Old 07-16-2007, 05:56 AM   #41
Dstruct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,296
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER View Post
Okay that seems wierd, Dandruffs file normalizes fine
what does the normalize dialog display (gain) on your machine for the saw-wave when normalizing it?
Dstruct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 06:44 AM   #42
Dstruct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,296
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
Thanks for confirming! Yes, and these things happen to me also when no change of samplerate or timestretch is in effect...
Here a project with an example (drumloop) of this problem: http://www.outburst-audio.com/misc/normalize.zip (400kB)


You see three items. Last two items are just resized duplicates of the first item.

Go and normalize each item and watch the level-meters. I've added my results in the item-names. All items don't get normalized properly here.

Last edited by Dstruct; 07-16-2007 at 06:48 AM.
Dstruct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 06:59 AM   #43
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Default

Confirmed your normalization values. Audacity has no such problems and peaks at exactly 0dB.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 07:19 AM   #44
LOSER
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,373
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
what does the normalize dialog display (gain) on your machine for the saw-wave when normalizing it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER View Post
First off you got a different file than what you send "Saw Up A1 55Hz-imported-2.wav", but I assume it is identical. So I got +1.84dB Normalization gain here, while you got +3.76dB, which is likely the problem (hmm.. almost exactly twice what I got), anyway can you try to rebuild all peaks and see what that does also try it with the .wav that you originally posted.
And yeah I find this odd too (added for the sake of 10 characters).

EDIT: Yeah rechecked and its +1.84dB which will give me a peak of -0.1dB.
LOSER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 07:57 AM   #45
Dstruct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,296
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER View Post
And yeah I find this odd too (added for the sake of 10 characters).

EDIT: Yeah rechecked and its +1.84dB which will give me a peak of -0.1dB.
Saw Up A1 55Hz-imported-2.wav is/was a duplicate (100% the same file).

but: i just found the reason, why it doesn't work here!

set your peak-resolution to "480" in the preferences ...


with the default "300" it works fine.


but this drumloop-example http://www.cockos.com/forum/showpost...3&postcount=42 has the problems also with the 300 setting.

Last edited by Dstruct; 07-16-2007 at 08:01 AM.
Dstruct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 08:00 AM   #46
Xenakios
Human being with feelings
 
Xenakios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oulu, Finland
Posts: 7,929
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
You see three items. Last two items are just resized duplicates of the first item.

Go and normalize each item and watch the level-meters. I've added my results in the item-names. All items don't get normalized properly here.
Yes, this is the same problem I am often having! The meters also peak here at the same values as you have given on the item names.

-X
Xenakios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 08:07 AM   #47
LOSER
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,373
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
Saw Up A1 55Hz-imported-2.wav is/was a duplicate (100% the same file).

but: i just found the reason, why it doesn't work here!

set your peak-resolution to "480" in the preferences ...


with the default "300" it works fine.


but this drumloop-example http://www.cockos.com/forum/showpost...3&postcount=42 has the problems also with the 300 setting.
Ahh so it is kind'a depending on / related to the peak cache resolution ... I think this will help Justin to track the problem down.
LOSER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 03:15 PM   #48
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Default

Peak cache file - This sounds very plausible given that before normalization the wav file playback peaks at the same level in all my programs. Only after attempted normalizing is there something wrong (just in Reaper).

Do other programs have a render / playback peak resolution option like Reaper's? Can anyone enlighten me as to how other programs' analysis of peaks differs from Reaper's (and how it makes the process more accurate)?
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 10:07 PM   #49
Dstruct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,296
Default

regarding this whole issue,


justin: what about "oversampled" normalization to avoid intersample peaks/overs (not strictly normalizing to 0.0dB maximum)?

this would be really stunning and unique (as no other host already supports such thing).
Dstruct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2007, 10:42 AM   #50
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Default

So, is there an affirmation from Justin that peak resolution cache files were the problem? Or is there another issue? Is a fix going to appear any time soon?
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2007, 05:42 PM   #51
Dstruct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,296
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
Here a project with an example (drumloop) of this problem: http://www.outburst-audio.com/misc/normalize.zip (400kB)


You see three items. Last two items are just resized duplicates of the first item.

Go and normalize each item and watch the level-meters. I've added my results in the item-names. All items don't get normalized properly here.
it's better in 1.877, but still not perfect!


results:
item 1 = +0.4dB normalized
item 2 = -0.1dB normalized (ok for me)
item 3 = +0.9dB normalized


FIXED (1.885)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
Here two files where the normalize function seem to fail: http://www.outburst-audio.com/misc/normalize-me.zip

Saw Up A1 55Hz.wav -> Reaper's meters read +1.9dB when normalized
Square A1 55Hz.wav -> Reaper's meters read +0.2dB when normalized
still not working correctly (same problem) in 1.877 with the peak-cache resolution set to 480 samples/sec!


FIXED (1.885)

Last edited by Dstruct; 08-15-2007 at 04:36 AM.
Dstruct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2007, 01:23 AM   #52
bachstudies
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Default

Not being a programmer myself, I probably don't understand the intricacies of bug fixing. However, I do know that if this was an opensource program I could put up with the back and forth in forums trying to fix issues etc and know that a fix was just around the corner.

This is a program that expects a recording engineer to pay $200 for a commercial licence. Yes, this is a small amount compared to shelling out for Samplitude / Cubase etc. But I have news for you - this is not a commercial grade application yet. It has so much potential though. I just don't understand why the new version hasn't sorted normalization. OK - it's "better" to quote the changelog but is this really good enough?

Reaper has already let me down several times either through crashing, cutting short the final wav render, normalization. I want to support this program but finding it increasingly difficult to part with my cash. When it comes to pro situations I'm still with my trusty Sonar.
bachstudies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2007, 03:39 AM   #53
Jason Brian Merrill
Human being with feelings
 
Jason Brian Merrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern PA, USA
Posts: 20,850
Default

so let me get this straight, you mentioning a problem, and then within days (under a week) when the 2 people involved in the product have a presentation to make on one of those days, who both happen to be sick during that time, and who are traveling, preparing for this presentation, release an update within DAYS, to TRY to fix the problem....

thats not goood enough?

Im sure Justin will get to the bottom of this, have faith. Realize since we have had normalization, this is the first complaint regarding it, and it was jumped on immediately by Justin/Christophe...

im sure the problem will be fixed. Until then, workaround it. Were talking days, not months like other sequencers.
__________________
Beliefs do not require respect. People do.
Jason Brian Merrill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2007, 03:47 AM   #54
Dstruct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,296
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
Were talking days, not months like other sequencers.
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8912 (months, just one example)
Dstruct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2007, 04:35 AM   #55
LOSER
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,373
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
To quote from that post of yours: "how many bugs/issues did i report today? i don't know. here another one: [...]"

Maybe exactly THIS is the problem.
LOSER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2007, 04:51 AM   #56
artkau
Human being with feelings
 
artkau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Gauteng, South Africa
Posts: 271
Default

Well I am a developer working for the largest software company in the world (thats not a brag, just a hit and run for relevance) and I'm telling you guys that aside from bugs, moans and groans, the boys have delivered a stellar product, and patience will go a long way...

Or they could start releasing Service Packs once every 2 years? :P
artkau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2007, 07:18 AM   #57
Xenakios
Human being with feelings
 
Xenakios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oulu, Finland
Posts: 7,929
Default

I'm happy that the normalization almost works now!

I'm still wondering that maybe Reaper is trying to do it "too efficiently", based on pre-calculated data, that maybe sometimes too inaccurate for such a purpose. Why not have an option to calculate the normalization gain coefficient fully from a sample-by-sample calculation taken from the actual audio sample data from disk...? After all, that's how pretty much every other application seems to do it...It takes some more time to analyze the audio fully, but at least the peak level within the file/item might be detected more reliably that way.

-X
Xenakios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2007, 11:41 AM   #58
LOSER
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,373
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
I'm happy that the normalization almost works now!

I'm still wondering that maybe Reaper is trying to do it "too efficiently", based on pre-calculated data, that maybe sometimes too inaccurate for such a purpose. Why not have an option to calculate the normalization gain coefficient fully from a sample-by-sample calculation taken from the actual audio sample data from disk...? After all, that's how pretty much every other application seems to do it...It takes some more time to analyze the audio fully, but at least the peak level within the file/item might be detected more reliably that way.

-X
It seems as if REAPER already does this, while building the peak file (to get the maximum loudness/peak/sample in the file), but I could be wrong (at least the peak file (and analysis) is needed to apply normalization.
LOSER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 10:01 AM   #59
Dstruct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,296
Default

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showpost...7&postcount=51

justin? any clever solutions around the corner to get this thread "closed"?
Dstruct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 06:21 PM   #60
DuX
Human being with feelings
 
DuX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Underworld
Posts: 1,092
Default

I think normalisation is useless, and I never do it, but if at least it could be done to always be under 0.0 that'd be fine. who gives a f about 0.5db up or down, just not beyond 0.0.
DuX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.