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08-31-2006, 08:17 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: traîne mes guêtres en Québec...
Posts: 5,390
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If you had to record drums with 2 mic only...
What would they be and how would you place them?
The drummer is exceptional, the kit is a very good sounding custome made studio kit, the space is barely soso (low ceiling, narrow but long space... but with adequate amount of absorbtion material).
Any suggestions and what result I could expect?
Thanks.
Last edited by bullshark; 08-31-2006 at 08:21 AM.
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08-31-2006, 08:23 AM
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#2
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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I always attempt to get my drum sounds' "glue" from an M/S pair. I make an imaginary line splitting the set that goes right thru the middle of the kick and snare. I try and get it about head level in the room, JUST far enough away from the set so that it balances the drums a bit. If theres a cymbal that also intersects this line, I will often raise the mics and maybe even get it way above the kit.
But if you can keep them around head level, you would be surprised at what a "close mic" sound you could get from the kick drum, its amazing. You can always use reafir in gate mode to extract more thump from the kick and toms on some duplicated tracks.
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08-31-2006, 08:34 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: traîne mes guêtres en Québec...
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Front, head level inline with the snare and kick and "earball" it from there for fine tuning, got it. What is M/S pair?
Thanks pipe.
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08-31-2006, 09:31 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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What pipeline said ... great advice!
And if you have mics with a good response range and the ability to capture more room tone (not pencil, or hypercardioid), you should be able to get a nice sound and good stereo image
I also found that I had to use the "pad" on my interface to avoid clipping my pres when miking drums this way (turned out pretty nice)
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08-31-2006, 10:59 AM
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#5
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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I've had decent success with a single sm57 (so if you had two I would try the same things with two at 90 degrees tip to tip), placing the mic about 3-4' in front of the kit (about 2-3' off the ground) and pointed between the snare and kick.. gradually adjust the angle/position til the levels get decent.
But with 4 mics, it gets soooo much easier..
-Justin
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08-31-2006, 12:06 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: traîne mes guêtres en Québec...
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I have no dynamic mic in my small kit (which only contain a Countryman, a shotgun and a medium diaphragm condenser) and I always wanted an SM57...So, two of those would work alright I gather from reading here?
Still haven't found what M/S stands for, google did not help this time...
Mono/Stereo? Why?
Last edited by bullshark; 08-31-2006 at 12:19 PM.
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08-31-2006, 12:51 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullshark
Still haven't found what M/S stands for, google did not help this time...
Mono/Stereo? Why?
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from the Rane Professional Audio Reference
M/S or M-S (mid-side or mono-stereo) microphone technique. Developed in the mid '50s by the Danish radio engineer Holger Lauridsen (H. Lauridsen & F. Schlegel, "Stereophonie und richtungsdiffuse Klangwiedergabe," Gravesaner Blätter, 1956, Nr. V, August, S.28-50) , a method for capturing stereophonic sound using two microphones. One microphone with a cardioid response (although any polar pattern will work) is aimed straight ahead toward the sound source (this is the mid or mono M part), and a second microphone with a figure-8 (or bipolar) response is placed so that the two lobes are directed toward the sides (this is the side or stereoS part). The two signals are then combined using an M-S matrix circuit that yields two signals: M+S and M-S
http://www.rane.com/par-m.html
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08-31-2006, 02:54 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
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Thanks malcomj. Reading this I think trying to record stereo is more than I bargained for; think I'll go with a single SM57 instead.
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08-31-2006, 03:30 PM
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#9
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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M/S is tricky, but it guarantees mono compatiability. Back in the day you would often use 3 channels on a mixing console to "decode " it
The M mic, which you would have in cardioid pattern, pointing at the drums would go to a channel panned center
The S mic would be in figure 8 and pointed 90 degrees to the drums, this would be multed to two channels, one panned left and a phase inverted copy panned right. You throw the console in mono, mute the M channel, and mess with the two S faders till they completely cancelled out because of polarity, phase whatever. Put the console back in stereo and slowly raise the M channel till you get the stereo image you want..trippindicular!
Forget all that though, you will notice, when you download reaper, some JS plugs called Kanaka MS Decoder and Kanaka MS Encoder...just use the decoder one on a M/S track recorded as a stereo pair and mess with the options till you like it...Hit your mono playback and youll notice you still got drums! Not always so easy to do with spaced pairs, where throwing into mono can decimate them (if you arent real careful setting them up )
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09-01-2006, 01:21 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamburg
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There was such a good thread recently somewhere about micing a kit with just 2 mics - now where was it.....
Anmyway the jist of it was this:
Place one good mic above the snare in a position in front of the drummers head but so he doesn't hit it. Listen to that with headphones and ajust the position untill its in balace with the toms and HH.
Now the second mic is an OH and should go high up above the floor tom and be moved around to balance with the ride, floor tom AND at the same time listen in mono to both and check there is no cancelation.
Can't remember what happed with the kick now I come to think of it though. Maybe a third channel? mixed with the first mic? (I'm assuming that inputs aren't available)
Have a go....
BTW I love M/S micing but you need a decent figure of 8 mic to make it worth while.
Cheers
M
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09-01-2006, 04:10 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: BG
Posts: 404
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my opinion (i have recorded drums with 2 mics):
one mic - in front or IN the bass-drum
2nd - find some place that responds to "the middle" of other drums and cymbals
all parts of the drumset are with approximately equal power, exept the bassdrum, and they will sound great even with 1 mic, but the bassdrum needs separate recording
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09-01-2006, 04:14 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2006
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i was in a big studio once...
best drums i heard ever.
just 2 mics ohd/xy ....triggered kik drum.
the kit was in a like a loading dock lol.
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09-01-2006, 07:10 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
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I think i´d got with pipeline´s MS, or an XY depending on your Mic choices.
But then i would record some single hits of the Bd, close miked. And of the snare too. Just a couple if needed.
You can then trigger these later, and mix them in, if you need some more punch.
If it´s jazz. I´d just go with an MS or XY. with no close single hits.
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09-01-2006, 08:46 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NA - North Augusta South Carolina
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I concur with scum (a sentence I've never considered before). For two mics:
One mic in the kick; balance with one mic overhead pointed at the snare. Adjust the angle to balance the hat with the ride.
Try starting with the OH mic slighly behind the drummer's head, and use it (his skull/body) to tame the hat/ride.
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09-01-2006, 08:49 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Port Neches, Texas
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One Mic above the drummer's head, as stated earlier. Place the second mic about four feet in front of the kit, aimed between the kick and the hihats, somewhat low to the floor, around 18" or so. Play with distances and hieghts to fine tune. I love this sound and still use it fairly often. It's sort of a Bonham-y sound.
The mic in front will pick up the "power" from the bottom heads, and pick up some of the beater attack from the kick, believe it or not. Very powerful kick sound.
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09-01-2006, 11:19 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: traîne mes guêtres en Québec...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio
M/S is tricky, but it guarantees mono compatiability. Back in the day you would often use 3 channels on a mixing console to "decode " it
The M mic, which you would have in cardioid pattern, pointing at the drums would go to a channel panned center
The S mic would be in figure 8 and pointed 90 degrees to the drums, this would be multed to two channels, one panned left and a phase inverted copy panned right. You throw the console in mono, mute the M channel, and mess with the two S faders till they completely cancelled out because of polarity, phase whatever. Put the console back in stereo and slowly raise the M channel till you get the stereo image you want..trippindicular!
Forget all that though, you will notice, when you download reaper, some JS plugs called Kanaka MS Decoder and Kanaka MS Encoder...just use the decoder one on a M/S track recorded as a stereo pair and mess with the options till you like it...Hit your mono playback and youll notice you still got drums! Not always so easy to do with spaced pairs, where throwing into mono can decimate them (if you arent real careful setting them up )
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This was really helpfull in helping me understand the concept, thanks for that.
I'm very enclined to try this M/S method, just because I'm very curious as to what result I could get from that. Only fly in the ointement is that figure 8 mic are very expensive, too expensive for just experimenting with. But if I can find a place where I can rent one, I will certainly try this method.
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09-01-2006, 03:19 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Port Neches, Texas
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Inexpensive Figure 8's abound. Give me a few and I'll see If I can muster up a few links.
If you do m/s ONLY, you won't get much of a kick sound. You will get a very nice image, though. You may be able to use pipe's ReaFir drum trigger trick to fake a kick.
Try the way I described above, I think you'll be impressed!
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Last edited by fluffy; 09-01-2006 at 03:44 PM.
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09-01-2006, 03:32 PM
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#18
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Mortal
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wickenburg, Arizona
Posts: 14,047
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yessir, like the rest of the replies, IF you can get just one more mic, you can pull what is being described, or also what many call "Fletcher's three mic drums" I think which manning refers to
http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html
If the drummer is up to it, this will be awesome
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09-01-2006, 08:25 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: traîne mes guêtres en Québec...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluffy
Inexpensive Figure 8's abound. Give me a few and I'll see If I can muster up a few links.
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I'm listening.
Quote:
If you do m/s ONLY, you won't get much of a kick sound. You will get a very nice image, though. You may be able to use pipe's ReaFir drum trigger trick to fake a kick.
Try the way I described above, I think you'll be impressed!
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Of course I will, as well as other suggestions as long as they involve 2 mics or less. I just don't have the pres channel, or audio input for that matter, to go for more than 2.
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09-02-2006, 06:23 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,957
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another idea...you could try the old way of one mic drums as a lot of recordings done in 60's used as i was told by an engr once.
it really shows up the room tho. put the mic in front of the kit finding the sweeet spot. (trigger kik..and/or snare also.)
heres the nifty bit.
then theres nothing stopping you recording another track of drums.
for example first is just kik/snare/ride.
second is reinforcing the first with breaks where needed.
third even...cymbals.
of course you can do this with more than one mic also.
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09-02-2006, 11:30 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,373
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I Personaly Don't Like Triggering, So ....
I'd Go:
2 Mics (For Rock, etc.):
1 Condenser Overhead (Pointing To Whatever Being Considered As The Sweet Spot )
1 Bass Drum (A Quality Mic That Can Hold The SPLs, Sounds Good, etc.)
3 Mics:
2 Condenser Overhead, Symetricaly To An Imaginary Line, Through The Middle Of The Snare And The Kick (To Get The Right Stereo Image). Either XY Or For More Stereo Spread AB (Monaural Compatibility Is The Issue Here, Though)
I Don't Got A Figre-8 (Too Expencive), So This Is My Setup, But
1 Bass Drum (Same As Above, Can Leave It Out For Jazz, Where The Kick Only Plays Accent, IMO)
In General M/S Seems Ideal.
Some Links To The SAE Site.
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_m.../placement.htm
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/
The M/S Technique Is Also Expalined In There Somewhere.
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09-08-2006, 02:51 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: traîne mes guêtres en Québec...
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Thanks fluffy. Unfortunately, I couldn't find those Nady mic anywhere in my country and MF or ZZsound won't ship here. And I couldn't find any figure 8 mic for below $1000.00 CDN and even then, they'd be on special order so I can't try them as they'd be non retournable.
Except for the Samson CO3, but I'm not sure I would trust a multi pattern mic (SuperCardioid, Omni and figure-8) that sold for 140 bucks. I'll think about it.
I am now SM57 equipped thought
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07-16-2017, 08:12 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3,202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullshark
I have no dynamic mic in my small kit (which only contain a Countryman, a shotgun and a medium diaphragm condenser) and I always wanted an SM57...So, two of those would work alright I gather from reading here?
Still haven't found what M/S stands for, google did not help this time...
Mono/Stereo? Why?
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Google mid/side.
It is usually done with a mic that has a figure-8 pickup pattern, and a omni or cardoid mic.
I've also seen it done with 3 cardoids, but that's a bit tricky to get right.
You can get a decent multipattern (figure-8, Omni, Cardoid) mic for around $200. I'm thinking of a Studio Projects B3.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...ser-microphone
Last edited by Philbo King; 07-17-2017 at 06:52 AM.
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07-16-2017, 08:18 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3,202
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(duplicate post)
Last edited by Philbo King; 07-17-2017 at 06:47 AM.
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