Old 07-18-2017, 07:31 PM   #41
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Many good points here, I agree while in some ways the software emulations are cool and maybe close they usually are not exact replicas of their hardware versions. Fact is many of the hardware versions are not exact replicas of themselves. Reminds me of when guitar players were all over Gibson to build an exact reproduction of the '59 Les Paul Burst. Gibson did a lot of research documenting the measurements, features, electronics etc. of as many real '59 bursts still in existence that they could borrow. What they found was that they varied greatly in many ways that could effect the way a guitar plays and sounds and that no 2 were exactly alike. So it came down to "which '59 would you like us to build it like". Obviously they did their best to determine what was in many experts opinion the best overall features from all of the real '59 bursts and went with that for their reproductions. So todays'59 Les Paul Historic reproductions are actually a consensus or composite of features taken from several real original '59 bursts. So goes the world of electronics. I'm not sure any vocal doubler does the EXACT same thing as a singer singing the same part twice. There are too many variables that electronics cannot duplicate and even if they could the singer would not sing the doubled part exactly the same each time. That being said the software is cool I own more than my share for what I am doing but try to look at it like that Les Paul reproduction. In most cases the software versions are the best they can do short of the "real thing".

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Old 07-18-2017, 10:30 PM   #42
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Copying an instrument is a very different scenario than creating software models of analog electronics and acoustics. For the latter, everything must be achieved within the limitations of understanding of mathematics and acoustics and available processing power to pull it off.
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:40 AM   #43
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Yes Brainwreck you are right, I simply was stating an example of a situation where a company was asked to re-create something vintage, today, and how it never is as easy as it may seem at first. Electronics and software are very different but there are similarities. In old analog gear often two pieces of gear that are supposed to be identical based on make, model, manufacturing, and specs can sound very different. Even older mixing consoles that are supposed to have identical channel strips can produce different sounds or results from some or specific channels. You are smart you know what I'm saying. Even if they can work the math out there are tons of variables that cannot be compensated for and decisions have to be made to go one way or the other or some combination of the variables. And that process gives us plugin's.
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:11 AM   #44
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I think emulation and modeling has come a long way. Sure, if I has unlimited cash for the hardware, I'd go with that, but for the most part, after recording, mixing, mastering... U give the average listener the Pepsi challenge, I bet they won't be able to tell if it was achieved thru hardware or a software model of the hardware... In fact, I think the only people who can tell are fellow producers. It's like, I don't consider myself a guitar player really, I mean I play guitar but I'm not one of those guys who know everything about tone. A friend of mine was explaining how this pickup and that type of wood and this and that cabinet and cable achieved this and that tone and he went on and on..... It all sounds like rock and roll to me. I plug in my Chinese strategy copy and the only difference I could tell was his stuff had a kind of three dimensional quality to it. As far as plugins, I saw a video of a guy testing an actual reel to reel tape compared to the waves plugin, and although they were close, I thought the plug in sounded better.... Of course I was listening to it thru ear buds...

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Old 07-19-2017, 11:46 AM   #45
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Someone's actuallu trying to implement tape sound in analog hardware. Seems impossible without real tape...

And we already have had "emulation" for a very long time. Even before digital. In it's simplest form, it's just EQ and compression

But now, we even have emulation of famous eq's and compressors. I'd like something new...
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Old 07-19-2017, 12:03 PM   #46
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Someone's actuallu trying to implement tape sound in analog hardware. Seems impossible without real tape...
Rupert Neve is using transformers to act as tape heads. Basically all the circuitry except the tape.

http://www.rupertneve.com/products/542/
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:15 PM   #47
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Rupert Neve is using transformers to act as tape heads. Basically all the circuitry except the tape.

http://www.rupertneve.com/products/542/
Hi Karbo, I don't know much about this stuff, I see it's got saturation, is that to kind of simulate how hard you hit the tape?
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:24 PM   #48
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Hi Karbo, I don't know much about this stuff, I see it's got saturation, is that to kind of simulate how hard you hit the tape?
I don't know that much either, I think the best way to explain how I heard it is he is basically creating the recording head circuit/transformers and passing signal through them like it's a tape head possibly including the gap. I'm not speaking with authority but I'd be willing to guess some potentially larger percentage of "tape sound" isn't only the tape itself.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:12 PM   #49
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In old analog gear often two pieces of gear that are supposed to be identical based on make, model, manufacturing, and specs can sound very different.
And that's a good thing?!? Like consistency, predictability, and repeatability are somehow bad?

If you're honest, though, aside from real malfunctions, it really shouldn't and won't be "very" different. When trained ears listen very closely and critical, very subtle and slight variations can seem to be extremely important, but when you step back just a bit you realize that it's (sometimes much) less than a db different either way. When you step back a little further you realize that turning that one knob just slightly gets you the same thing.

People hold so tightly to this idea that "real analog" just has to be so much better than a digital alternative and it is frankly, demonstrably, empirically untrue. Maybe you'll never perfectly model the way any particular piece of analog gear fails, but who the fuck cares? It's all just filters and non-linearities. Analog or digital, you use the gear that does what you need and you turn the knobs til it sounds good. If you refuse to believe that it possibly could sound good, well that's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:34 PM   #50
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Rupert Neve is using transformers to act as tape heads. Basically all the circuitry except the tape.

http://www.rupertneve.com/products/542/
I had seen those when they were introduced. But at 750$ (US exl. tax), I can see other things on the list that might serve me better

I've also been contemplating DIY. Been reading a lot about trannies lately...

The transformers I have here atm, are unsuitable. Mic level. Too much distortion and saturation at even moderate line levels.

I could also include a tube. But that would add to complexity and I don't like complex stuff.
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Old 07-19-2017, 10:19 PM   #51
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I was looking at an old book on recording, mixing etc... Written in the late 70's early 80's. I noticed that at almost every paragraph, it would say something like '' beware of problems associated with... Too much noise can be introduced.... Unacceptable tape hiss can accumulate... Frequency response can get more narrow as u go on.... '' etc etc. I thought, man, if I were born back then and somehow travel to present time, where anyone with a computer and a couple hundred buck worth of gear can make quality recordings in their freaking bedrooms, I'd have to slap someone if they complained about even the smallest thing. We've got it made nowadays. I needed to check myself I guess. Make the most of what I have, which is alot more than most musicians and producers had back then (as side from the coveted analog gear we all want(
That's the beauty of digital. The only noise introduced in the whole chain is that which happens before the analog to digital converter of the audio interface.
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Old 07-20-2017, 11:38 AM   #52
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That's the beauty of digital. The only noise introduced in the whole chain is that which happens before the analog to digital converter of the audio interface.
Don't forget quantization noise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanti...nal_processing)

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Old 07-20-2017, 11:41 AM   #53
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I had seen those when they were introduced. But at 750$ (US exl. tax), I can see other things on the list that might serve me better
I wouldn't actually consider buying one either, it was just an FYI on how Rupert was approaching the idea. I don't really miss analog much and what I do miss, I have enough gear and plugins lying around to make do with.
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Old 07-20-2017, 11:49 AM   #54
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