v6.78+dev0317 - March 17 2023

[akademie]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

And if you want to select just all the woodwind items to do a midi function on them, but there are some ("") items that are woodwinds and some that aren't, how exactly would you select/filter those ("") items? You couldn't. You don't know which of the ("") items should be selected because they all have a blank name.

But couldn't a situation happen that in process of arranging you move bunch of items from "Brass" track (of course named as Brass-1, Brass-2, etc.) to the "Woodwinds" track because the musical content sounds better here than in original Brass track.
So now it ends-up "Woodwinds" track having MIDI items named Woodwinds-1, Woodwind-2, Brass-1, Woodwinds-3, Brass-2,... ? How it matches your example of selecting "woodwinds" vs "" ? Just asking.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by akademie

And BTW this is definitely nice and valid example of clean housekept workflow. At least for me (and Odys too, I believe

No, really, I mean that (Track and Project) Templates should not contain any suggested track names until populated with specific content.

No one is gonna add names to new tracks, don't worry.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

And if you want to select just all the woodwind items to do a midi function on them, but there are some ("") items that are woodwinds and some that aren't, how exactly would you select/filter those ("") items? You couldn't. You don't know which of the ("") items should be selected because they all have a blank name.

If you name your track "woodwinds", you should get it on your items. Please read my previous long comment, so we won't repeat what we've already said. If you have many tracks, how do you distinguish which one is woodwind and which one is violin? What about piano?

[Klangfarben]

Let me state this as a bug report and hopefully that will help clarify for those that are arguing about workflow/default behavior etc.

BUG: In Reaper dev0317, when recording midi into a track with no name, the midi item also does not have a name.

Previously in Reaper dev0316 as well as 6.78 Release and earlier, when recording midi into a track with no name, the midi item was given the name 01_Recorded MIDI for track 1, 02_Recorded MIDI for track 2, etc.

Expected behavior: Recording midi into a track with no name acts as it did previous to dev0317 and the midi item is given a name rather than left blank.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Let me state this as a bug report and hopefully that will help clarify for those that are arguing about workflow/default behavior etc.

BUG: In Reaper dev0317, when recording midi into a track with no name, the midi item also does not have a name.

Previously in Reaper dev0316 as well as 6.78 Release and earlier, when recording midi into a track with no name, the midi item was given the name 01_Recorded MIDI for track 1, 02_Recorded MIDI for track 2, etc.

Expected behavior: Recording midi into a track with no name acts as it did previous to dev0317 and the midi item is given a name rather than left blank.

Forget about what was before. MIDI recording should have same system as audio recording as I already stated many times, if you cared to read it once.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by vitalker

Forget about what was before. MIDI recording should have same system as audio recording as I already stated many times, if you cared to read it once.

Yes, I agree and read. AND +1'd the original feature request.

The ONLY thing I'm objecting to here is that newly recorded midi in a blank track now does not have a name. See above bug report.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Yes, I agree and read. AND +1'd the original feature request.

The ONLY thing I'm objecting to here is that newly recorded midi in a blank track now does not have a name. See above bug report.

Sure, I got it. You already told us many times. Agreed that it could be handled differently, but it shouldn't be same as it was before. Wildcard system should cover all the needs.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by vitalker

Sure, I got it. You already told us many times. Agreed that it could be handled differently, but it shouldn't be same as it was before. Wildcard system should cover all the needs.

Ugh. The "same as it was before" part I'm referring to is *ONLY* the scenario where midi is recorded on to a track with no name. The feature request that was just implemented - "name new in-project MIDI items with the track name, regardless of whether the item was recorded or created via action" - I am 100 percent for so that midi items are treated the same as audio items and we DON'T have Untitled MIDI item in the name. Again, 100% FOR THAT PART.

However, the devs overlooked the above scenario when implementing the feature request and I and others strongly feel it should be addressed. You never want a scenario where an item is given a blank name, especially since it didn't give it a blank name previously.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Justin

Having said that, I think it would be a very niche thing.

Less common things easily could be done by using containers instead of the "parallel" option.
-Michael

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Ugh. The "same as it was before" part I'm referring to is *ONLY* the scenario where midi is recorded on to a track with no name. The feature request that was just implemented - "name new in-project MIDI items with the track name, regardless of whether the item was recorded or created via action" - I am 100 percent for so that midi items are treated the same as audio items and we DON'T have Untitled MIDI item in the name. Again, 100% FOR THAT PART.

However, the devs overlooked the above scenario when implementing the feature request and I and others strongly feel it should be addressed. You never want a scenario where an item is given a blank name, especially since it didn't give it a blank name previously.

I know what you are referring to. No need to explain it many times.

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by Odys

W8 what ? Dude chill From beginning of time "basic Reaper functionality" is that new track name is empty.
Nice and blank is referring to that lol, and I would like for an option for it to remain that way.

Sorry if I came across a little brusque, but I'm not sure you thought through the ramifications of the request you made.

On this current Pre-release, there is a new capability for newly created items to adopt the Track name (like when you pencil it in). Great! However, it introduces a wrinkle that was never there before... what if a Track has no name? Then the item gets a blank name. That is so outside the norms and conventions and introduces issues like some that have already been mentioned on this thread.

I'm all for having a nice and clean template. From what you described, you could clean yours up even more by using Track Templates They can easily be bound to a Key Command or Toolbar button. Much cleaner than a bunch of empty tracks without names and with nothing in them.

But making the default Item naming behavior to be blank on a blank track is not a good idea IMO.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Thonex

That is so outside the norms and conventions and introduces issues like some that have already been mentioned on this thread.

What are the issues? Notice that you are talking about manually created items, not recorded ones.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by vitalker

What are the issues? Notice that you are talking about manually created items, not recorded ones.

Remember that part where you told me to read your posts? I'm not gonna say it, but...

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by vitalker

What are the issues? Notice that you are talking about manually created items, not recorded ones.

well, for example, It was brought up that when dragging to a desktop or other similar file handling you get "Unknown Render":



What is that? It looks like a bug. But more importantly, Exporting Items by Item name wildcard -- I don't want to encounter any odd collisions. The main point is... why fix it if it was never broken? What exactly is the benefit of a nameless item? Looks? Just use the SWS/BR: Options - Toggle "Display media item take name" action.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by Thonex

..<snip>
I'm all for having a nice and clean template. From what you described, you could clean yours up even more by using Track Templates They can easily be bound to a Key Command or Toolbar button. Much cleaner than a bunch of empty tracks without names and with nothing in them.
<snip>...

Can you elaborate?

We (some of us) want to have "bunch of empty tracks without names" either in project or ready to be inserted from TrackTemplates (or ProjectTemplates).
Their name will stay until something gets recorded in them or some FX inserted. Then it will be apparent what these tracks are and we will give them a name e.g. 808-snare-fills, Reverb-send, Parallel-Compression, anything.
So in this scenario, we will be recording or creating new items (MIDI) in unnamed tracks. Items would be unnamed too as it is now.

As I personally don't care if the items have blank name or any artificial global name (either with any sequential number added or not), other prefer to have the name. So we need to solve this riddle.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Remember that part where you told me to read your posts? I'm not gonna say it, but...

Yeah, it is you who is not reading. I've already made a statement about exporting items.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Thonex

well, for example, It was brought up that when dragging to a desktop or other similar file handling you get "Unknown Render":



What is that? It looks like a bug. But more importantly, Exporting Items by Item name wildcard -- I don't want to encounter any odd collisions. The main point is... why fix it if it was never broken? What exactly is the benefit of a nameless item? Looks? Just use the SWS/BR: Options - Toggle "Display media item take name" action.

You are talking about export here. For exporting it should use wildcard system as it does with audio (I guess). You probably miss the point. Users wanted to see track name in items, not empty name all the time. Wildcard system could exist for all MIDI items, so you'd get what you want. Does this issue happen even with named tracks?

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by akademie

Can you elaborate?

We (some of us) want to have "bunch of empty tracks without names" either in project or ready to be inserted from TrackTemplates (or ProjectTemplates).
Their name will stay until something gets recorded in them or some FX inserted. Then it will be apparent what these tracks are and we will give them a name e.g. 808-snare-fills, Reverb-send, Parallel-Compression, anything.
So in this scenario, we will be recording or creating new items (MIDI) in unnamed tracks. Items would be unnamed too as it is now.

As I personally don't care if the items have blank name or any artificial global name (either with any sequential number added or not), other prefer to have the name. So we need to solve this riddle.

You can set up Track Templates to automate and satisfy all of this (with names or without). Furthermore, there is no CPU/RAM usage until you load those tracks (another benefit).

I'm not going to go too deep into this... we're getting off track (pun intended). For example, do you always use the Viteal VSTi? Then create a Vital VSTi track just the way you want it and save it as a track template. And then bind it to a shortcut. Done. Now whenever you want that track, hit your shortcut... boom. This video is a good starting point: TEXT

But, honestly, I'm just saying that we should avoid UNNAMED items. It's never been Reaper's default behavior, and I don't see a benefit. Someone, please enlighten me as to any benefits of unnamed items.

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by vitalker

You are talking about export here. For exporting it should use wildcard system as it does with audio (I guess). You probably miss the point. Users wanted to see track name in items, not empty name all the time. Wildcard system could exist for all MIDI items, so you'd get what you want. Does this issue happen even with named tracks?

No, I was talking about dragging a MIDI item to a desktop. That was the example given.


Regarding item names, please tell me any benefit to having an item without a name?

[akademie]

^^^^^^
^^^^^^
Sorry but that's not what the talk here is about.

I assume we all know what the track templates are for and how to use them.
Anyway unnamed tracks in templates do not solve the problem, as soon as you add them to project they still are unnamed, hence no solution.

No need to save CPU here in the thread or otherwise organize projects either, it's just track names and MIDI item names what's the deal here.

[_Stevie_]

I don't want to lecture by any means, but after many years, this is what I have come up with. A pre-defined folder structure with "empty" Dummy tracks that I can fill with life. Folders can be hidden, that's what I did here:

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by akademie

it's just track names and MIDI item names what's the deal here.

Agreed, so someone please tell me what benefit nameless items has?

[akademie]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

I don't want to lecture by any means, but after many years, this is what I have come up with. A pre-defined folder structure with "empty" Dummy tracks that I can fill with life. Folders can be hidden, that's what I did here:<snip - screenshot removed>...

Don't get me wrong _Stevie_ , as this is nice orchestral scenario that you and other are using,
please take in account that there are also different styles and approaches. Like for example experimental etc. where nothing, again nothing is predefined.

That's why we use BLANK named tracks. Your template for example is totally useless for such workflow. We do not use "real" instruments and classic orchestration.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Thonex

No, I was talking about dragging a MIDI item to a desktop. That was the example given.


Regarding item names, please tell me any benefit to having an item without a name?

How are you doing that? I can't drag item outside Reaper on Windows.

It's cleaner. Better than "untitled midi item" or some numbers. You can always name your track and get names.

[n997]

Originally Posted by Thonex

[...] the item gets a blank name. That is so outside the norms and conventions and introduces issues like some that have already been mentioned on this thread.
[...]

For comparison, I've been using REAPER for years with blank MIDI item names instead of "untitled MIDI item".

The benefit, as stated before, is that having blank-named items reduces visual clutter in arrangement while still allowing for some items to be named, if necessary. Also, since attention [of a human's neural network trained for recognizing text] tends to be drawn to textual data, reducing amount of text in user's visual field may also reduce cognitive load, although this is subjective and arguable.

In many of my use cases, the purpose of blank-named items is evident from context (which track they're on, and/or visual preview of MIDI in them); while items which need special marking in musical context can be named manually.

Again, it's a matter of what purposes the software is used for, and how that is adapted to wetwares of specific users.
The use case which Klangfarben has described is understandable and worth having specific functionality for; and I'd hope that the case which I have described is no less worthy.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by Thonex

Agreed, so someone please tell me what benefit nameless items has?

for item I really don't know (and I am not the one who says that there is a problem), but since the born of Reaper the MIDI items had a name.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by akademie

for item I really don't know (and I am not the one who says that there is a problem), but since the born of Reaper the MIDI items had a name.

It doesn't mean it has to stay like this. If something was here from the beginning, then it doesn't mean it is good.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by akademie

As I personally don't care if the items have blank name or any artificial global name (either with any sequential number added or not), other prefer to have the name. So we need to solve this riddle.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think it's ever ok to have an audio file without a name? If not, then why would it be ok not to give a midi item a name? Because almost all of us here, including Vitalker, are arguing simply that midi item naming should follow audio item naming. And if an audio item always has a name, so should midi items.

So I'm confused here because what you seem to be arguing is that we should CHANGE the behavior to not give items names. Is that what you are arguing here? Because that makes zero sense to me. If you don't like the names, just toggle off display of item names. What were you doing previous to this pre when all the midi items were named "Untitled MIDI Item"? Were you ok with that but now aren't ok with the midi item having the track name? If you didn't care about that then why care what the default name is? For those of us that rely on the default name, it matters a LOT.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by vitalker

How are you doing that? I can't drag item outside Reaper on Windows.

Control-Alt drag on windows. Option-Command drag on Mac I believe.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by vitalker

It doesn't mean it has to stay like this. If something was here from the beginning, then it doesn't mean it is good.

Sure, I only added that info to emphasize that the state has changed and that's why all the talk.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Let me ask you a question. Do you think it's ever ok to have an audio file without a name? If not, then why would it be ok not to give a midi item a name? Because almost all of us here, including Vitalker, are arguing simply that midi item naming should follow audio item naming. And if an audio item always has a name, so should midi items.

To be precise: recorded midi items should follow this naming. Manually created items should have track name, even if it's blank. Anyway it is my opinion and everyone else has their. If the devs will find any useful info here, we'll see updating of this feature. Otherwise we should probably stop repeating ourselves.

[Thonex]

Originally Posted by akademie

but since the born of Reaper the MIDI items had a name.

Exactly my point. But with the new pre, blank track items can have a blank name (which Reaper never did before). I think that's a bad idea and I don't want to run into edge cases where I only find out after the fact.

n997 gave an example where blank item names are easier on the eyes. Again, my answer to that is SWS/BR: Options - Toggle "Display media item take name"

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Control-Alt drag on windows. Option-Command drag on Mac I believe.

Ah, okay. After many attempts I was able to do that, for some reason it didn't work. In 6.75 I've got "untitled MIDI item render 003.mid" name from track 1 (looks like it just increment number by one, regardless of track), which doesn't mean anything. In dev0318 I've got "unknown render 001.mid" for track 1 and "unknown render 002.mid" for track 2. At least here I know what was the track number. If I'd drag midi items like that, I'd probably rename them before, because otherwise any automatic name wouldn't be useful.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by Klangfarben

Let me ask you a question. Do you think it's ever ok to have an audio file without a name? If not, then why would it be ok not to give a midi item a name? Because almost all of us here, including Vitalker, are arguing simply that midi item naming should follow audio item naming. And if an audio item always has a name, so should midi items.

Asolutely misunderstanding here.
First audio item is reference to a file whiule MIDI item (by default) is in/project, there is a difference. And I think that audio item should have name and MIDI item too (also don't forget we have audio file recorded/rendered/glued... MIDI file inserted, recorded, created... - there should be some shared consistency in naming model).
And I wrote "As I personally don't care if the items have blank name or any artificial global name..." was meant literally that I do not use this as much so it does not affect me too much.

So I'm confused here because what you seem to be arguing is that we should CHANGE the behavior to not give items names. Is that what you are arguing here? Because that makes zero sense to me. If you don't like the names, just toggle off display of item names. What were you doing previous to this pre when all the midi items were named "Untitled MIDI Item"? Were you ok with that but now aren't ok with the midi item having the track name? If you didn't care about that then why care what the default name is? For those of us that rely on the default name, it matters a LOT.

My only concern is to keep having unnamed tracks

Items, for me, can have any name as I am used to looking at the "untitled MIDI item" for 15 years already So any improvement in item naming should be fine. But even if there is no name for MIDI item, it does not affect me, I think. Still I think that it should be named.

[Daodan]

Originally Posted by creal

as it is currently working, the first FX can be considered as hierarchically superior to the second one, although the signal flows at the same time in both FX.

I don't know if I'm very clear or if that makes sense to you. Please comment.

I agreee. FX in parallel should look similar.

[_Stevie_]

Originally Posted by akademie

Don't get me wrong _Stevie_ , as this is nice orchestral scenario that you and other are using,
please take in account that there are also different styles and approaches. Like for example experimental etc. where nothing, again nothing is predefined.

That's why we use BLANK named tracks. Your template for example is totally useless for such workflow. We do not use "real" instruments and classic orchestration.

This was only an example that you can structure a template. And this structure is of course not exclusive to orchestral templates.

[vitalker]

Originally Posted by akademie

Still I think that it should be named.

"untitled MIDI item"

[akademie]

Originally Posted by Thonex

...<snip>
n997 gave an example where blank item names are easier on the eyes. Again, my answer to that is SWS/BR: Options - Toggle "Display media item take name"

SUre, but if you read n997's post carefully there is interesting part:

The benefit, as stated before, is that having blank-named items reduces visual clutter in arrangement while still allowing for some items to be named, if necessary.

So while the SWS option to hide item names is OK, his descripton brings interesting idea of using blank named items to benefit.

[akademie]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

This was only an example that you can structure a template. And this structure is of course not exclusive to orchestral templates.

I understand, but in many other genres and doing music intuitivelly rather than as predefined rutine such templates are not much of use.
Rather smaller building blocks are usable then, that's for sure, but still, no exact names etc.

[Klangfarben]

Originally Posted by akademie

Asolutely misunderstanding here.
First audio item is reference to a file whiule MIDI item (by default) is in/project, there is a difference. And I think that audio item should have name and MIDI item too (also don't forget we have audio file recorded/rendered/glued... MIDI file inserted, recorded, created... - there should be some shared consistency in naming model).
And I wrote "As I personally don't care if the items have blank name or any artificial global name..." was meant literally that I do not use this as much so it does not affect me too much.

Right. But consider this. For some of us, at some point, the MIDI item WILL have a file attached to the item as well. It just happens at a later point than with audio. So getting the housekeeping right to begin with is very important. Because if not, later it can become VERY costly.

Originally Posted by akademie

My only concern is to keep having unnamed tracks

Items, for me, can have any name as I am used to looking at the "untitled MIDI item" for 15 years already So any improvement in item naming should be fine. But even if there is no name for MIDI item, it does not affect me, I think. Still I think that it should be named.

Ok, thank you clarifying that!