Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion - Page 495

lubvic · 09-09-2022, 05:03 AM

Hi All,
Just a simple question, i' trying to set a command to achieve a simple task

Shift+Solo Reaper _SWS...first_action
Shift+Solo Reaper _SWS...second_action

To select parent folder track and then, to select all tracks into folder and show only them on TCP and MCP, if i put this into folder zone, nothing happens, same if i put it into buttons or elsewhere.
The only thing that seems to work is to bind this actions to a single button, like F1.
Is there anything i'm doing wrong?

MixMonkey · 09-09-2022, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lubvic

Hi All,
Just a simple question, i' trying to set a command to achieve a simple task

Shift+Solo Reaper _SWS...first_action
Shift+Solo Reaper _SWS...second_action

To select parent folder track and then, to select all tracks into folder and show only them on TCP and MCP, if i put this into folder zone, nothing happens, same if i put it into buttons or elsewhere.
The only thing that seems to work is to bind this actions to a single button, like F1.
Is there anything i'm doing wrong?

Though you haven't shown exatly what SWS folder actions you're using, I'd guess they're operating on the selected track. In the folder Zone, Solo is followed by the | character to indicate its channel number. There's nowhere in the SWS Reaper action to reflect this.

You could try something like this:

Code:

Shift+Solo|     TrackUniqueSelect
Shift+Solo|     Reaper _SWS...first_action
Shift+Solo|     Reaper _SWS...Second_action

I'm not sure if it will work, but worth a try. Otherwise use a single button and select the track first.

lubvic · 09-09-2022, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Though you haven't shown exatly what SWS folder actions you're using, I'd guess they're operating on the selected track. In the folder Zone, Solo is followed by the | character to indicate its channel number. There's nowhere in the SWS Reaper action to reflect this.

You could try something like this:

Code:

Shift+Solo|     TrackUniqueSelect
Shift+Solo|     Reaper _SWS...first_action
Shift+Solo|     Reaper _SWS...Second_action

I'm not sure if it will work, but worth a try. Otherwise use a single button and select the track first.

Yes, sorry, Solo is folliwed by | and yes, i tried to do it on a selected track, no way... I'l try your suggestions, even if are almost the same already did, otherwise, i'll use a single function button :-)

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtmanActive

Count me out.
I'll be the first one to uninstall CSI completely.
Under no circumstances will I allow any plug-in in Reaper to hog the CPU like that.
My projects usually have about 200 tracks and 500 FXs running at all times. Every ounce of CPU is precious to me. I already installed/tried/uninstalled many community add-ons for Reaper exactly because of this. Looks good on empty Reaper project, doesn't hold up in real-world usage.

What I'm trying to say here is that invasive, CPU intensive actions like that should be strictly optional so users can choose if they find it useful or not. Otherwise, all-or-nothing approach can just lead to frustrated users leaving when they hit the buffer-underruns on playback or double loading times on project load.

It is one thing to control Reaper. It is completely another to scan all FXs and their parameters on project load.

Just my 2 cents.

Haha, I was fully expecting MixMonkey to be first in line on this, you beat him by over an hour

Anyway, since I was already anticipating this from him, and now you, I've already planned for an opt out.

Like so:

Code:

Version 2.0

NoAutoScan

MidiSurface "XTouch Universal" 12 11 
MidiSurface "SCE24" 11 10 
OSCSurface "iPhone" 8000 9000 168.192.2.1

Page "HomePage"
"XTouch Universal" 8 0 "X-Touch.mst" "X-Touch"

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Thanks for the SCE24 Zones Funkybot, with those I was able to do some testing with a bit of load.

I tried about 20 UAD plugins which I own and you had Zones for.

It added a couple of seconds to project load time.

Obviously that won't scale well at all.

So, we go to plan B.

On startup we will scan all of the tracks in the project, and calculate the Step Sizes for any FX we encounter.

If you have 20 different FX in a project, you will see an increase in project load time of the aforementioned couple of seconds or so.

Then, every time you add an FX that has not been previously calculated, CSI will calculate the Step Sizes for that FX.

Will have to test it in the real world, boots on the ground sense, but it looks reasonable from here, unless you use a ton of different plugins in a given project

Definitely don't' want to take a performance hit in CSI. Rather than slow CSI and do everything dynamically on the fly, can this be linked to actions?

Going back to the original goal, I think we just want to take all the complicated stuff out of fx mapping. Dynamic, auto-mapping of unmapped FX would be great, but not if it's going to cause a hit to performance.

Originally, I was just happy to get an action to identify at which values there is a parameter step so I could copy and paste that manually into zones on tricky plugins. I still LOVE the idea of having CSI produce the list for me, but maybe it should be action-based with some user input.

1. Run some CSI helper action for FX mapping
2. Load the FX on a track
3. CSI outputs parameter steps/step sizes via a reaconsole window, where I can copy and paste into an EZFXZone, or CSI writes the stepped params to a .txt file for later reference by the parser
4. User turns the actions off and all future FX loading is back to normal

Similar to how the RawFXZone creation works. And I never use that feature in an actual project, always an empty one.

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyp24

Of those 500 FX, how many of them are different though? I'm pretty sure Geoff is saying that if you have 100 instances of ReaEQ (or whatever) it will count as 1 FX to scan. I also run large track counts for many projects, but almost all of them will have the same EQ and Compressor on.

Yup, that is correct.

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

I'm afraid I've completely lost track of what you're trying to achieve here

This seems to be an extremely complicated solution to address a very minor issue ie step sizes in certain plugin parameters.

Three points here:

Firstly, most stepped plugin parameters still respond to continuous (inc/dec) controller input, so are not unusable by default.

Secondly, if the user wishes to assign a stepped parameter to a push control, it would be a simple matter for them to find the push in the Zone file (which, presumably, is toggling between 0.0 and 1.0) and fill in the steps in between. Whilst there are undoubtably a few plugins where determining the step sizes is challenging, the great majority are simple.

Thirdly, once you get up to 10 or more steps, it becomes much easier to just use a continuous encoder with acceleration. I wasted a lot of time trying get 20+ step encoders to work properly before I realised it was much simpler to just not use steps.

What I'm trying to achieve is the best possible out of the box experience for a new user, in terms of responsive controls, etc., whilst maintaining all the complexity/flexibility for those who want it.

Let's use acceleration as an example.

The automated acceleration will only apply to EZFXZones.

I think it makes sense to include acceleration in the .mst, it's a very few lines that will be totally ignored in your use cases.

So, when using EZFXZones, the .mst will be searched first, but if there is a Default Acceleration in the EZFXZone, it will override the .mst one.

If there is a specific Acceleration for a parameter, it will override anything previously mentioned.

And if you think this is a futile exercise, I would invite you to watch this entire video, I did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sBMEFYKk8k

This is a sophisticated Reaper user who bought an X-Touch and just dove right in, very little, if any, research on the Wiki, etc.

This is not a diss on him, this is the reality we are facing, and keep in mind, this is a sophisticated user.

Can you imagine what a less sophisticated user might do.

My goal is to provide the maximum number of people possible, useful tools to use with Reaper, that's it, that's all.

I was, quite frankly, blown away by that video.

Changed my whole perspective on this project, and what it takes to make CSI useful outside of our tight, super savvy bunch

And, at risk of sounding condescending, I say to all involved heavily in the CSI project (not singling you out Mix), watch the damn video, it is guaranteed to alter your perspective !!

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Definitely don't' want to take a performance hit in CSI. Rather than slow CSI and do everything dynamically on the fly, can this be linked to actions?

Going back to the original goal, I think we just want to take all the complicated stuff out of fx mapping. Dynamic, auto-mapping of unmapped FX would be great, but not if it's going to cause a hit to performance.

Originally, I was just happy to get an action to identify at which values there is a parameter step so I could copy and paste that manually into zones on tricky plugins. I still LOVE the idea of having CSI produce the list for me, but maybe it should be action-based with some user input.

1. Run some CSI helper action for FX mapping
2. Load the FX on a track
3. CSI outputs parameter steps/step sizes via a reaconsole window, where I can copy and paste into an EZFXZone, or CSI writes the stepped params to a .txt file for later reference by the parser
4. User turns the actions off and all future FX loading is back to normal

Similar to how the RawFXZone creation works. And I never use that feature in an actual project, always an empty one.

Yup, understand, and I think you already have done this, but in case you haven't, watch this video, the entire thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sBMEFYKk8k

and then give me an honest answer to the question "Do you think a typical user will ever find that Action, let alone use it ?"

If it seems I'm pushing back hard on everyone, it's because I am

Steve Jobs said he learned everything he needed to know about user manuals working at Atari when they made arcade machines.

The user manual was a one liner below the coin slot:

"Insert quarter, avoid Klingons"

I've written iOS apps and, believe me, you have get very deep into Ux to build a successful one.

The CSI engine is great, now we have to make it accessible.

As stated earlier, savvy users can opt out.

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 07:04 AM

Let me say how lucky i am to be part of such a great community.

With everyone's involvement, we have built a formidable app that incorporates a lot of features that make our life with Reaper and control surfaces much more enjoyable and productive.

But there are other folks out there too.

Our new initiative with the Speech Action is a great example.

But, let's not forget about all the other users who don't use CSI because it is too arcane.

I'm thinking we can have our cake and eat it too.

We can continue to build features that help us, all the while also building features that help others.

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 07:14 AM

I'm 100% in favor of improving the out of the box CSI experience. Auto-FX mapping with steps would be absolutely huge and incredible. Just don't want to run into some performance hit if it can be avoided. Like if FX zones are created dynamically with step sizes, then I'd suggest automatically saving those so CSI can load them next time without any kind of performance hit. Probably where you were going anyway.

Still looking very forward to trying this out.

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

I'm 100% in favor of improving the out of the box CSI experience. Auto-FX mapping with steps would be absolutely huge and incredible. Just don't want to run into some performance hit if it can be avoided. Like if FX zones are created dynamically with step sizes, then I'd suggest automatically saving those so CSI can load them next time without any kind of performance hit. Probably where you were going anyway.

As far as where I was going, yup, you can take that to the bank

Maybe I'll even try to sneak it in today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Still looking very forward to trying this out.

Hopefully later today.

Navelpluisje · 09-09-2022, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Let me say how lucky i am to be part of such a great community.

With everyone's involvement, we have built a formidable app that incorporates a lot of features that make our life with Reaper and control surfaces much more enjoyable and productive.

But there are other folks out there too.

Our new initiative with the Speech Action is a great example.

But, let's not forget about all the other users who don't use CSI because it is too arcane.

I'm thinking we can have our cake and eat it too.

We can continue to build features that help us, all the while also building features that help others.

It's exactly this discussion why I started building my ReaSonus project. Just a 3 click install and that's it. Like mentioned here before, most users don't want to open a text editor to make changes. They just want it to work and if it doesn't, they will uninstall it again.

So I'm definitely on the it-should-work-out-of-the-box-without-opening-any-text-editor camp with the ability to have the savvy features as well

AtmanActive · 09-09-2022, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Code:

Version 2.0

NoAutoScan

MidiSurface "XTouch Universal" 12 11 
MidiSurface "SCE24" 11 10 
OSCSurface "iPhone" 8000 9000 168.192.2.1

Page "HomePage"
"XTouch Universal" 8 0 "X-Touch.mst" "X-Touch"

Thank you.
As long as there is NoAutoScan and it is properly documented, I'm happy.
Scan away!

MT4U · 09-09-2022, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Let me say how lucky i am to be part of such a great community.

With everyone's involvement, we have built a formidable app that incorporates a lot of features that make our life with Reaper and control surfaces much more enjoyable and productive.

But there are other folks out there too.

Our new initiative with the Speech Action is a great example.

But, let's not forget about all the other users who don't use CSI because it is too arcane.

I'm thinking we can have our cake and eat it too.

We can continue to build features that help us, all the while also building features that help others.

Been through a similar situation when I started with CSI, but I came with a programming background and got the invaluable help of you, funky bunch. I hope I'll soon be out of pre-production

and into music.

That's why I got into making my GUI for FX programming. I'll soon have a much more interesting version to share than the one I uploaded a month or so ago so anyone else can take advantage.

But the real thing behind the making of my GUI, is that in order to develop it, I had to get to understand CSI, and the learning process itself taught me a lot, about CSI, Reaper and music production itself.

I'm really oh so grateful that you guys have made my life beautifully complicated and I'm loving it.

And haven't been kicked out of the house yet.

Cheers to you all!

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 09:54 AM

New build is up.

CSI exp.zip

First cut at auto generation of step sizes.

It generates a file in the Zone folder for the surface with all of the values for each VST -- it currently only works for VST and VST3.

Code:

AutoStepSizes.txt

It works much like Reaper VST scan, it only happens once, then caches, but it updates the cache if it notices an FX it hasn't encountered before.

If you want to opt out, do this, I put it on a per Page basis for now, we can discuss and change it to global if that's what everyone wants:

Code:

Version 2.0

MidiSurface "XTouch Universal" 12 11 
MidiSurface "SCE24" 11 10 
OSCSurface "iPhone" 8000 9000 168.192.2.1

Page "HomePage" NoAutoScan
"XTouch Universal" 8 0 "X-Touch.mst" "X-Touch"

MT4U · 09-09-2022, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up.

CSI exp.zip

First cut at auto generation of step sizes.

It generates a file in the Zone folder for the surface with all of the values for each VST -- it currently only works for VST and VST3.

Code:

AutoStepSizes.txt

It works much like Reaper VST scan, it only happens once, then caches, but it updates the cache if it notices an FX it hasn't encountered before.

If you want to opt out, do this, I put it on a per Page basis for now, we can discuss and change it to global if that's what everyone wants:

Code:

Version 2.0

MidiSurface "XTouch Universal" 12 11 
MidiSurface "SCE24" 11 10 
OSCSurface "iPhone" 8000 9000 168.192.2.1

Page "HomePage" NoAutoScan
"XTouch Universal" 8 0 "X-Touch.mst" "X-Touch"

~~When is it supposed to generate the AutoStepSizes.txt? Upon loading Reaper?~~

Excellent. Just tried it and got this:

Code:

"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 3 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 4 0.000000 0.500000 
"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 5 0.000000 0.500000 
"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 8 0.000000 0.062500 0.125000 0.187500 0.250000 0.312500 0.375000 0.437500 0.500000 0.562500 0.625000 0.687500 0.750000 0.812500 0.875000 0.937500 1.000000 
"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 9 0.000000 0.041667 0.083333 0.125000 0.166667 0.208333 0.250000 0.291667 0.333333 0.375000 0.416667 0.458333 0.500000 0.541667 0.583333 0.625000 0.666667 0.708333 0.750000 0.791667 0.833333 0.875000 0.916667 0.958333 1.000000 
"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 10 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 11 0.000000 0.090909 0.181818 0.272727 0.363636 0.454545 0.545455 0.636364 0.727273 0.818182 0.909091 1.000000 
"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 13 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 14 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 15 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: ReaControlMIDI (Cockos)" 17 0.000000 1.000000

It's a test installation I have at the office. Will try it later on at the studio where there ARE plug-ins.

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 12:17 PM

As a proof of concept, this seems to be working well. It generated a 1,790 line AutoStepSizes.txt file. Took between 5 and 10 minutes.

A few thoughts:

1. Even though you described it well, I was still not expecting to just run and start doing stuff at first. Just unfamiliar, not bad.

2. Maybe when it's ready for primetime, offer the user an option/dialog at startup: "CSI would like to do a one time scan of your plugins, this may take several minutes but will allow for automatically map to your controllers. Do you want to proceed?"

3. It crashed the first time I ran it. I think it was scanning SoundToys EchoBoy. But I do see Echoboy in the file. Launched Reaper again and it picked up right where it left off. There was also a random "beep" out of Reaper. Not sure what that was.

4. At the moment, does this only look for step sizes for plugins where an FX.zon already exists?

5. This left out VST3 plugins, and a lot of others, but looking at the list, it seems like it found the VST2's with fx.zon's. So I think it's not picking up VST3 plugins on Windows. Like I didn't see Tone Projects Kelvin or Unisum in there, but I have FX.zon files for both and they have some stepped params.

6. It seems to differentiate plugins that are continuous "behind the scenes" versus those that are stepped on the GUI only. Example: the Arturia Tape-201 Mode Selector knob is stepped on the GUI, the Auto-Step scan didn't recognize that, but it still works fine. You just get continuous knob movement that wouldn't be allowed if you were editing with a mouse, but everything still works as expected.

7. I would suggest creating an "FX Zones" sub-folder under the surface zone (if one doesn't already exist) and placing the AutoStepSizes.txt file there. Once auto-mapping is doable, you'd probably want to place the EZFX.zon files in said folder, and maybe sub-folder again by manufacturer just to keep things tidy.

8. Now that I've run the process once and haven't changed anything, I'm not expecting it to run the next time I launch Reaper. But it does. It only takes a few seconds, but it's definitely running on subsequent loads with no changes.

9. I do think an On-Demand plugin scan action would be worth considering once things are further along.

...I'll keep posting back if I find anything, but this does seem to be [mostly] working as expected. Nice!

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

As a proof of concept, this seems to be working well. It generated a 1,790 line AutoStepSizes.txt file. Took between 5 and 10 minutes.

I suspected as much, that's downright painful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

A few thoughts:

1. Even though you described it well, I was still not expecting to just run and start doing stuff at first. Just unfamiliar, not bad.

2. Maybe when it's ready for primetime, offer the user an option/dialog at startup: "CSI would like to do a one time scan of your plugins, this may take several minutes but will allow for automatically map to your controllers. Do you want to proceed?"

I think I have a better idea, see end of post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

3. It crashed the first time I ran it. I think it was scanning SoundToys EchoBoy. But I do see Echoboy in the file. Launched Reaper again and it picked up right where it left off. There was also a random "beep" out of Reaper. Not sure what that was.

Ugggh, crashes verboten !!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

4. At the moment, does this only look for step sizes for plugins where an FX.zon already exists? This left out VST3 plugins, and a lot of others, but looking at the list, it seems like it found the ones with fx.zon's. Just curious.

Correct, it's based on Zone files.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

5. It seems to differentiate plugins that are continuous "behind the scenes" versus those that are stepped on the GUI only. Example: the Arturia Tape-201 Mode Selector knob is stepped on the GUI, the Auto-Step scan didn't recognize that, but it still works fine. You just get continuous knob movement that wouldn't be allowed if you were editing with a mouse, but everything still works as expected.

Yes, it's based on internals, if the plugin manufacturer only made the steps on the GUI, I would expect this behaviour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

6. I would suggest creating an "FX Zones" sub-folder under the surface zone (if one doesn't already exist) and placing the AutoStepSizes.txt file there. Once auto-mapping is doable, you'd probably want to place the EZFX.zon files in said folder, and maybe sub-folder again by manufacturer just to keep things tidy.

Yup, great idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

7. Now that I've run the process once and haven't changed anything, I'm not expecting it to run the next time I launch Reaper. But it does. It only takes a few seconds, but it's definitely running on subsequent loads with no changes.

It sill has to load the AutoStepSizes.txt, which I expect is massive in your system

What is the AutoStepSizes.txt file size on your system ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

...I'll keep posting back if I find anything, but this does seem to be [mostly] working as expected. Nice!

Cool, good first steps.

The 3 rules of software development:

Make it go -- check

Make it right -- have to fix crash.

Make it fast --

part1) As far as after the scan has been completed, it still has to load AutoStepSizes.txt, kind of analogous to what you see when Reaper loads the VSTs, it's way better than when you scan, but it still takes a few seconds.

part2) I think we can improve things immensely by time limiting the upfront scans.

Say we place a 3 second elapsed time limit.

That means that you will get 3 seconds worth of scanned items per startup.

Over some reasonably small number of launches, the list will complete, just as you saw after the crash.

[edit] Just re read your post and saw the edits about VST3, I remember seeing something in a post somewhere about VST3 weirdness, will investigate.

It currently only supports VST2 and VST3, what got left out besides VST3 ?

Gorshwin · 09-09-2022, 12:50 PM

Sorry, but Im new and couldnt find a thread based on my specific question. Im using Reaper (trying to) with the SSL UF8 control surface. I use the Logic configuration and have also tried using the Studio One config. When I use the Logic config, everytime I move a fader, the pitch of the instrument changes instead of the volume!
Any help or suggestions? This is making me nuts.
Thanks in advance.

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 12:53 PM

The AutoStepSizes file is 118kb.

Regarding VST3, I do have about 29 VST3 plugin FX.zon's on that surface so some of them definitely had params steps. Even if only just the bypass toggle. But not one of them made it in. Note: I have 235 total FX.zon's.

I wonder if the scan is "stuck" somewhere or crashing before it even gets to the VST3 plugins and just keeps repeating. If needed, maybe think about creating some kind of log file/debugger for testing.

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorshwin

Sorry, but Im new and couldnt find a thread based on my specific question. Im using Reaper (trying to) with the SSL UF8 control surface. I use the Logic configuration and have also tried using the Studio One config. When I use the Logic config, everytime I move a fader, the pitch of the instrument changes instead of the volume!
Any help or suggestions? This is making me nuts.
Thanks in advance.

Faders on MIDI surfaces use pitchbend messages. This tells me you don't have the device disabled in Reaper's Preferences.

Go to Preferences -> Audio -> MIDI Devices, then disable the UF8 for both input and output ports. That sounds counter-intuitive, but CSI needs access to the ports to work. If Reaper is using the ports, CSI can't access your surface. Then restart Reaper and make sure you've got CSI configured correctly as per the Wiki's Installation and Setup page.

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

The AutoStepSizes file is 118kb.

Regarding VST3, I do have about 29 VST3 plugin FX.zon's on that surface so some of them definitely had params steps. Even if only just the bypass toggle. But not one of them made it in.

I wonder if the scan is "stuck" somewhere or crashing before it even gets to the VST3 plugins and just keeps repeating. If needed, maybe think about creating some kind of log file/debugger for testing.

I suppose it's possible it's getting stuck, but I'm inclined to think it's simply not recognizing the VST3s.

I'll try something here to test.

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 02:35 PM

New build is up.

CSI Exp.zip

Possible fix for VST3 detection issues.

New auto scan strategy -- CSI never spends more than 5 seconds scanning.

This means AutoStepSizes.txt will fill out over time.

Funkybot, you have a huge dataset, can you delete your AutoStepSizes.txt, and see if this works, I don't have enough data to check it.

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 02:55 PM

Ok, let's talk about optional mods to the .mst files.

Seems like the encoder value definition could be centralized, I've never seen anyone use different values for like encoders.

We also want to add acceleration and a step size -- aka delta.

So maybe we could replace this:

Code:

Widget Rotary1
	Encoder b0 10 7f [ > 01-0f < 41-4f ]
	FB_Encoder b0 10 7f
WidgetEnd

Widget Rotary2
	Encoder b0 11 7f [ > 01-0f < 41-4f ]
	FB_Encoder b0 11 7f
WidgetEnd

Widget Rotary3
	Encoder b0 12 7f [ > 01-0f < 41-4f ]
	FB_Encoder b0 12 7f
WidgetEnd

Widget Rotary4
	Encoder b0 13 7f [ > 01-0f < 41-4f ]
	FB_Encoder b0 13 7f
WidgetEnd

Widget Rotary5
	Encoder b0 14 7f [ > 01-0f < 41-4f ]
	FB_Encoder b0 14 7f
WidgetEnd

Widget Rotary6
	Encoder b0 15 7f [ > 01-0f < 41-4f ]
	FB_Encoder b0 15 7f
WidgetEnd

   ...

with something like this:

Code:

StepSize
    Rotary 0.003
    JogWheel 0.005
StepSizeEnd

EncoderSteps
    Rotary > 01-0f < 41-4f
    JogWheel > 01-07 < 41-47
EncoderStepsEnd

AccelerationValues
    Rotary   0.001 0.005 0.010 0.015 0.025 0.050 0.1 0.25 0.5
    JogWheel 0.001 0.005 0.010 0.015 0.025 0.050 0.1 0.25 0.5
AccelerationValuesEnd

    ....

Widget Rotary1
        StepSize          Rotary
        EncoderStep       Rotary
        AccelerationValue Rotary

	Encoder b0 10 7f
	FB_Encoder b0 10 7f
WidgetEnd

    ...

What do you think ?

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up.

CSI Exp.zip

Possible fix for VST3 detection issues.

New auto scan strategy -- CSI never spends more than 5 seconds scanning.

This means AutoStepSizes.txt will fill out over time.

Funkybot, you have a huge dataset, can you delete your AutoStepSizes.txt, and see if this works, I don't have enough data to check it.

It's still taking about a minute each launch on Windows (note: my plugins are not an SSD, I'm sure on M1 Mac this would take seconds). This has the downside of making Reaper launch slowly many times, versus just launching very slowly once.

VST3 is working!

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 04:07 PM

Crashed one time. Last line the AutoStepSizeText was this:

Code:

"VST: Distortion 1 (Audiority)" 2091 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: Distortion 1 (Audiority)" 2093 0.000000 1.000000

Now, there is no FXParam 2091 or 2092. This is a Boss DS-1 clone. The entire FX Raw Output is below.

Code:

Zone "VST: Distortion 1 (Audiority)"
	FXParam 0 "Power"
	FXParam 1 "Tone"
	FXParam 2 "Dist"
	FXParam 3 "Level"
	FXParam 4 "Input Gain"
	FXParam 5 "Output Gain"
	FXParam 6 "Mix"
	FXParam 7 "HQ"
	FXParam 8 "Circuit Type"
	FXParam 9 "Noise Gate"
	FXParam 10 "Bypass"
	FXParam 11 "Wet"
	FXParam 12 "Delta"
ZoneEnd

It also happens on other (but not) all files like:

Code:

"VST3: GainMatch (LetiMix)" 20 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST3: GainMatch (LetiMix)" 21 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST3: GainMatch (LetiMix)" 2127 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST3: GainMatch (LetiMix)" 2129 0.000000 1.000000 

"VST: Instant Flanger Mk II (Eventide)" 2103 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: Instant Flanger Mk II (Eventide)" 2105 0.000000 1.000000 

"VST: Irid (Tritik)" 2105 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: Irid (Tritik)" 2107 0.000000 1.000000

...so something's causing the scanner to output incorrect FXParam numbers in some instances.

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 04:16 PM

Once it completes the scan, it starts scanning through the plugin batch all over again. So for example, let's say each batch of plugins was 50 files. Each time I launch Reaper, it will scan...

Batch1
Batch2
Batch3
Batch4
Batch5

Then it should be done right, no more scanning? Instead it basically just starts over with...

Batch1
Batch2
etc.

...at this point, nothing new is being added to the AutoStepSizes.txt. I wonder if this might be because I have multiple surfaces?

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

It's still taking about a minute each launch on Windows (note: my plugins are not an SSD, I'm sure on M1 Mac this would take seconds). This has the downside of making Reaper launch slowly many times, versus just launching very slowly once.

VST3 is working!

That's great news, just not for you.

I was wondering why things were so slow, I was mistakenly assuming we were CPU bound.

Your results indicate I/O bound.

That's a great relief.

And that makes much more sense, numbers wise.

My preliminary investigation showed a bit over 3 seconds for 20 FX.

From that I reasoned that 500 would take just over a minute, once only, not so bad.

It also makes sense why you can feel the AutoStepSizes.txt load so much.

OK, well, I'm going to put it back to the original way.

We'll just document that, if you don't have modern hardware, and you do have a ton of FX, Automap is not for you, unless you are willing to put up with the one time hit

Glad to hear VST3 is now working !

Did you encounter any crashes ?

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Crashed one time. Last line the AutoStepSizeText was this:

Code:

"VST: Distortion 1 (Audiority)" 2091 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: Distortion 1 (Audiority)" 2093 0.000000 1.000000

Now, there is no FXParam 2091 or 2092. This is a Boss DS-1 clone. The entire FX Raw Output is below.

Code:

Zone "VST: Distortion 1 (Audiority)"
	FXParam 0 "Power"
	FXParam 1 "Tone"
	FXParam 2 "Dist"
	FXParam 3 "Level"
	FXParam 4 "Input Gain"
	FXParam 5 "Output Gain"
	FXParam 6 "Mix"
	FXParam 7 "HQ"
	FXParam 8 "Circuit Type"
	FXParam 9 "Noise Gate"
	FXParam 10 "Bypass"
	FXParam 11 "Wet"
	FXParam 12 "Delta"
ZoneEnd

It also happens on other (but not) all files like:

Code:

"VST3: GainMatch (LetiMix)" 20 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST3: GainMatch (LetiMix)" 21 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST3: GainMatch (LetiMix)" 2127 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST3: GainMatch (LetiMix)" 2129 0.000000 1.000000 

"VST: Instant Flanger Mk II (Eventide)" 2103 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: Instant Flanger Mk II (Eventide)" 2105 0.000000 1.000000 

"VST: Irid (Tritik)" 2105 0.000000 1.000000 
"VST: Irid (Tritik)" 2107 0.000000 1.000000

...so something's causing the scanner to output incorrect FXParam numbers in some instances.

Interesting...

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

That's great news, just not for you.

Glad to hear VST3 is now working !

Did you encounter any crashes ?

We were cross posting, see my post above about crashes.

In terms of scanning my recommendation would still be: On-Demand auto-step size scans via an action. I know...it's a Reaper action and not quite transparent, but it would still be better than current-state (production version).

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Once it completes the scan, it starts scanning through the plugin batch all over again. So for example, let's say each batch of plugins was 50 files. Each time I launch Reaper, it will scan...

Batch1
Batch2
Batch3
Batch4
Batch5

Then it should be done right, no more scanning? Instead it basically just starts over with...

Batch1
Batch2
etc.

...at this point, nothing new is being added to the AutoStepSizes.txt. I wonder if this might be because I have multiple surfaces?

Each surface's AutoStepSizes.txt should end up in the appropriate Zone folder.

If two surfaces share a Zone folder it should all just work out, I think...

Geoff Waddington · 09-09-2022, 04:26 PM

I've got 50 UAD FX, I'm going to cook up some phoney FX Zones for them and see if I can get it to misbehave.

drumsareme · 09-09-2022, 06:44 PM

Is there a page I can go to to understand who presently has the most integrated config and what controller it's for ?

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I've got 50 UAD FX, I'm going to cook up some phoney FX Zones for them and see if I can get it to misbehave.

If you can't get them misbehaving, try downloading the demo of the Arturia FX Collection 3. I would not be surprised if some of those are responsible. I think even the smallest FX has over 1,000 automation params, and at least on my windows PC, they take incredibly long to load. Thinking about the scanning issues, I wouldn't be surprised if they were breaking something.

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drumsareme

Is there a page I can go to to understand who presently has the most integrated config and what controller it's for ?

I think the X-Touch Universal is probably the most widely recommended hardware for CSI. It's got 9 faders (8 channels, 1 master), every button has a light, there's a pan encoder for every channel, and now there's color support in CSI. The only downside is probably that the faders get a little jittery when automated.

I think Navelpluisje's ReaSonus integration is very deep. And there are some nice things about the surface (wider gamut of track colors, more display lines/types) but the downsides are fewer buttons overall and no pan encoders for each channel.

Funkybot · 09-09-2022, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

That's great news, just not for you.

Just a head's up Mr W.: loading a new project also causes the scanning to occur. But then the project doesn't actually load. Very dangerous.

So start Reaper in an empty project: scan happens.

Now, load a project, and another scan happens. Then you'll briefly see your project for a second before it disappears and more scanning happens. Now you've got an empty project in front of you that's a dirty'd up version of your actual project. Not paying attention or accidentally hit save, and your project is potentially gone.

I'd recommend people not try out this Exp build for that reason. You can lose production projects very easily here.

drumsareme · 09-09-2022, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

I think the X-Touch Universal is probably the most widely recommended hardware for CSI. It's got 9 faders (8 channels, 1 master), every button has a light, there's a pan encoder for every channel, and now there's color support in CSI. The only downside is probably that the faders get a little jittery when automated.

I think Navelpluisje's ReaSonus integration is very deep. And there are some nice things about the surface (wider gamut of track colors, more display lines/types) but the downsides are fewer buttons overall and no pan encoders for each channel.

Great, so does that mean that CSI - at present version is enough for x-touch universal to be deep featured, or is there someone doing a version like ReaSonus for X-touch ??

Navelpluisje · 09-10-2022, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

If you can't get them misbehaving, try downloading the demo of the Arturia FX Collection 3. I would not be surprised if some of those are responsible. I think even the smallest FX has over 1,000 automation params, and at least on my windows PC, they take incredibly long to load. Thinking about the scanning issues, I wouldn't be surprised if they were breaking something.

Also on Mac the Arturia plugings have that huge amount of params. To avoid this we can maybe maximise the amount of params to scan. For a small fx zone editor I maximize them now to 150. I do not know pluginns having more then 150 actual params (If there are, it's fairly easy to higher the count). Funny although is that Arturia's stepsizes are excelent

I was also thinking; Why do we scan everything on start and not create the step values when using the plugin? Then create a file per plugin. give it a last updated field, to avoid updating every time? This will prevent processing all the data in once, and on plugin load it should not be noticable, exept maybe the frst time you use it with a huge amount of params.

Geoff Waddington · 09-10-2022, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

If you can't get them misbehaving, try downloading the demo of the Arturia FX Collection 3. I would not be surprised if some of those are responsible. I think even the smallest FX has over 1,000 automation params, and at least on my windows PC, they take incredibly long to load. Thinking about the scanning issues, I wouldn't be surprised if they were breaking something.

Ok, as Navelpluisje says, we will cap the params at something reasonable.

Over 1000 ?

Really ?

Effin VST manufacturers

Geoff Waddington · 09-10-2022, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Just a head's up Mr W.: loading a new project also causes the scanning to occur. But then the project doesn't actually load. Very dangerous.

So start Reaper in an empty project: scan happens.

Now, load a project, and another scan happens. Then you'll briefly see your project for a second before it disappears and more scanning happens. Now you've got an empty project in front of you that's a dirty'd up version of your actual project. Not paying attention or accidentally hit save, and your project is potentially gone.

I'd recommend people not try out this Exp build for that reason. You can lose production projects very easily here.

I'll put a build up with this disabled.

Then, I'll put a separate one up for our testing.