Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Freex

The tracks not populating until you go into pref>CSI.

That happens on mac too We've been starting with large projects, so just didn't notice <embarassed>

[poetnprophet]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Yeah, if you use OnTrackSelection for more that one Action, one Action or the other wins, in your case MapSelectedTrackFX is winning

You can avoid that by using "holes" like the Channel strip, so there's no overlap.



No, we made a design decision a while back after quite a bit of discussion.

You can have different surfaces on the same Page use the other style though.

You can also have a particular surface behave entirely differently on another Page, so you could also do it that way.

Ok there's plenty of room left for me to add sends, that does make the most sense.

Pages, that sounds like the way to go. Earlier CSI I had a send page, so I sort of get it. But before there was a dedicated button for paging...

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Freex

The tracks not populating until you go into pref>CSI.


Sorry, I didn't realise the low track count bug was on mac too.

No worries, thanks for finding the bug

[Freex]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

No worries, thanks for finding the bug

If I could do anything other than find ways to break it, I would.

I have a limited skill set lol

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Freex

If I could do anything other than find ways to break it, I would.

I have a limited skill set lol

Geez, you're selling yourself short

That's exactly what you look for in a tester.

Good programmers like to make things go, good QA testers like to try to break things.

I'm not kidding you, it was a sought after talent in my old corporate computing days

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up.

Sends now actually TOGGLE

I really like the way it feels, see what you think.

So, in general if any Zone gets Deactivated, it tries to send it's Widgets "Home".

On a side note the architecture is holding up, that was a fairly major change and it was a lot easier than I thought it would be

[poetnprophet]

Is there another action to map sends on track selection...ala channel strip? All I know is ToggleMapSends.

I tried this:

OnTrackSelection MapSelectedTrackSendsToWidgets

doesn't seem to work.

I also did this to try and get the sends 1-4 on A8,B8,C8,D8:

Zone Send1
SelectedTrackNavigator
DisplayUpperA8| TrackSendNameDisplay
DisplayLowerA8| TrackSendVolumeDisplay
RotaryPushA8| TrackSendMute
RotaryA8| TrackSendVolume
ZoneEnd
Zone Send2
SelectedTrackNavigator
DisplayUpperB8| TrackSendNameDisplay
DisplayLowerB8| TrackSendVolumeDisplay
RotaryPushB8| TrackSendMute
RotaryB8| TrackSendVolume
ZoneEnd
Zone Send3
SelectedTrackNavigator
DisplayUpperC8| TrackSendNameDisplay
DisplayLowerC8| TrackSendVolumeDisplay
RotaryPushC8| TrackSendMute
RotaryC8| TrackSendVolume
ZoneEnd
Zone Send4
SelectedTrackNavigator
DisplayUpperD8| TrackSendNameDisplay
DisplayLowerD8| TrackSendVolumeDisplay
RotaryPushD8| TrackSendMute
RotaryD8| TrackSendVolume
ZoneEnd

I'm not sure what's not working, any idea?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Is there another action to map sends on track selection...ala channel strip? All I know is ToggleMapSends.

I tried this:

OnTrackSelection MapSelectedTrackSendsToWidgets

I'm not sure what's not working, any idea?

The Zone definitions look fine, you just need to map a button to toggle the sends on the selected track on and off -- something like the bolded parts here:

Zone Home
	OnTrackSelection MapSelectedTrackSendsToWidgets
	IncludedZones
		Buttons 
		Channel|1-8
	IncludedZonesEnd
ZoneEnd

Zone Buttons
	Send ToggleMapSends
        ChannelLeft TrackBank -1
	ChannelRight TrackBank 1
...
ZoneEnd

You need to have a Selected Track AND have Toggle engaged to map the Sends.

[edit] Oops, my bad, Sends only work with the auto notation:

Zone Sends1-4
...
ZoneEnd

[edit] So, as of right now you can't map Sends that way, is that an important workflow for you ? -- I see how it feels more slot based since it's vertical...

[poetnprophet]

It is not that important. It would be cool to do that, it was probably discussed here and the concept missed me. I am taking the suggestion to clear a row, so that's what I've got now.

But, I'm only getting sends 1-3. I have a track with 4 sends and it's not showing up.

Here is the zone inside C4 zon:

Zone Send|1-8
SelectedTrackNavigator
DisplayUpperA| TrackSendNameDisplay
DisplayLowerA| TrackSendVolumeDisplay
RotaryPushA| TrackSendMute
RotaryA| TrackSendVolume
ZoneEnd

And I have togglesend mapped to a button on the ProX

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

It is not that important. It would be cool to do that, it was probably discussed here and the concept missed me. I am taking the suggestion to clear a row, so that's what I've got now.

But, I'm only getting sends 1-3. I have a track with 4 sends and it's not showing up.

Please post your Sends Zone contents.

[poetnprophet]

Above, afterthought

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

It is not that important. It would be cool to do that, it was probably discussed here and the concept missed me. I am taking the suggestion to clear a row, so that's what I've got now.

But, I'm only getting sends 1-3. I have a track with 4 sends and it's not showing up.

Here is the zone inside C4 zon:

Zone Send|1-8
SelectedTrackNavigator
DisplayUpperA| TrackSendNameDisplay
DisplayLowerA| TrackSendVolumeDisplay
RotaryPushA| TrackSendMute
RotaryA| TrackSendVolume
ZoneEnd

And I have togglesend mapped to a button on the ProX

Is something overlaying your definitions, in other words is there a hole in your mappings for row A1-8 ?

[poetnprophet]

No, I have no zon files in the C4 folder with mappings to the A row

[MixMonkey]

Sends toggling nicely here!

It leaves -150dB showing on DisplayLower when you switch to a track with fewer sends than the one previously, not a problem All disappears when un-toggled.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Is something overlaying your definitions, in other words is there a hole in your mappings for row A1-8 ?

There is a little bug in there somewhere.

If I open a project and select a track with one send and hit ToggleMapSends, one send appears on the C4. If I then select a track with eight sends, only the first send will appear, until I un-toggle and re-toggle ToggleMapSends. Then all eight will appear.

EDIT: This only seems to affect the C4. On the MCU, it behaves as you would expect.

[poetnprophet]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

There is a little bug in there somewhere.

If I open a project and select a track with one send and hit ToggleMapSends, one send appears on the C4. If I then select a track with eight sends, only the first send will appear, until I un-toggle and re-toggle ToggleMapSends. Then all eight will appear.

EDIT: This only seems to affect the C4. On the MCU, it behaves as you would expect.

Yes this is why I couldn't see past 3. Duplicated exactly this here as well, thank you for digging that one out! And the thing about leftover -150 on the display

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

There is a little bug in there somewhere.

If I open a project and select a track with one send and hit ToggleMapSends, one send appears on the C4. If I then select a track with eight sends, only the first send will appear, until I un-toggle and re-toggle ToggleMapSends. Then all eight will appear.

EDIT: This only seems to affect the C4. On the MCU, it behaves as you would expect.

Hmmm...

It's acting like you are missing this statement from your C4 Home Zone:

Zone Home
    OnTrackSelection MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets
...
ZoneEnd

Also, many thanks to you, @poetnprophet and @Freex for testing with the C4, I'm flying blind and for the MCU the Artist Mackie emulation provides only DisplayUpper, so thanks for reporting what's going on with DisplayLower

[edit] Geez been at it too long today I meant

OnTrackSelection MapSelectedTrackSendsToWidgets

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Hmmm...

It's acting like you are missing this statement from your C4 Home Zone:

[code]
Zone Home
OnTrackSelection MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets
...
ZoneEnd

Also, many thanks to you, @poetnprophet and @Freex for testing with the C4, I'm flying blind and for the MCU the Artist Mackie emulation provides only DisplayUpper, so thanks for reporting what's going on with DisplayLower

...and now it's working clean as a whistle Thanks Geoff.

[Geoff Waddington]

Just realized we could add another Action -- ToggleMapFX that would act like ToggleMapSends for the Selected Track -- then you could have OnTrackSelection and OnFXFocus more or less coexist on the same Surface.

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up.

ToggleMapFX now implemented,

Note you will now need the same two step process as MapSelectedTrackSends and ToggleMapSends like this:

OnTrackSelection MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets

someButton ToggleMapFX

The ability to turn SelectedTrackFX on and off like Sends opens up an interesting possibility...

What if we run the OnTrackSelection and OnFXFocus completely independently.

Anything with a FocusedFXTrackNavigator goes into a separate cue.

You can have some Selected Track FX mapped and if you then Focus an FX it too will get mapped.

Since you can toggle the Selected Track mapping at will, i think this will provide a lot of flexibility with just on extra press -- ToggleMapFX.

Now I just have to figure out how to build it

As usual, thought/suggestions more than welcomed...

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Note you will now need the same two step process as MapSelectedTrackSends and ToggleMapSends like this:

OnTrackSelection MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets

someButton ToggleMapFX

This is a great idea for MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets, because it does indeed mirror ToggleMapSends.

However, it makes less sense for OnFXFocus, because it adds one more button push to the process. You would have to turn on ToggleMapFX, then focus the FX.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still maintain the problem here is the OnFxFocus concept itself. Here's why:

i) It isn't in keeping with the selected track paradigm of the rest of CSI.

ii) It is difficult to ensure that when opening an FX window with an action(s) it actually becomes the foreground (focussed) window, so that the parameters load to the surface (believe me, I've tried). Opening the FX window with the mouse in order to load the parameters to the surface is daft It also relies on the window staying focused. Anything you do on the screen will unfocus the plugin window and lose your parameters.

iii) It's very difficult to know when the FX has become 'un-focussed', so that the surface can be blanked/zeroed.

iv) Navigating through plugin slots from the surface requires a fairly complex construction of custom actions. Doable, but not the last word in elegance.

I would propose that we only have MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets, with two options: All or individual.

The 'all' option is identical to what exists at the moment- all the plugins on the selected track map to the surface aka the 'channel strip' concept. Using your just added ToggleMapFX.

The 'individual' option, when ToggleMapFX is pressed, would present the available track plugins across the displays in the same way that sends do now, across 4 or 8 rotaries/pushes/displays- Freex's suggestion.

The name displayed for each would be the name shown on the Reaper mixer plugin slot (this can be made more 'display friendly' by using the existing plugin rename option)

Pressing the push associated with a particular slot loads that plugin's parameters to the surface.

Alternatively, if you don't fancy a menu construct, just put up the first plugin and have a way to step forward/back in the slots.

The advantages of this method would be:

i) In keeping with rest of CSI, so easier to learn.

ii) No question as to what plugin parameter's should load- focus unrequired.

iii) Easy to tell when a plugin's parameters should unload from the surface- when the user returns to the 'menu' or changes track (which would automatically return to the 'menu') or presses ToggleMapFX a second time.

[Freex]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

This is a great idea for MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets, because it does indeed mirror ToggleMapSends.

However, it makes less sense for OnFXFocus, because it adds one more button push to the process. You would have to turn on ToggleMapFX, then focus the FX.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still maintain the problem here is the OnFxFocus concept itself. Here's why:

i) It isn't in keeping with the selected track paradigm of the rest of CSI.

ii) It is difficult to ensure that when opening an FX window with an action(s) it actually becomes the foreground (focussed) window, so that the parameters load to the surface (believe me, I've tried). Opening the FX window with the mouse in order to load the parameters to the surface is daft It also relies on the window staying focused. Anything you do on the screen will unfocus the plugin window and lose your parameters.

iii) It's very difficult to know when the FX has become 'un-focussed', so that the surface can be blanked/zeroed.

iv) Navigating through plugin slots from the surface requires a fairly complex construction of custom actions. Doable, but not the last word in elegance.

I would propose that we only have MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets, with two options: All or individual.

The 'all' option is identical to what exists at the moment- all the plugins on the selected track map to the surface aka the 'channel strip' concept. Using your just added ToggleMapFX.

The 'individual' option, when ToggleMapFX is pressed, would present the available track plugins across the displays in the same way that sends do now, across 4 or 8 rotaries/pushes/displays- Freex's suggestion.

The name displayed for each would be the name shown on the Reaper mixer plugin slot (this can be made more 'display friendly' by using the existing plugin rename option)

Pressing the push associated with a particular slot loads that plugin's parameters to the surface.

Alternatively, if you don't fancy a menu construct, just put up the first plugin and have a way to step forward/back in the slots.

The advantages of this method would be:

i) In keeping with rest of CSI, so easier to learn.

ii) No question as to what plugin parameter's should load- focus unrequired.

iii) Easy to tell when a plugin's parameters should unload from the surface- when the user returns to the 'menu' or changes track (which would automatically return to the 'menu') or presses ToggleMapFX a second time.

That sounds pretty good to me,

In may head (as a C4 user) I had thought about the idea that Sends and FX slots could be permanently displayed on C4 for a selected track. With FX working as you've described.
Maybe with track name, input and output info also, like a track overview menu if you will.

Now what would happen if you selected more than one track, I don't know.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Freex

Now what would happen if you selected more than one track, I don't know.

What happens if you select more than one track with ToggleMapSends enabled? (I don't know, I haven't tried it) It should behave like that.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

This is a great idea for MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets, because it does indeed mirror ToggleMapSends.

However, it makes less sense for OnFXFocus, because it adds one more button push to the process. You would have to turn on ToggleMapFX, then focus the FX.

Totally agree, I guess my last post was unclear, ToggleMapFX ONLY works on FX mapped by OnTrackSelectiom.

It does nothing to any FX mapped by OnFXFocus.

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still maintain the problem here is the OnFxFocus concept itself. Here's why:

i) It isn't in keeping with the selected track paradigm of the rest of CSI.

ii) It is difficult to ensure that when opening an FX window with an action(s) it actually becomes the foreground (focussed) window, so that the parameters load to the surface (believe me, I've tried). Opening the FX window with the mouse in order to load the parameters to the surface is daft

I disagree, the menu system you mention below is great for larger format systems like yours, but i can see a perfectly valid use case for a user that has just an MCU Focusing on various open FX windows with the mouse and adjusting them with the Rotaries.

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

It also relies on the window staying focused. Anything you do on the screen will unfocus the plugin window and lose your parameters.

iii) It's very difficult to know when the FX has become 'un-focussed', so that the surface can be blanked/zeroed.

iv) Navigating through plugin slots from the surface requires a fairly complex construction of custom actions. Doable, but not the last word in elegance.

I would propose that we only have MapSelectedTrackFXToWidgets, with two options: All or individual.

The 'all' option is identical to what exists at the moment- all the plugins on the selected track map to the surface aka the 'channel strip' concept. Using your just added ToggleMapFX.

The 'individual' option, when ToggleMapFX is pressed, would present the available track plugins across the displays in the same way that sends do now, across 4 or 8 rotaries/pushes/displays- Freex's suggestion.

The name displayed for each would be the name shown on the Reaper mixer plugin slot (this can be made more 'display friendly' by using the existing plugin rename option)

Pressing the push associated with a particular slot loads that plugin's parameters to the surface.

Alternatively, if you don't fancy a menu construct, just put up the first plugin and have a way to step forward/back in the slots.

The advantages of this method would be:

i) In keeping with rest of CSI, so easier to learn.

ii) No question as to what plugin parameter's should load- focus unrequired.

iii) Easy to tell when a plugin's parameters should unload from the surface- when the user returns to the 'menu' or changes track (which would automatically return to the 'menu') or presses ToggleMapFX a second time.

i really like this idea too, and suggest this one is called ToggleFXMenu.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Freex

That sounds pretty good to me,

In may head (as a C4 user) I had thought about the idea that Sends and FX slots could be permanently displayed on C4 for a selected track. With FX working as you've described.
Maybe with track name, input and output info also, like a track overview menu if you will.

Now what would happen if you selected more than one track, I don't know.

You folks haven't tried with 2 or more selected tracks yet ?

It should unmap everything, the whole thing relies on the concept of current uniquely selected track -- "Give me a track, Vasili. One track only, please."

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Totally agree, I guess my last post was unclear, ToggleMapFX ONLY works on FX mapped by OnTrackSelectiom.

Ah, sorry, didn't realise that.

I disagree, the menu system you mention below is great for larger format systems like yours, but i can see a perfectly valid use case for a user that has just an MCU Focusing on various open FX windows with the mouse and adjusting them with the Rotaries.

Fair point, but I reckon once they start using CSI they're going to become incresingly 'mouse-phobic'

i really like this idea too, and suggest this one is called ToggleFXMenu.

Awesome

"Give me a track, Vasili. One track only, please."

Ah, the hunt for the focussed window

[Freex]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

You folks haven't tried with 2 or more selected tracks yet ?

It should unmap everything, the whole thing relies on the concept of current uniquely selected track -- "Give me a ping, Vasili. One ping only, please."

My excuse is I've just got back on the horse, been playing catch up and just got the C4 showing sends and effects the other night. So haven't got that far. But I would have pretty soon.

Now what Mix has been doing all this time I couldn't say


But seriously out standing work Geoff, and a big thanks to Mix for getting my horse clearing the fences (I don't know what all the horse references are about either)

Guess I'm just horsing around

[Freex]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

i really like this idea too, and suggest this one is called ToggleFXMenu.

So could ToggleFXMenu and ToggleSendsMenu coexist at the same time?

Say one splaying on row C and the other row D (again for C4 example)

Or

Could they both be assigned to the same row (D) and have a "redirect if" for the other.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Freex

So could ToggleFXMenu and ToggleSendsMenu coexist at the same time?

Say one splaying on row C and the other row D (again for C4 example)

Or

Could they both be assigned to the same row (D) and have a "redirect if" for the other.

Good point, will make sure to include the ability to define where the menu gets displayed.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Ah, the hunt for the focussed window

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up.

Hopefully fixed:
Low track count bug
Displays not blanking bug

Let me know what you find...

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Freex

Now what Mix has been doing all this time I couldn't say

He's been shoeing the horses and building the Configurator

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Good point, will make sure to include the ability to define where the menu gets displayed.

You don't have to have a menu, you could just step through the slots next/prev. I always put the plugin name (or an abbreviation of) in A1 (which is always Dry/Wet + Bypass), so I know which plugin I'm on.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

You don't have to have a menu, you could just step through the slots next/prev. I always put the plugin name (or an abbreviation of) in A1 (which is always Dry/Wet + Bypass), so I know which plugin I'm on.

True, but I think it would also be nice to be able to go from slot 1 to slot 6 directly, if a particular preferred workflow requires it.

If you dedicated row A to the menu, and rows B, C, D to the FX, you could get around VERY quickly. just another workflow for someone so inclined

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

True, but I think it would also be nice to be able to go from slot 1 to slot 6 directly, if a particular preferred workflow requires it.

If you dedicated row A to the menu, and rows B, C, D to the FX, you could get around VERY quickly. just another workflow for someone so inclined

Cool

[Freex]

Is this possible (in 2020)

That's also what I meant whe I talked about the FX and Sends Menu
With hopefully a way to show if a filled FX slot is enabled.

Obviously what is displayed and how is not correct. but hope you get the idea.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Freex

Is this possible (in 2020)

That's also what I meant whe I talked about the FX and Sends Menu
With hopefully a way to show if a filled FX slot is enabled.

Obviously what is displayed and how is not correct. but hope you get the idea.

Looks good, but you'll need to talk to the Organ Grinder, not the Monkey

[Freex]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Looks good, but you'll need to talk to the Organ Grinder, not the Monkey

Yeah, just throwing the idea out there, Geoff is the law, when it comes to what's doable and rightly so.

Just think it would be cool for ToggleSends and ToggleFx to splay like that.

Although I got to say, I like Goeff's idea of being able to "stick" the fxmenu when in an FX, OK would only leave 24 knows, but I think we could manage.

[MixMonkey]

I was wondering whether these menus could be built out of Zones, like we build pretty much everything else...

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

I was wondering whether these menus could be built out of Zones, like we build pretty much everything else...

Absolutely !!

@Freex, yeah, looked at the image, might as well do Sends Menu as well as FX Menu to keep it consistent

I'd be tempted to overlay them on one row though, leaving 24 free ones to map to your heart's content, but that's just me

Did anyone get a chance to check the new build with Blank Displays and Low Track count now working properly (hopefully) ?