.