Track Lanes Discussion

[Jeremy Gillam]

Originally Posted by schwa

Ah I see, I think it only happens if all existing lanes are currently playing (which is always the case when there is only one lane). We can fix.

That would be great.

To expand a little on my other suggestion for separate actions to "show all lanes" vs "show only one lane" — I'm trying to put together some custom actions that perform a function to only the playing lane, for example nudge all items on the currently playing lane, and I'm getting some erratic behavior. For example, if multiple lanes are visible and I run "40421 Item: Select all items in track," all items in all visible lanes are selected. But if only one lane is shown/played, only the items in that lane are selected. When I run a custom action "1) Unset free item positioning/fixed item lanes, 2) Select all items in track, 3) Set fixed item lanes" the result is still dependent on the initial state of the show all lanes, vs show/play only one lane toggle. So if I run the custom action with multiple lanes visible, all items on all lanes are selected, but if only one lane is visible and playing only the items on that lane are selected. I fully admit the possibility of user error — but I'm stumped!

[bolgwrad]

TL:-DR Double (or single) clicking a time selection comp area with 'comp source edit' enabled selects the whole lane item, not the time selection.

Has anybody flagged this before? NB This behaviour only happens with 'Allow editing source media while comping' is enabled. Without it, clicking on a time-selected item with comping on works as expected. (You don't even have to double-click, it's a breeze).

Long read: What I'm trying to do.
With source item comp editing enabled, if you have a few takes in lanes, some of which are only fragments (inserts), you can set a time selection to one of these, then right-click the comp area and select 'Add comp area at time selection' which splits the comp area at the original item - you then select your insert at the comp area and it's comped. Great, if clunky.

What I've tried to do using mouse mods is enable 'double-click on fixed lane comp area: add comp area at time selection for lane under mouse', which I hoped would eliminate a right-click, a click and a click in the target lane.

What happens (see gif) is that the comp area gets a single split at the mouse, which does not respect the time selection or transfer to the target lane.

[Wayland]

Hi there!
Seems like important issue here.

Reaper v7.11
Recording Audio + MIDI in lanes
MIDI track is in Record:Input mode
That way MIDI records even as empty item and lenght is identical to audio items from same pass.
Group tracks with Media/Razor Edit option

after recording only audio tracks are selecting, moving and trim together
No red box around midi items. Midi items could be only split with rest tracks.

Even 6.75 dev version works better - editing audio track in group doesent control midi, but editing midi track in group controls audio tracks

I was going to record video of both how 7.11 and 6.75 works with midi+audio grouping

But in the middle of experiment i found out some crazy thing. Looks like after i manually trim end of one take in all traks - grouping works fine again. Selects both audio and midi with red box, trim and move all together.

It seems like after recordig MIDI item is slight different length from audio. I check different ppq settings but it doesent affect much.

Now i realise its not exactly lanes problem, but i found it in context of lanes recording of MIDI and AUDIO (its very important when recording MIDI dr + live cymbals, or Real Synth audio + midi simultaneously)
Let me know if i should post this in other thread.

Sometimes it needs to be trimed from start too.

Pls let me know if there is some setting i could be missing, or it's really a bug here.

PS
I cant upload gif as it's 1.75 mb
And i cant attach it from dropbox - it says invalid file
I cant even upload it as zip

So here is images
One image - i select all 3 lanes in Track 1. Track 2 (Audio) is selected with red box. Track 3 (MIDI) is unselected
Second image - is ZOOM to show MIDI really starts a bit earlier (wich i suppose is a problem) (Image 4 is a test and yeah - midi ends later too after record)
Third image - after i trim both start and end for every lane - i select all lanes in tarck 1- and all other tracks are selected too with red box. and moves and edit as it should be

EDITED: just find out - Use Audio Driver Report Latency - when OFF - audio and midi records as group and selects with red box
BUT only clicking audio selects BOTH audio and midi
Clicking MIDI ignores group.
Half way there, but it would be perfect if Midi and audio recorded in one path will always be exact same lenght. (It could be even trimmed automaticly, just we hadnt make it manually to keep grouping)

OMG - Use Audio Driver Report Latency OFF - works only in dev 6.75
Back to 7.11 and it doesent help. Midi and audio recorded in one take - are different lenght and doesent group.

[MonkeyBars]

Wayland, I'm having trouble understanding from your descriptions.

I recommend making a LICEcap and uploading to imgur

[Wayland]

Hi there!

Hope now link to gif works

Tracks 1 and 2 - audio input
Track 3 - midi input

1) Right after recording groupped tracks - only top 2 audio tracks are RED selected
2) When edit those lanes later - only audio tracks are RED selected (grouped)
3) After i cut/trim both start and end of Audio and MIDI from same take - now it's groupping, red selected and move/edit together

This fact + Max Zoom in - shows that Audio and midi recorded together have some samples different Start and End. And it kills grouping

I have Reaper 7.11
Win 11
Aurora Lynx N

Maybe there is some deep setting to avoid this.
Thanks

PS
Im extremly sorry

I have done several gifs with LICEcap
The last one is 813*508 px
632 kb

I upload it on Imgur, copy link and it says Invalid file in Manage attachments

Tried Dropbox - and same - Invalid File

Has to done super small super low fps GIF to fit 256 kb size

[MonkeyBars]

Originally Posted by Wayland

PS
Im extremly sorry

I have done several gifs with LICEcap
The last one is 813*508 px
632 kb

I upload it on Imgur, copy link and it says Invalid file in Manage attachments

You don't attach it. You insert the image URL as an image on this forum

[Wayland]

Originally Posted by MonkeyBars

You don't attach it. You insert the image URL as an image on this forum

You are totally correct
As i mentioned - none of my attempts to link imgur gif uploads with Manage Attachments work. It says only Ivalid File
I thought imgur lets upload bigger and longer gif

Thats why i choose to make very small gif that fits to Manage Attachments requirements

Maybe i should insert link to imgur direct in message?

https://i.imgur.com/sNsluA3.gif

PS
I tried to paste Imgur "Copy Link" in URL of Attach Manager
Maybe thats why it says invalid file
I just tried to RMB on gif uploaded at imgur - and copy link of image.
Ok, now my link end with .gif
Uhhhu!
And Attach Manager now says - the file is too big.

[MonkeyBars]

Next time you make a LICEcap I would place a card to mark the start, but at least we can see it.

I'm trying to make sense of your garbled report. It's not organized. Your job in any bug report is to list the steps to reproduce in as minimal a fashion as possible, then list the expected result and actual result.

Nevertheless I can see that the MIDI is indeed not grouped after recording.

My 1st question is have you tried this without lanes enabled? What is the result – does the MIDI item group with the audio items properly?

[Wayland]

I've just tried to repeat this bug in fresh Reaper 7.11 portable install
Just choose my ASIO Lynx N

Gruop 2 audio tracks + 1 midi track
After record pass Midi track is few samples longer than audio
That kills groupping

Aftr i trim end of audio items and midi item to same lenght - grouping is back

Im sorry to specify RED box around items grouped by setting (Media/Razor Edit)
It was my theme color scheme
In default Reaper thats a Green box around item.

Still behaviour is same.
Even right after record pass - both 3 items are selected, but only two audio files are group selected

[Wayland]

The problem doesent depends on Fixed Lanes as i just checked

Still same with usuall tracks. Midi doesent groups until i trim audio and midi to exact same length. At the same moment grouping enbled, green box in this case.

BUG REPORT

Groupe some tracks with both audio and midi input
Group settings - Media/Razor Edit Lead Follow

Expected result - All recorded items are grouped, and edits in same way (select, trim, move, fixed lane comping)
Actual result - All Audio items from same Rec pass is grouped. Midi items are not groupped and doesent follow edit.

From my tests - i suppose it's caused by slight lenght difference. Most of the times midi ends unsynchronously with audio items. And someteimes audio and midi item start position differs too.
After trimming both end and start of audio and MIDI items to same value - grouping works as it should immediately.

[MonkeyBars]

then this is the wrong thread for your BR

post it to the Bug Reports subforum

[schwa]

Wayland, in your situation what is the exact difference in length between an audio and MIDI item recorded at the same time? One way to check this is to set the transport time unit to samples, then shift+double-click each item and read the sample length of the time selection.

[Wayland]

Originally Posted by schwa

Wayland, in your situation what is the exact difference in length between an audio and MIDI item recorded at the same time? One way to check this is to set the transport time unit to samples, then shift+double-click each item and read the sample length of the time selection.

44100

Rec from project start (wich makes start identical) - 59 samples

Rec 4 times from random bar random length - 73 samples, 74 samples, 56 samples, 60 samples

48000

From start - 60 samples
Rec from random bar random length - 66 samples, 65 samples, 55 samples, 75 samples



+ I've done test with Autopunch Time Selection
I was wondering if there is any difference in lenght when record exact same amount of bars.
In case with Autopunch Time Selection - every time length is same, grouping works exact after rec pass as it should including MIDI

I tried select time in Autopunch Time Selection and
1) place cursor exact in start of selection
2) before selection
3) in the mid of selection

And Rec. in all 3 scenario length was same and grouping works

All tests done in Fresh Portable Reaper 7.11
The only setting i set - is selecting my audiointerface in ASIO mode
Aurora Lynx N
Win 11


Last test - i uncheck use audio driver reported latency

3 random recs
Now difference is 245 samples, 257 samples, 243 samples

Time selection autopunch still works in all 3 scenarios i mentioned earlier
Length same, grouping works

BUT if i STOP Rec manually before end of time selection - again 250 sample difference, no grouping

[MonkeyBars]

Looks like Justin and schwa may have noticed this BR

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=289180

"+ Grouping: increase tolerance for track edit grouping to including items that start and end within 2ms of each other"

[Wayland]

Wow - sounds great!
I hope it will work smoothly letting group audio and midi especially in Fixed lanes tracking.


I supposed some under the hood matching of midi length to audio could done the trick.
Anyway the only thing that matters is user expirience - to record some tracks simultaneously and have them in perfect grouping!

Oh yeah! It works charming!
Just checked it out!
Great thanks and it's huge killer thing to record both real synth and midi out, midi drums+live cymbals etc etc
And to have all the takes in fixed lanes to comp and edit!

The only thing left - and i already mentioned it in this thread.
Now it's 100% correct thread.

Comping midi in fixed lanes automaticly POOL midi in Comping Lane with original take.

That means - as soon as i edit (move, quantize, change velocity or delete) any midi note in my comping line, automatically i lost original MIDI source
I searched Preference with POOL keywords

Only found - POOL MIDI on pasting and duplicating
Checkbox for - POOL midi on comping - would be IDEAL.

Or may be i miss some options elswhere?
Thanks a lot for any info!

[FeedTheCat]

I have "Show/play only one lane" enabled by default.

When dragging in multiple items, it plays all of them, but only one is shown:



Could this be improved to either showing them all, or playing only the first lane?

[FeedTheCat]

Something weird is happening when stretching comp area items using razor edits:

[Wayland]

Hi guys!
Have an issue with lanes, just check 7.16 and problems are still there.

0) Automaticly Delete Empty Laness at bottom of track

1) If lanes collapsed and very last one lane is shown and active (yellow circle)
And i delete/remove all audio from this lane

2) THe last lane is gone and i get EMPTY LANE with name of my First Lane (having tracks)

SO this empty lane could be called "1" or "C1" if i have comping lane at the top.
But it's empty and inactive. And clicking few times near lane name shows and hide strange Red Dot.


In Fact after small test i found - when collapsing Lanes - and every Lane is inactive, we have empty Track view but Name of First Lane, and thats confusing (Second gif)

It Looks like we see First lane (because of same name) but it's empty (while it's not)
+ red dot BUG (it deletes First lane name)


BUG REPORT

COllapsing Lanes with ALL LANES disabled -

Expected result -
A) More clear indication of NON SELECTING ANY LANE
B) Or maybe AUTO SELECTING First LANE

Actual Result -
Emty track with name of First Lane (wich is not empty) Very confusing

THanks a lot for your attention!
Hope there is some better solution. Especially if its not case, when User DESELECT all LANES.
I just checked. If i manually delete Exclusive Active LANE - Than automaticly Previous Lane is active. And thats logical. But after Automatic delete of last empty Lane - it suddenly works differently.

[schwa]

Fixing, thanks for the report. It might be best if the setting to automatically remove empty lanes was ignored when showing only one lane.

[ferropop]

I know it existed for a single pre and quickly disappeared, but indicating that there are items in hidden lanes vs literally showing nothing, was useful.

What I proposed at the time was to show the tinted peaks indicator, like what is shown on a folder if the children have media in them. It wasn't perfect and most people found it confusing, but I wonder if something along these lines - something way less intrusive but simply denotes "hey there's stuff here even though it's not active" would work?

[Wayland]

Hi there!

Im having some sync problem here comping audio + midi multitrack lane recording

BUG REPORT

1) Having Midi+audio group during record in lanes
2) Grouping now works okey, as far as i used it - always midi in sync with audio in terms of selecting, moving to lanes and so on
3) creating comping areas seems to work fine as well
4) Of course any crossfades or auto crossfades kinda move the edge of adjacent items. ANd as midi dont have crossfades - joint of midi and joint of audio differs, and thats break the group. I even don't have idea about workaround cause thats the nature of midi (not having overlapping and crossfades)
So i disabled autocrossfades on split and autocrossfades.
And it leads to better results

But sometimes editing comping areas without obvious reason - midi is falling out of sync.
Thats lead to totall mess in comping, as AUDIO plays LANE 5, and MIDI plays LANE 3

Real behavior - editing Comping line lenght by dragging the edge - (In lanes or in COmping lane) sometimes leads to having MIDI out of sync

Expecting behaviour - keep in sync MIDI and AUDIO comping areas whenever user edit them in MIDI lanes, MIDI comping lane, AUDIO lanes or AUDIO comping lane.

With greater zoom i can see - comping areas still creates small crossfades in audio, (even if auto crossfades and auto-crossfades on split is OFF). Wich is perfect solution for smooth comping.
But it may lead to MIDI sync lost.

Thanks a lot. Reaper is really almost one step away from perfect MIDI+AUDIO multirec in lanes.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/W6Wl0T0.gif[\img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/Nlw96EP.gif[\img]

[Wayland]

Hi there!

Im having some sync problem here comping audio + midi multitrack lane recording

BUG REPORT

1) Having Midi+audio group during record in lanes
2) Grouping now works okey, as far as i used it - always midi in sync with audio in terms of selecting, moving to lanes and so on
3) creating comping areas seems to work fine as well
4) Of course any crossfades or auto crossfades kinda move the edge of adjacent items. ANd as midi dont have crossfades - joint of midi and joint of audio differs, and thats break the group. I even don't have idea about workaround cause thats the nature of midi (not having overlapping and crossfades)
So i disabled autocrossfades on split and autocrossfades.
And it leads to better results

But sometimes editing comping areas without obvious reason - midi is falling out of sync.
Thats lead to totall mess in comping, as AUDIO plays LANE 5, and MIDI plays LANE 3

Real behavior - editing Comping line lenght by dragging the edge - (In lanes or in COmping lane) sometimes leads to having MIDI out of sync

Expecting behaviour - keep in sync MIDI and AUDIO comping areas whenever user edit them in MIDI lanes, MIDI comping lane, AUDIO lanes or AUDIO comping lane.

With greater zoom i can see - comping areas still creates small crossfades in audio, (even if auto crossfades and auto-crossfades on split is OFF). Wich is perfect solution for smooth comping.
But it may lead to MIDI sync lost.

Thanks a lot. Reaper is really almost one step away from perfect MIDI+AUDIO multirec in lanes.

PS

I just found separatre option for crossfades on comp areas.
Disabling seems to work fine in quick test. But of course perfect solution is to have this small fixed autocrossfades on comp areas and keeping MIDI in sync for smooth workaround, listening and so on.
Disabling comp area crossfades leads to clicks and pops on evry comp area joint, and user have to manually create crossfades after comping.

It's already works perfect now (with comp area crossfades enabled) but some times lost sync out of visible reason.
Second gif testing ones again with and without lanes crossfades

Perfect outcome would be smth like fixed length audio crossfade on comp areas and midi joint exactly in the center of crossfade to keep them sync whatever

[schwa]

To be clear -- grouped comping is working the way you expect with comp area crossfades disabled?

[Wayland]

Yeah as far as i checked a little it works fine, while with crossfades it ruins almost instantly as in my second gif.
Need to edit a whole song from a lot of takes and take a care look at midi sync.

And by the way - i cant find option NOT to POOL midi on comping
I really think we need option to edit/move/quantize comp midi lane.
At the same time keeping oroginal performance timing, velocity and so on in Lanes.

Without manually UNPOOL every take in MIDI comp line.

If i missing smth, pls let me know.
I just finished comping midi drums with live cymbals, forget to UNPOOL and it seems like while edititng midi drums in grid and velocity i also ruined original drummer performance takes cause of Pooling

Thanks!

[deeb]

When we record in "new lanes plays exclusively" we would benefit if we had a way to lock lanes so that they are not affected by this automatic exclusivity, and so keep playing and not automatically "muted".

We can achieve the same results with "multiple lanes play at once" but the workflow is different and we cannot ever change to "new lanes plays exclusively" in the same track since it will just ignore/mess anything that was playing before.

I think is feature that would allow more flexibility.

[smandrap]

Originally Posted by deeb

When we record in "new lanes plays exclusively" we would benefit if we had a way to lock lanes so that they are not affected by this automatic exclusivity, and so keep playing and not automatically "muted".

We can achieve the same results with "multiple lanes play at once" but the workflow is different and we cannot ever change to "new lanes plays exclusively" in the same track since it will just ignore/mess anything that was playing before.

I think is feature that would allow more flexibility.

Set the lane you want to hear as the comp lane and uncheck Create new comp areas for new recording while comping

[deeb]

Another request which is not exclusively related with lanes, but with lanes the problem gets worst since takes can be super tinny.

I posted by mistake in general forum instead of request forum:

Originally Posted by deeb

It's very easy to click by mistake and unnoticeable and change the active take, and so, to minimize this, i would ask devs to consider this.

1 - Currently we can change by mouse clicking the take we want to set active. Could we have a different modifier for this? Clicking is the worst modifier for the reasons i told. Could we have option to set it to shift + click or anything else?

2 - Option to Automatically lock to active take after recording. So that we can use shortcuts to change active take.

This would help a lot.

Active take changes just by dragging in the wrong place.

[smandrap]

[deeb]

Originally Posted by smandrap

not sure what is happening. 🙏🏻 doesn't look "play last lane exclusively" behaviour.


Play exclusive ON:

1 - record lane 1
result: lane 1 is playing

2 - record lane 2
result: only lane 2 is playing

3 - lock lane 2 (<- the request)

4 - record lane 3
result: lane 2 and 3 are playing

This is what i am talking

[smandrap]

ooooh ok now i get what you mean. Sorry completely misunderstood, i thought you wanted to record and keep hearing one specific lane only

[deeb]

Originally Posted by smandrap

ooooh ok now i get what you mean. Sorry completely misunderstood, i thought you wanted to record and keep hearing one specific lane only

Actually I thank you because you helped me realize the initial request was not clear.

[ferropop]

hi! this behaviour is plaguing me:



Basically, dragging the edge out so that it unsyncs, permanently leaves the item out of sync even if returning the edge to its original position. This is all a single mouse press, it's never let go.

I then show that this behaviour is Different (works correctly imho) when lanes are expanded. I guess it's something about the Comp Area edge being tied to the Item Edge that works differently when collapsed/expanded.


This feels really odd to me. I'd imagine if it realtime desyncs when going too far, that it should realtime RE-sync when returning. Every time, this requires expanding out Fixed Lanes and having to resync the item, for no reason.

Thanks!

[Wayland]

Reaper 7.17

Hi there!
I have an issue with new Overlapping Record Behavior


In usuall scenario i need it to be

Do Not Add Lanes
Trim Exicting Items

That means if I rec some demo voc or gtr, and have small overlap - i dont need new takes or lanes created.

But now in 7.17 if i Enable Fixed Lanes - For me it's like to say. Ok - NOW we are recording every take in separate lane. Thats why i enable this.

But with "Do Not Add Lanes" - it records in same line.
No new lines for new takes

So i had manually to select - new recording add lanes (new lanes play exclusively)

1) This option doesent present in Fixed Lanes Default Menu
Could we have more (almost all Fixed Lanes options) in default menu to setup?
Doing it manually for every new track with Fixed Lines is huge waste of time

2) Even more - IN FIXED LANES mode with GLOBAL OPTIONS
"new recording add lanes" is OFF
and
"Do Not Add Lanes" is ON

New items records in same lane.


BUG REPORT

Comping Lane presence affects recording in same or different Lanes
(Even with create comp areas for new recording is OFF)

Expectation: Comping lane presence Doesent affect recording behaviour
Reality:
a) activate Comping lane - new items records in NEW Lanes

b) If i deactivate Comping - it still records in new lane

c) After i delete Comping lane - its gone crasy

d) First item records in free lane. All next - records in same lane overlapping

My conclusion
I think not every overlapping needs creating new Lane by default
But Fixed Lanes mod - is kinda more about recording every new take in new Lane.
Like it start working as soon as comping line adds.

In overall - i suppose extended Fixed Lanes Defaults Menu - is the best way for every user to set up all Defaults for new tracks. Now it's really limited and Manually selecting all options for EVERY new created fixed lane track - is
irrational.

Thanks a lot for constant improvement of Fixed Lanes, its brilliant!
Hope my Text and GIFs gives picture of this issue.

PS.
Gif 2 - after Comping is off i see some strange behavior too.
So i add Gif 3

First item is recorded in selected Lane
All next - in last lane overlapping. Seems a bit strange too.

It's NOT Recording same Lane overlapping
It's NOT Recording every new item in free or new lane

It's smth strange betwin.
And only selecting RECORD in this Lane - records all new items at same Lane overlapping

[Wayland]

Reaper 7.17

BUG Report

Recording items into empty Lanes Selects New Lanes But doesent refresh Graphics - yellow Circle.

It only refreshes with Mouse over Circles Area

In COllapsed form same Lane Number stays, even if lanes are changing during record.

ONLY ADDING new Lane when out of empty lanes - REFRESH Lane number correctly

[schwa]

Fixing some of these behaviors, thanks for the report.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by Wayland

Expectation: Comping lane presence Doesent affect recording behaviour

There is special-case behavior: if comping is enabled, the behavior is the same as if "new recording adds lanes" is also enabled. Otherwise, new recording could go into the first playing lane, which is the comping lane.

[Vorticist]

I've been struggling with content from non-visible lanes being included in 'glue' operations, where I'll be trying to glue edits and end up doubling the volume from duplicates in other lanes and/or including unwanted material from other lanes.

In this case, if I hold shift and click to 'Add items to selection, if already selected extend time selection' and then 'Item: Glue items, expanding to time selection if any, including leading fade-in and trailing fade-out' then material from hidden lanes is selected and included in the glue operation.


If I do the same operation but use marquee selection instead of shift click, it only glues the expected items (at least in this case, I think marquee selections have bugged out for me too).

[Wayland]

Originally Posted by schwa

There is special-case behavior: if comping is enabled, the behavior is the same as if "new recording adds lanes" is also enabled. Otherwise, new recording could go into the first playing lane, which is the comping lane.

Can we talk a bit about Comping Lane behavior?

I understand from one hand, that Any Line could be activated as Comping. And thats kinda flexible.

But from other hand when i create new Comping Line Named C1 - as user i kinda feel it should be a little bit different. Like you told about recording going into this line.

The problem is - i have ability to add more Comping Lines from Menu
Called C2, C3 etc. It lets me try several compings and fast compare betwin them.

But when C1 is activated for comping, C2 became USUALL Lane, so New recording could go there, and thats absolute confusing.
As in my user logic - C2 should contain only manually checked and selected items.

My suggestion

We already has Record into Line option with small red dot near Lane name and status circle.

Could we have some option to mark Lanes like Comping only to avoid record onto this lines? Marked with small Green dot for example.

That make sence as we have option to Add New Lane from menu.
And option to add New Comping Lane.

I suppose Add New lane should be created as usuall
And New Comping Lane should be created with small green dot, that means full protection from Recording into this line (but it's okey to manually drag some items in such comping line)

Alternative way - is to make Lanes Called C1, C2 etc automaticly protected from recording

But thats more confusing and stop user from renaming COmping lanes

Thanks a lot!

[Coachz]

Yeah that makes sense to me. Comps should only be comps and not recordable lanes. C1, C2, c3

[AZpercussion]

Yes, I really agree too!
And the similar logic for Edit lanes.
It's always weird for me when I see raw recorded material on E lanes, it's difficult to distinguish which is which in that lanes.