Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[Geoff Waddington]

Looking at some of these test posts makes it clear we should consider simplifying the whole AutoMap/Learn workflow, it's very error prone and can be confusing.

We have a secret weapon, Focused FX now works !

I propose the following as a starting point for discussion.

Remove the NoMap Zone.

FXMenu will display NoMap for any FX without Zone definitions.

The LearnFocusedFXParams Zone will behave like any other Associated Zone.

The button for AutoMap will move inside the LearnFocusedFXParams Zone.

That way, we only need one control for LearnFocusedFXParams in the Buttons Zone.

What do you think ?

[Funkybot]

I like where you're going. Would it be feasible to tweak the design so that:

1. Activating "GoFXSlot" on a "NoMap" plugin automatically enters Learn mode
2. Focusing an FX with no map also automatically enters Learn mode
3. Then all you need is a single "AutomapFocusedFX" action on your surface that would work for any FocusedFX with NoMap

Only thing that might get tricky is multiple surface setups and not having them enter Learn mode when focusing FX and you don't want them to.

The challenge with a LearnFXParams Associated zone versus the NoMap option is surfaces going to be on surfaces like the Twister. I've got an FXMenu going, but I'm not really calling AssociatedZones up or anything due to the limited number of buttons. But if I were instantly in Learn mode, then I could just keep a side button dedicated to the rare instances where I want to Automap.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

I like where you're going. Would it be feasible to tweak the design so that:

1. Activating "GoFXSlot" on a "NoMap" plugin automatically enters Learn mode
2. Focusing an FX with no map also automatically enters Learn mode
3. Then all you need is a single "AutomapFocusedFX" action on your surface that would work for any FocusedFX with NoMap

Only thing that might get tricky is multiple surface setups and not having them enter Learn mode when focusing FX and you don't want them to.

The challenge with a LearnFXParams Associated zone versus the NoMap option is surfaces going to be on surfaces like the Twister. I've got an FXMenu going, but I'm not really calling AssociatedZones up or anything due to the limited number of buttons. But if I were instantly in Learn mode, then I could just keep a side button dedicated to the rare instances where I want to Automap.

Good points.

The issue I see is point 2.

Anytime you mistakenly focus an FX with no map you bounce into Learn mode, too clunky and annoying.

Having a button also makes Broadcast/Listen a lot easier.

I do get your point about limited buttons on, say, a Twister.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Looking at some of these test posts makes it clear we should consider simplifying the whole AutoMap/Learn workflow, it's very error prone and can be confusing.

We have a secret weapon, Focused FX now works !

I propose the following as a starting point for discussion.

Remove the NoMap Zone.

FXMenu will display NoMap for any FX without Zone definitions.

The LearnFocusedFXParams Zone will behave like any other Associated Zone.

The button for AutoMap will move inside the LearnFocusedFXParams Zone.

That way, we only need one control for LearnFocusedFXParams in the Buttons Zone.

What do you think ?

I think this is a great idea Get rid of the NoMap Zone and Learn from SlotFX. Same focused FX method for everything. With respect to @funkybot, don’t make it automatic.

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Looking at some of these test posts makes it clear we should consider simplifying the whole AutoMap/Learn workflow, it's very error prone and can be confusing.

We have a secret weapon, Focused FX now works !

I propose the following as a starting point for discussion.

Remove the NoMap Zone.

FXMenu will display NoMap for any FX without Zone definitions.

The LearnFocusedFXParams Zone will behave like any other Associated Zone.

The button for AutoMap will move inside the LearnFocusedFXParams Zone.

That way, we only need one control for LearnFocusedFXParams in the Buttons Zone.

What do you think ?

This all sounds like a really efficient workflow!

[Geoff Waddington]

Ok, working through this, just thought you'd like a heads up as to the type of changes to expect:

Zone Home

    ...
    
    AssociatedZones
       	SelectedTracks
       	SelectedTrackSend
       	SelectedTrackReceive
       	SelectedTrackFXMenu
       	MasterTrackFXMenu
       	TrackSend
       	TrackReceive
       	TrackFXMenu
       	VCA
       	Folder
       	SelectedTrackTCPFX
       	SelectedTrackTCPFXTemplate
	LearnFocusedFXParams
	CustomAux
	CustomBuses
	CustomOutputs
    AssociatedZonesEnd
ZoneEnd

Zone "Buttons"
//  Encoder Assign Buttons

    Track         	GoAssociatedZone SelectedTracks 
    Global+Track  	GoHome // aka Tracks
    Pan           	GoAssociatedZone VCA
    Global+Pan    	GoAssociatedZone Folder
    EQ            	GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackReceive
    Global+EQ    	GoAssociatedZone TrackReceive
    Send          	GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackSend
    Global+Send   	GoAssociatedZone TrackSend
    Plugin        	GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackFXMenu
    Global+Plugin 	GoAssociatedZone TrackFXMenu
    Instrument   	GoAssociatedZone LearnFocusedFXParams
    Shift+Instrument	AutoMapFocusedFX
    Control+Instrument	RemapZone

Zone "LearnFocusedFXParams"
    OnZoneActivation	SetXTouchDisplayColors Cyan 
    OnZoneDeactivation  RestoreXTouchDisplayColors
    Outputs		EraseLastTouchedControl
    User                SaveLearnedFXParams
 
    Rotary1		NoAction
    Fader1   		NoAction
    RotaryPush1		NoAction
    DisplayUpper1       NoAction
    DisplayLower1	NoAction

    ...

[fourdogslong]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

This is a result of sharing displays for each of the controls.

We used to have a problem with "psychedelic displays" , where 2 Actions tied to the same display Widget (e.g. DisplayUpper1) would cause it to wildly flicker.

NullDisplay takes care of that.

Only one display in a cell should have a param or no action, the rest should be null.

If the cell has a param, all good.

If not, you likely want to blank the cell to make sure nothing bleeds through from a lower Zone.

That's why, if no controls are used, one (typical the first) should have NoAction assigned to the displays, to ensure proper clearing.

Thanks for clearing that up, makes perfect sense.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ok, working through this, just thought you'd like a heads up as to the type of changes to expect:

Zone Home

    ...
    
    AssociatedZones
       	SelectedTracks
       	SelectedTrackSend
       	SelectedTrackReceive
       	SelectedTrackFXMenu
       	MasterTrackFXMenu
       	TrackSend
       	TrackReceive
       	TrackFXMenu
       	VCA
       	Folder
       	SelectedTrackTCPFX
       	SelectedTrackTCPFXTemplate
	LearnFocusedFXParams
	CustomAux
	CustomBuses
	CustomOutputs
    AssociatedZonesEnd
ZoneEnd

Zone "Buttons"
//  Encoder Assign Buttons

    Track         	GoAssociatedZone SelectedTracks 
    Global+Track  	GoHome // aka Tracks
    Pan           	GoAssociatedZone VCA
    Global+Pan    	GoAssociatedZone Folder
    EQ            	GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackReceive
    Global+EQ    	GoAssociatedZone TrackReceive
    Send          	GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackSend
    Global+Send   	GoAssociatedZone TrackSend
    Plugin        	GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackFXMenu
    Global+Plugin 	GoAssociatedZone TrackFXMenu
    Instrument   	GoAssociatedZone LearnFocusedFXParams
    Shift+Instrument	AutoMapFocusedFX
    Control+Instrument	RemapZone

Zone "LearnFocusedFXParams"
    OnZoneActivation	SetXTouchDisplayColors Cyan 
    OnZoneDeactivation  RestoreXTouchDisplayColors
    Outputs		EraseLastTouchedControl
    User                SaveLearnedFXParams
 
    Rotary1		NoAction
    Fader1   		NoAction
    RotaryPush1		NoAction
    DisplayUpper1       NoAction
    DisplayLower1	NoAction

    ...

This looks good! Presumably Broadcast/Receive with other surfaces?

[Funkybot]

Definitely a nitpick, but do we need the "Params" in "LearnFocusedFXParams"? I get why it's there, but I think LearnFocusedFX and AutomapFocusedFX is clear enough. Otherwise, people might think it has something to do with FocusedFXParams as an action.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

This looks good! Presumably Broadcast/Receive with other surfaces?

Yes, will be adding a LearnFocusedFX checkbox to Listeners.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Definitely a nitpick, but do we need the "Params" in "LearnFocusedFXParams"? I get why it's there, but I think LearnFocusedFX and AutomapFocusedFX is clear enough. Otherwise, people might think it has something to do with FocusedFXParams as an action.

Good point.

Since we are changing it any way, might as well do this now.

[Geoff Waddington]

Rethinking the Zone definitions.

Now think the AutoMapFocusedFX and RemapZone Actions should move to the LearnFocusedFX Zone.

Thoughts ?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Rethinking the Zone definitions.

Now think the AutoMapFocusedFX and RemapZone Actions should move to the LearnFocusedFX Zone.

Thoughts ?

Sounds good to me and keeps all the "how do I get FX controls on my surface?" stuff together. Well, with the exception of TCPFX anyway

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Rethinking the Zone definitions.

Now think the AutoMapFocusedFX and RemapZone Actions should move to the LearnFocusedFX Zone.

Thoughts ?

I've got some questions on this one. Right now, if I have an FX map loaded, I can just call up a "Remap" action because I've got this in my FXPrologue

Zone FXPrologue
MainDisplay1   TrackNameDisplay
MainDisplay2   FXMenuNameDisplay
/
BankD          RemapAutoZone
BankDDisplay   FixedTextDisplay "Remap FX"
ZoneEnd

Would that still be allowed? That seems like most the logical way: 1) actiate an FX map that includes that, then 2) press Remap to direclty enter RemapFX.

In the new flow, how would this work: 1. Focused an FX, 2) click Learn FX, then 3) press Ramap? One extra button press in my instance.

But if the Remap action can be called from anywhere then, I'm good.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

I've got some questions on this one. Right now, if I have an FX map loaded, I can just call up a "Remap" action because I've got this in my FXPrologue

Zone FXPrologue
MainDisplay1   TrackNameDisplay
MainDisplay2   FXMenuNameDisplay
/
BankD          RemapAutoZone
BankDDisplay   FixedTextDisplay "Remap FX"
ZoneEnd

Would that still be allowed? That seems like most the logical way: 1) actiate an FX map that includes that, then 2) press Remap to direclty enter RemapFX.

In the new flow, how would this work: 1. Focused an FX, 2) click Learn FX, then 3) press Ramap? One extra button press in my instance.

But if the Remap action can be called from anywhere then, I'm good.

Well, basing FX mapping on Focused FX only is a game changer internally, it simplifies things a lot and allows for workflows that would have not been feasible before.

Here's the current one being contemplated.

Learning is just learning, whether it's auto or manual.

Previously AutoMap (should probably be renamed to AutoLearn) would automatically save the file.

No need for that anymore.

You could activate the LearnFocusedFX Zone, then press the button assigned to AutoMap.

This would AutoMap all params, but would not save anything.

Since you are already in Learn mode, you could then touch and erase controls, add controls, etc., until you were happy, then press save.

I think the whole thing can be much more seamlessly integrated with the new approach.

You can Focus an already mapped FX and hit Learn to go back to Learn mode.

Trying to get the whole Ux to be more intuitive, seamless, and cohesive.

[Funkybot]

Makes sense. What I'm just saying is: I want to retain the ability to call up the Remap window directly from an FX zone without having to load the Learn AssociatedZone first. Example: I have a map setup and now I just want to open the Remap window to rename controls. Why make me go into the Learn zone first?

The new vision for Learn sounds great.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Makes sense. What I'm just saying is: I want to retain the ability to call up the Remap window directly from an FX zone without having to load the Learn AssociatedZone first. Example: I have a map setup and now I just want to open the Remap window to rename controls. Why make me go into the Learn zone first?

The new vision for Learn sounds great.

Ah, got it.

Yup, you can call Remap from anywhere.

The rest you can only call from with the LearnFocusedFX Zone.

Of course, there is nothing stopping you from having Remap defined both ways.

[Geoff Waddington]

I've hinted at major changes coming to CSI...

Pleased to announce today that CSI is being strongly considered for inclusion in the Reaper install.

We definitely need everyone in the community to help make this happen.

That means lots of QA testing.

It also means making some hard decisions about the CSI folder content.

I know there will be well founded opinions on which is the best .mst layout for a particular surface, or the best Track.zon definition, etc., but I think CSI has been in production long enough that we can come to (mostly) consensus, on most items

Let's get testing, vetting, and curating, and make this more likely to happen !

[fourdogslong]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I've hinted at major changes coming to CSI...

Pleased to announce today that CSI is being strongly considered for inclusion in the Reaper install.

We definitely need everyone in the community to help make this happen.

That means lots of QA testing.

It also means making some hard decisions about the CSI folder content.

I know there will be well founded opinions on which is the best .mst layout for a particular surface, or the best Track.zon definition, etc., but I think CSI has been in production long enough that we can come to (mostly) consensus, on most items

Let's get testing, vetting, and curating, and make this more likely to happen !

Congrats that's pretty big news!

[flipotto]

Awesome news!

We are waiting for the next beta to test, right?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by flipotto

We are waiting for the next beta to test, right?

Yes, working on Learn.

[Funkybot]

That's great news! Looking forward to this! Congrats!

[jakeman19]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I've hinted at major changes coming to CSI...

Pleased to announce today that CSI is being strongly considered for inclusion in the Reaper install.

We definitely need everyone in the community to help make this happen.

That means lots of QA testing.

It also means making some hard decisions about the CSI folder content.

I know there will be well founded opinions on which is the best .mst layout for a particular surface, or the best Track.zon definition, etc., but I think CSI has been in production long enough that we can come to (mostly) consensus, on most items

Let's get testing, vetting, and curating, and make this more likely to happen !

Awesome news!!! Congratulations!!!

Jd

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I've hinted at major changes coming to CSI...

Pleased to announce today that CSI is being strongly considered for inclusion in the Reaper install.

We definitely need everyone in the community to help make this happen.

That means lots of QA testing.

It also means making some hard decisions about the CSI folder content.

I know there will be well founded opinions on which is the best .mst layout for a particular surface, or the best Track.zon definition, etc., but I think CSI has been in production long enough that we can come to (mostly) consensus, on most items

Let's get testing, vetting, and curating, and make this more likely to happen !

Great news! Definitely a well deserved outcome of your constant dedication, Geoff.

My most sincere congratulations!

[Geoff Waddington]

Thanks to the community, you folks made it happen !

One thing we haven't mentioned yet, the wiki.

Would be great to improve this, all ideas more than welcomed.

[Freex]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Thanks to the community, you folks made it happen !

One thing we haven't mentioned yet, the wiki.

Would be great to improve this, all ideas more than welcomed.

A search function, where you can search a term and it will find any reference to it on any page.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Freex

A search function, where you can search a term and it will find any reference to it on any page.

Hmmm...

Maybe a wiki isn't the best way in the first place.

PDF ?

Something else ?

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Freex

A search function, where you can search a term and it will find any reference to it on any page.

I found a browser extension that lets you search for any word on a github wiki. Much better than the stock search. Will post the name of you need me to. On my phone at the moment.

[fourdogslong]

Originally Posted by Freex

A search function, where you can search a term and it will find any reference to it on any page.

I agree 100%, that's what I found the hardest when I was first learning how to create my CSI setup, I would find some info and then 2 days later could not find it anymore because I didn't remember how to get there.
A search function would've saved me a ton of time.

[Funkybot]

If you're open to a browser extension, there's a Chrome/Edge extension called "Wiki Search for GitHub". Works exactly how you hope. I used it the last time I needed to hunt down references to an outdated action and it pulled up all of them.

[fourdogslong]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

If you're open to a browser extension, there's a Chrome/Edge extension called "Wiki Search for GitHub". Works exactly how you hope. I used it the last time I needed to hunt down references to an outdated action and it pulled up all of them.

I wish I knew earlier lol! Thanks for that, I'll definitely use it next time.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by fourdogslong

I wish I knew earlier lol! Thanks for that, I'll definitely use it next time.

I only discovered it recently myself, and trust me: no one's spent more time hunting down information on the wiki than I have. Would've saved me a LOT of time if I knew about it sooner.

[Freex]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

I only discovered it recently myself, and trust me: no one's spent more time hunting down information on the wiki than I have. Would've saved me a LOT of time if I knew about it sooner.

Awesome, now make sure to put a link to that at the top of the main page every page IN BIG BOLD WRITING lol.

[Geoff Waddington]

New Exp build is up.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

Fixed Advanced Dialog bug that FB reported on Windows.

First cut at new Learn workflow.

I really like it, could probably use a few tweaks, give it a try.

A take on the FB suggestion -- if you use FXMenu and Push GoFXSlot on a NoMap, the FX gui opens, focusing it. You can then press the button assigned to GoAssociatedZone LearnFocusedFX to Learn or Auto Learn.

It requires quite a few changes, including Zone names, I think this is the list

Zone Home
    AssociatedZones
	LearnFocusedFX

Zone "Buttons"

    Instrument GoAssociatedZone LearnFocusedFX

    User RemapZone

Zone "LearnFocusedFX"
    Busses		AutoLearnFocusedFX
    Outputs		EraseLastTouchedControl
    User                SaveLearnedFXParams

Note that you can go back into Learn or Remap anytime you want, there are no restrictions, providing, of course, that you don't mess with the auto generated section

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

If you're open to a browser extension, there's a Chrome/Edge extension called "Wiki Search for GitHub". Works exactly how you hope. I used it the last time I needed to hunt down references to an outdated action and it pulled up all of them.

"GitHub Wiki Search" is the name of the one I use on Firefox. Works OK!

[Funkybot]

Hi Geoff, just gave the latest Exp a quick smoke test.

When using the Remap window to add 2 steps to a Push, I end up with this...

	RotaryPushA4 FXParam 4 RingStyle= [ 0.00>1.00 (0.001) 0 1 ]
	DisplayUpperA4 FixedTextDisplay "WOW Processing Type" 
	DisplayLowerA4 FXParamValueDisplay 4

Expecting this...

	RotaryPushA4 FXParam 4 [ 0 1 ]
	DisplayUpperA4 FixedTextDisplay "WOW Processing Type" 
	DisplayLowerA4 FXParamValueDisplay 4

Otherwise, working so far. Will dig in more later/over the weekend!

[Funkybot]

Also, can confirm the Advanced window crashes are gone. Thanks!

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Hi Geoff, just gave the latest Exp a quick smoke test.

When using the Remap window to add 2 steps to a Push, I end up with this...

	RotaryPushA4 FXParam 4 RingStyle= [ 0.00>1.00 (0.001) 0 1 ]
	DisplayUpperA4 FixedTextDisplay "WOW Processing Type" 
	DisplayLowerA4 FXParamValueDisplay 4

Expecting this...

	RotaryPushA4 FXParam 4 [ 0 1 ]
	DisplayUpperA4 FixedTextDisplay "WOW Processing Type" 
	DisplayLowerA4 FXParamValueDisplay 4

Otherwise, working so far. Will dig in more later/over the weekend!

Aside from the RingStyle bug, that is per design.

Remap now fully defines params when it saves.

Should we change that ?

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Aside from the RingStyle bug, that is per design.

Remap now fully defines params when it saves.

Should we change that ?

It’s a great starting point if, for example, the range has to be narrowed.

[Geoff Waddington]

New Exp build is up.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

Added LearnFX checkbox to Advanced Dialog.

Only GoAssociatedZone "LearnFocusedFX" and SaveLearnedFXParams are broadcast.

You will need to assign a button to EraseLastTouchedControl on each Listener surface, since EraseLastTouchedControl is surface specific.

I don't think it makes sense to Broadcast AutoLearnFocusedFX, but maybe I'm wrong, maybe an MFT and OSC display ?