Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Hi, sorry to interrupt the cool new stuff, just posting some zon files. This is for the build 6.29

C4 zon
ProX zon to check the pan/etc. //Upper = lower is due to the new firmware, swapped upper and lower displays
NLS zon
SSL zon

So, last night I posted that only one fx showed up, it was always the last in the chain. Later that night, the 2nd FX showed up (but not the 1st). And right now, none of them are showing up.

edit, last one is showing up now, again.

But, sends are working perfectly.

You should clean up your ProX file -- the lines in strikeout are from features that no longer exist and should be removed:

Zone Channel|1-8
	TrackNavigator
	VUMeter|  TrackOutputMeterMaxPeakLR
	/VUMeter|  TrackOutputMeterAverageLR
	DisplayUpper|  TrackNameDisplay
	DisplayLower|  TrackPanDisplay
	TrackTouch+DisplayLower|  TrackVolumeDisplay
	/RotaryPush| GoZone PanWidth|
	/Rotary| TrackPan 0
	RotaryPush| TrackCycle PanWidthCycle 2
	PanWidthCycle+Rotary| TrackPan 0
	PanWidthCycle+Rotary| TrackPanWidth 1
	RecordArm|  TrackRecordArm
	Solo|  TrackSolo
	Mute| TrackMute
	Select|  TrackUniqueSelect
	Shift+Select|  TrackRangeSelect
	Control+Select|  TrackSelect
	Fader|  TrackVolume
	TrackTouch+Fader|  TrackVolume
	FaderTouch|  TrackTouch
ZoneEnd

You might also want to uncomment the Pan stuff (in bold) and add the Pan and PanWidth Zones -- you can find them in the MCU.zon file.

I see you are using Waves FX for your test.

Important tip for everyone -- when you are testing try to avoid Waves and Slate FX -- best to first try whatever idea you have with Reaper built-ins, UAD, etc. they are always solid, for me at least

[Freex]

Hey Geoff,

Speaking of waves,

Is there a way to segment the rotary for when a fx is emulating a "click clunk" knob?

Like SSL emus,

CLA Drums from waves works fine (I know you just said about Waves lol), just the drum mode selection could be more responsive.

[ambient]

Originally Posted by ambient

Hi all,

Could I just jump in here and ask about the X-Touch One? I'm thinking of getting one, and trying to get a sense of how well I can expect it to work in reaper.

What does/doesn't work?
How difficult is it to get working as best it can?
Should I give in and get a faderport instead?

Apologies for not reading through 80+ pages, but a lot of this stuff is over my head.

Bump?

I had actually started a seperate thread about this, but was told to ask in here instead.

I'd really appreciate any insights!

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Freex

Speaking of waves,

Is there a way to segment the rotary for when a fx is emulating a "click clunk" knob?

Whether a 3, 4, or more way control works with the rotary seems to depend on how the plugin manufacturer has implemented the automation side of things.

I have some that work fine, some that don't work at all and some that work with everything except 3 way.

Geoff is completely right about Waves and Slate though. PITA.

Welcome to the dark corner of the plugin world. Manufacturers get sloppy here. Here's a parameter dump from Acustica's Taupe:

VST: TAUPE (Acqua)
Mix 5
Mix 10
Mix 3
Mix 1
Mix 2
Mix 1
Mix 1
Mix 3
Mix 9
Mix 10
Mix 2
Mix 1
Mix 3
Mix 2
Mix 1
Mix 1
Mix 2
Mix 6
Mix 3
Mix 4
Mix 9
Mix 1
Mix 2
Mix 5
Mix 7
Mix 8
Bypass
Wet

Awesome, huh?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by ambient

Bump?

I had actually started a seperate thread about this, but was told to ask in here instead.

I'd really appreciate any insights!

In all honesty, unless you can find someone that already owns an X-Touch One and has tried it out with CSI, it's probably best not to make purchasing decisions based on what should work.

That said, if it supports the Mackie control protocol you're in with a reasonable chance

[Geoff Waddington]

@Mixmonkey, do you want me to develop this, or do you want me to hand it back to you and get to work on the small project problems ?

I could help you where ever needed.

I could also continue along, although it seems inefficient, both of us working on it.

It's to the point now where, on Mac at least, you can pick a CSI generated file, then you do the cut and paste thing.

It also outputs a .zon file to /CSI/Zones/ZoneFXFiles, but currently it is only the shell, you would have to fill in the cell value stuff.

If you want to take what is started and improve upon it, I'll post a build that generates the FX .txt files, and post the spreadsheet.

Up to you, just offering...

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

@Mixmonkey, do you want me to develop this, or do you want me to hand it back to you and get to work on the small project problems ?

I'm happy to continue to develop this (to the best of my ability, I probably will need some help though)
I think your time is probably much better spent on the grown-up stuff.

The configurator doesn't fix any bugs or develop any new features, it just makes the existing setup easier to use. Hopefully it will also cut down on typos and outright mistakes in the FX.zon files, which can throw up the weirdest, seemingly unrelated problems.

It's to the point now where, on Mac at least, you can pick a CSI generated file, then you do the cut and paste thing.

It also outputs a .zon file to /CSI/Zones/ZoneFXFiles, but currently it is only the shell, you would have to fill in the cell value stuff.

Cool, post the build and let me see if I can catch up to where you are

I'm currently building a four Zone FX configurator for the MCU. I think this will have a much wider appeal than the somewhat elite club of C4 owners

Speaking of small problems, if you could fix that OnFXFocus bug with the first plugin I mentioned that would be great.

Also, if ToggleMapSends could automatically GoZone Home when it is un-toggled, I think we could head off a lot of support questions at the pass

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

I'm happy to continue to develop this (to the best of my ability, I probably will need some help though)
I think your time is probably much better spent on the grown-up stuff.

The configurator doesn't fix any bugs or develop any new features, it just makes the existing setup easier to use. Hopefully it will also cut down on typos and outright mistakes in the FX.zon files, which can throw up the weirdest, seemingly unrelated problems.



Cool, post the build and let me see if I can catch up to where you are

I'm currently building a four Zone FX configurator for the MCU. I think this will have a much wider appeal than the somewhat elite club of C4 owners

Great stuff, I'll post a new build very shortly, and I'll post the spreadsheet.

Make sure the latest Zone folder contains a ZoneRawFXFiles and a ZoneFXFiles folder -- see CSI folder in the download for an example.

If you wish to output a particular FX, make sure VST monitor is on, and open the FX -- you will see it in console and it will also write to ZoneRawFXFiles.

The spreadsheet is hardwired to this location.

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Speaking of small problems, if you could fix that OnFXFocus bug with the first plugin I mentioned that would be great.

Yup, still working on Focus issues

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Also, if ToggleMapSends could automatically GoZone Home when it is un-toggled, I think we could head off a lot of support questions at the pass

That's the tricky one we talked about a while back -- it works great if the underlying Zone is Home, but fails otherwise.

I do get your point though, maybe another Action that doesn't automatically go Home that advanced users could substitute, otherwise the more familiar go Home would apply...

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

That's the tricky one we talked about a while back -- it works great if the underlying Zone is Home, but fails otherwise.

I do get your point though, maybe another Action that doesn't automatically go Home that advanced users could substitute, otherwise the more familiar go Home would apply...

By otherwise, do mean if the underlying zone was an FX zone?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

By otherwise, do mean if the underlying zone was an FX zone?

Yes, or any other Zone that wasn't Home.

It gets us back into that dreaded Zone stack place because we have to remember something -- that's when trouble always starts for me, whenever I have to remember something

You likely don't see it as much as others will because you have the C4, others will be exercising pretty heavily any little customizable patch they have.

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up.

Now, with VST monitor on, when you load an FX you also output a file listing all the parameters.

Take care to note that you must have the 2 folders ZoneRawFXFiles and ZoneFXFiles in your Zones folder -- see the C4 folder in the download for examples.

@Mixmonkey, this is just a primitive start, let me know if I can help in any way to take it further.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Yes, or any other Zone that wasn't Home.

It gets us back into that dreaded Zone stack place because we have to remember something -- that's when trouble always starts for me, whenever I have to remember something

You likely don't see it as much as others will because you have the C4, others will be exercising pretty heavily any little customizable patch they have.

Don't try to remember Just force Home to reload every time an activator un-toggles or loses focus (i get that 'loses focus' is harder to determine)

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Don't try to remember Just force Home to reload every time an activator un-toggles or loses focus (i get that 'loses focus' is harder to determine)

Hmmm...

Let's see if this workflow makes sense if you only have 1 MCU.

Sends are mapped 1-4, an FX is mapped 5-8.

You toggle Sends and go Home, the FX get clobbered as 1-8 all go Home.

If you attempt to break up Home, I can't hardwire Home into the code, because Home will now have 2 definitions -- 2 composite chunks (1-4 and 5-8) that comprise Home -- and only one of them can be named Home.

Maybe I'm completely missing the boat, like I was on this earlier, I dunno, does the preceding make sense, or is it just a theoretical use case that wouldn't arise ?

[edit]
Maybe a good compromise would be to tell only widgets that were deactivated to go Home, that way only 1-4 would go Home -- kinda like that one now even though I was against it a while back...
Good thing I'm not a politician, that would be a flip-flop

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Sends are mapped 1-4, an FX is mapped 5-8.

Don't worry about this. Really It's either sends or FX, not both at the same time (unless you have another surface for one of them)

In use at the moment, what happens is this:

Start at Home, play with some track levels and pans.

Select track, press ToggleMapSends, play with some sends

Select another track, play with some more sends.

Press ToggleMapSends, DisplayUpper blanks

Press GoZone Home- now back to where we started.


Just want to combine the last two steps into one, so I don't have to press GoZone Home everytime I un-ToggleMapSends.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Just want to combine the last two steps into one, so I don't have to press GoZone Home everytime I un-ToggleMapSends.

Totally get that

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Totally get that

GoZone Home is the button on the iPhone

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Don't worry about this. Really It's either sends or FX, not both at the same time (unless you have another surface for one of them)

Sorry for continuing to beat on this, but bear with me for this admittedly somewhat hypothetical use case:

Surface is 8x8 controls and is Home (which is defined as 8x8)

FX Zone is 4x4 and mapped to upper right quadrant.

Sends Zone is 4x4, occupies the lower left quadrant, and is now activated.

Deactivate Sends -- boom upper right quadrant goes Home too -- FX gets clobbered.

Now this is not a scenario that would likely occur on a C4, but it might occur on a Maschine, or something like that, where they tend to map more in that style.

So, in order to get a reasonable compromise, I propose that whenever a Zone is deactivated, the controls are sent to Home if they have a Home Zone mapping and are zeroed otherwise.

I think that covers everything but the arbitrary use case where FX is mapped 1-8, sends are activated on 1-4, and when Sends Zone is deactivated, 1-4 are Home and 5-8 are still on the FX.

I think the answer to that use case is "don't do that"

So I think we have something that satisfies most of the use cases most of the time, and seems more natural too...

What do you think ?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

So, in order to get a reasonable compromise, I propose that whenever a Zone is deactivated, the controls are sent to Home if they have a Home Zone mapping and are zeroed otherwise.

This will be fine

Just to be clear, deactivated in this sense means un-toggled or un-focussed, it won't affect one Zone simply overwriting another as in my soft synth case (or indeed, your pan/width case)

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

This will be fine

Just to be clear, deactivated in this sense means un-toggled or un-focussed, it won't affect one Zone simply overwriting another as in my soft synth case (or indeed, your pan/width case)

Yes, exactly

[MixMonkey]

Cool

Just downloaded the latest build and sheet. All good (although if you don't have those extra folders present, the VST parameter dump only shows the VST name in Reaper)

Would it be better to build my sheets into yours or vice-versa, or does it make no difference?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Cool

Just downloaded the latest build and sheet. All good (although if you don't have those extra folders present, the VST parameter dump only shows the VST name in Reaper)

Yup, those folders are required from now on

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Would it be better to build my sheets into yours or vice-versa, or does it make no difference?

Totally up to you -- You have a lot of the grunt work done (mapping cells to file), i would be tempted just to add all of those file handling subs to your sheet, then you could just change the file name handling portion as a start.

If you want to add the graphics, it's dead easy, they are just images placed in the cells, you could copy them from my sheet if you wished...

I should be around most of the day if you have any questions.

[poetnprophet]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

You should clean up your ProX file -- the lines in strikeout are from features that no longer exist and should be removed:

Zone Channel|1-8
	TrackNavigator
	VUMeter|  TrackOutputMeterMaxPeakLR
	/VUMeter|  TrackOutputMeterAverageLR
	DisplayUpper|  TrackNameDisplay
	DisplayLower|  TrackPanDisplay
	TrackTouch+DisplayLower|  TrackVolumeDisplay
	/RotaryPush| GoZone PanWidth|
	/Rotary| TrackPan 0
	RotaryPush| TrackCycle PanWidthCycle 2
	PanWidthCycle+Rotary| TrackPan 0
	PanWidthCycle+Rotary| TrackPanWidth 1
	RecordArm|  TrackRecordArm
	Solo|  TrackSolo
	Mute| TrackMute
	Select|  TrackUniqueSelect
	Shift+Select|  TrackRangeSelect
	Control+Select|  TrackSelect
	Fader|  TrackVolume
	TrackTouch+Fader|  TrackVolume
	FaderTouch|  TrackTouch
ZoneEnd

You might also want to uncomment the Pan stuff (in bold) and add the Pan and PanWidth Zones -- you can find them in the MCU.zon file.

I see you are using Waves FX for your test.

Important tip for everyone -- when you are testing try to avoid Waves and Slate FX -- best to first try whatever idea you have with Reaper built-ins, UAD, etc. they are always solid, for me at least

Ok, I did all that and I was able to use the build from 8.1. Pan is working well and no more blinking lights! Thank you!

With this build, when I select a track it selects in Reaper but doesn't "go to" that track like it did before. Am I missing a new command?

Still only getting the Last FX on the C4. All my Waves fx worked before and since I first started CSI. I mostly have Waves and Slate, haha, and it was all fine not long ago. I'll try to map some others and see how that goes.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Ok, I did all that and I was able to use the build from 8.1. Pan is working well and no more blinking lights! Thank you!

Great, glad it's working now !!

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

With this build, when I select a track it selects in Reaper but doesn't "go to" that track like it did before. Am I missing a new command?

Yes, that is broken right now - getting a redesign, will probably be back in a few builds

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Still only getting the Last FX on the C4. All my Waves fx worked before and since I first started CSI. I mostly have Waves and Slate, haha, and it was all fine not long ago. I'll try to map some others and see how that goes.

Ok, so your Waves and Slate FX are working, that's good.

When you say last FX do you mean one of the 2 FX .zon files you posted.

I didn't look thoroughly, but both of those mapped most, if not all of the C4, if you add the 2nd one, it will clobber the first, wherever it overlaps.

[Freex]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Ok, I did all that and I was able to use the build from 8.1. Pan is working well and no more blinking lights! Thank you!

With this build, when I select a track it selects in Reaper but doesn't "go to" that track like it did before. Am I missing a new command?

Still only getting the Last FX on the C4. All my Waves fx worked before and since I first started CSI. I mostly have Waves and Slate, haha, and it was all fine not long ago. I'll try to map some others and see how that goes.

Are you on windows?
The last few builds have been a bit funky.

[poetnprophet]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Great, glad it's working now !!



Yes, that is broken right now - getting a redesign, will probably be back in a few builds



Ok, so your Waves and Slate FX are working, that's good.

When you say last FX do you mean one of the 2 FX .zon files you posted.

I didn't look thoroughly, but both of those mapped most, if not all of the C4, if you add the 2nd one, it will clobber the first, wherever it overlaps.

I want to use a "channel strip" with 3 plugins in this order: SSL Channel, CA2A, and NLS channel. Only NLS channel shows up on the C4. If I move CA2A to the 3rd slot, it shows up, etc. I have them all mapped so they all fit, no overlaps. What am I doing wrong? Do I need all mappings on ONE zon file?

Also very interesting, OnFocusedFX is now working suddenly, even with all my fx zon files...not just the ones I made with MIxMonkey's spreadsheet. Still, I want to try using SelectedTrackFX

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Freex

Are you on windows?
The last few builds have been a bit funky.

Hmmm...

Don't know of anything different on Windows, what are you seeing that's specific to Windows?

The weird track stuff that you were seeing -- @MixMonkey determined it was the low track counts, not anything to do with Windows -- it's a bug on both platforms.

Is there something else i should be looking at ?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Still only getting the Last FX on the C4. All my Waves fx worked before and since I first started CSI. I mostly have Waves and Slate, haha, and it was all fine not long ago. I'll try to map some others and see how that goes.

From the two FX you posted, the 'NoAction' statements in one will overwrite the parameters in the other.

The channel strip concept requires a lot more pre-planning, because the parameters from one plugin have to avoid those from another.

If you use the C4 Configurator, putting a # in a cell will leave that cell out of the map completely, leaving a 'hole' for another plugin's parameters to fill.

In your xl sheets for the SSL and NLS, try putting # in all the unused cells, generate new .zon files and see what happens .

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

I want to use a "channel strip" with 3 plugins in this order: SSL Channel, CA2A, and NLS channel. Only NLS channel shows up on the C4. If I move CA2A to the 3rd slot, it shows up, etc. I have them all mapped so they all fit, no overlaps. What am I doing wrong? Do I need all mappings on ONE zon file?

No, they should be in separate ,zones files, as you have them.

I now understand what you are trying to do, and I think i see where it's going off the rails

You have a lot of NoAction mapped, remove all of those.

NoActions actually CAUSE overlap, that's what they are for, to make sure other mappings don't "bleed through", in your case you want that "bleed through", so you must leave holes -- no mappings at all -- that's where it's going wrong -- just remove ALL the NoActions from SSL Channel, CA2A, and NLS channel, and that should fix you right up

[edit]
Haha @MixMonkey cross-post, he's right too

[poetnprophet]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

From the two FX you posted, the 'NoAction' statements in one will overwrite the parameters in the other.

The channel strip concept requires a lot more pre-planning, because the parameters from one plugin have to avoid those from another.

If you use the C4 Configurator, putting a # in a cell will leave that cell out of the map completely, leaving a 'hole' for another plugin's parameters to fill.

In your xl sheets for the SSL and NLS, try putting # in all the unused cells, generate new .zon files and see what happens .

Oh yeaaaaaaa, it's working, hell yessss thank you! Now I have a channel strip, works perfect!

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Oh yeaaaaaaa, it's working, hell yessss thank you! Now I have a channel strip, works perfect!

How's the configurator working out? or did you edit the .zon files directly?

[poetnprophet]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

No, they should be in separate ,zones files, as you have them.

I now understand what you are trying to do, and I think i see where it's going off the rails

You have a lot of NoAction mapped, remove all of those.

NoActions actually CAUSE overlap, that's what they are for, to make sure other mappings don't "bleed through", in your case you want that "bleed through", so you must leave holes -- no mappings at all -- that's where it's going wrong -- just remove ALL the NoActions from SSL Channel, CA2A, and NLS channel, and that should fix you right up

[edit]
Haha @MixMonkey cross-post, he's right too

Indeed that's exactly what I didn't understand but now I do. Love how this is shaping up, thank you again for the guidance. I can definitely build on this.

Now...don't change anything! lol....jk. I'll try to keep up

[poetnprophet]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

How's the configurator working out? or did you edit the .zon files directly?

Oh the configurator is amazing, it's so much easier for me to setup a zon file now, especially with the fx monitor...which I never even used before. I'm not on the newest configurator, but the one I'm using works great...huge helper

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Oh the configurator is amazing, it's so much easier for me to setup a zon file now, especially with the fx monitor...which I never even used before. I'm not on the newest configurator, but the one I'm using works great...huge helper

That's good to hear I'm never quite sure how obscure I'm making things.

btw what's fx monitor?

[poetnprophet]

Toggle Sends question:

Will it be possible when in SENDS mode/toggle that selecting tracks in this mode will display the sends as you keep selecting tracks?

With MapSelectedFXtracks, when I select other tracks the C4 display updates each time. But in Send, it does not. Selecting another track goes back to MapselectedtrackFX, and requires 2 toggles go get back to sends.

FX question:
Is there a way to have both TrackSelectedFX and OnFocusFX? I'm sure there is, but I can't figure out the logic to do that. I'm thinking default to selected track, with a button press to toggle FocusFX.

[poetnprophet]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

That's good to hear I'm never quite sure how obscure I'm making things.

btw what's fx monitor?

in CSI there's the midi in, midi out, and FX monitor. I forget what it's called, I never used it before haha

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

in CSI there's the midi in, midi out, and FX monitor. I forget what it's called, I never used it before haha

Yeah, I really should change it -- it's "VST Params" now -- should be "FX Params"

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

T

With MapSelectedFXtracks, when I select other tracks the C4 display updates each time. But in Send, it does not. Selecting another track goes back to MapselectedtrackFX, and requires 2 toggles go get back to sends.

I'd say because the MapSelectedFX is overriding ToggleMapSends. Everytime you change track, the FX param load to the surface, overwriting the sends.

(...and this half a dozen posts after I confidently said sends and FX were either/or, doh!)

[MixMonkey]

Have you tried leaving row D out of your FX maps, to make space for the sends? Don't know whether it'll work, but you never know.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Toggle Sends question:

Will it be possible when in SENDS mode/toggle that selecting tracks in this mode will display the sends as you keep selecting tracks?

With MapSelectedFXtracks, when I select other tracks the C4 display updates each time. But in Send, it does not. Selecting another track goes back to MapselectedtrackFX, and requires 2 toggles go get back to sends.

Yeah, if you use OnTrackSelection for more that one Action, one Action or the other wins, in your case MapSelectedTrackFX is winning

You can avoid that by using "holes" like the Channel strip, so there's no overlap.

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

FX question:
Is there a way to have both TrackSelectedFX and OnFocusFX? I'm sure there is, but I can't figure out the logic to do that. I'm thinking default to selected track, with a button press to toggle FocusFX.

No, we made a design decision a while back after quite a bit of discussion.

You can have different surfaces on the same Page use the other style though.

You can also have a particular surface behave entirely differently on another Page, so you could also do it that way.

[Freex]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Hmmm...

Don't know of anything different on Windows, what are you seeing that's specific to Windows?

The weird track stuff that you were seeing -- @MixMonkey determined it was the low track counts, not anything to do with Windows -- it's a bug on both platforms.

Is there something else i should be looking at ?

The tracks not populating until you go into pref>CSI.


Sorry, I didn't realise the low track count bug was on mac too.