Old 05-05-2019, 07:34 AM   #1
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Default I don't like the Reaper V6 Default Theme

I'm creating this thread so that the people not agreeing with the default theme design choices can vent without derailing the bug discussion thread

Personally I've never really used the default theme as I always found it too bright, but will reserve opinion on the new one until it's done.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:37 AM   #2
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What is the purpose of the thread, if White Tie won't read it?
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:38 AM   #3
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What is the purpose of the thread, if White Tie won't read it?
To vent Who knows he might even read it, but at least like that we don't derail the bug reporting thread..
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:50 AM   #4
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To vent Who knows he might even read it, but at least like that we don't derail the bug reporting thread..
Let's see.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:52 AM   #5
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The theme obviously needs more contrast and unification. By unification I mean it's made in flat design, but some elements (not so important) are convex.
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:06 AM   #6
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i don't like any of the default themes

lucky there are a million others on stash and i can edit them
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:08 AM   #7
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Quote:
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i don't like any of the default themes
Why so?
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:21 AM   #8
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Why so?
i dont like the look of them!

i have no useful feedback! just preference that has been picked up over the last 20 years of hosts i have used and old eyes! lol

i use a customised RADO V4 Basic theme

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Old 05-05-2019, 08:27 AM   #9
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I would rather to have someone teach me how to fish rather thea handing me fish. I would much prefer to see future development into making the theme easy to modify for the average user and not just keep handing us a theme.

The current 5 theme modified is what I use now and it works fine but it absolutely does not inspire me in any way like a great-looking theme should. The 6 theme I think it's very poor and when I look at other flat themes from the other Daws it seems that we have a very long way to go if flat is desirable.

Again how can we get the focus on making things easy for everyone to develop on their own?
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:42 AM   #10
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Again how can we get the focus on making things easy for everyone to develop on their own?
It's more unlikely than convincing WT about bad design decisions in v6 theme
Really, theming is not as easy as you think. It's not replacing images. Theming engine must provide some 'dynamics' (ie scaling, or positioning elements relatively to other ones) which are controllable by a theme creator and by end-user (moving GUI elements, enabling features etc). It's achievable by scripting language which makes it kinda inaccessible for people who are not familiar with programming (as language as well as a concept).

I admit it it would be possible to use some built-in GUI driven tools to create a theme. It would make possible to place image, setup its position, behaviour, relationships with surrounding...
But you know... it would be big piece of software, comparable in size and complexity to Reaper itself.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:11 AM   #11
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I would rather to have someone teach me how to fish rather thea handing me fish. I would much prefer to see future development into making the theme easy to modify for the average user and not just keep handing us a theme.

Again how can we get the focus on making things easy for everyone to develop on their own?
+99999 to this! If it was much easier, there wouldn't be such a noise.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:21 AM   #12
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It's more unlikely than convincing WT about bad design decisions in v6 theme
Really, theming is not as easy as you think. It's not replacing images. Theming engine must provide some 'dynamics'...
You should be aware that White Tie can only change the theme, not a whole design. It is rather a request for Cockos itself.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:21 AM   #13
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Unwarranted expectations for me. I had high hopes for v6, I was expecting something new. Modern flat design, non-system windows with theme design, the ability to easily redesign the theme elements, avoiding Walter problems... What do I get? Controversial, heterogeneous design. Old problems with resizing. The complication of the code of Walter, when even the modification of an existing theme becomes more complicated.

Not all my complaints relate to the new theme, I understand. "Unjustified expectations" - I am ready to admit that these are my problems.

But.
The interface is the face of the program. This is what we look at for hours and with which we constantly interact. This is something that we proudly have to show to other people when describing our audio workstation. Here everything should work for visual comfort and performance. The interface is a brand. Everything in it must be flawless, on a professional level and up to date.

Now I have a fear that in v6 we are missing out on all this.

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Old 05-05-2019, 10:02 AM   #14
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As a chronic default theme user, I'm really digging v6 so far.
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Old 05-05-2019, 10:10 AM   #15
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I had just a short look at it and I have to say it follows the Reaper way...

EvilDragon posted this in the other thread:
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But this "scripts can tweak themes" thing is actually NOT making theming easier, it's making it harder by adding another layer of complexity on top of an already complex system (WALTER)...
I find this new theme for myself completely useless...
Everything seems huge and bulky making everything more difficult and confusing...

This "preview" is another drop into an already very full barrel better to turn away from Reaper...
For me this all goes into a completely wrong direction...
I do not want to have another level of control of the other 10 millions level of control I have already...
Somehow many of the complaints made by hundreds of people seem to bounce off everybody responsible...

What Reaper lacks of is not more control or a different way of control...
What Reaper lacks of is making all this millions of features and alternative ways useable... and I don´t mean useable after I spent half a year on learning myself how things could work...
I try to be a producer... not a GUI hacker, scripts explorer, rocket scientist or an iventor of how I could use my computer keyboard in 5 different layouts and trying to memorize 250 shortcuts

I will have a look from the distance how things will evolve...
With the current pace it will take another 2-3 years until V6 will arrive...

Time to concentrate on a product where I can work with out of the box and don´t stumble from workaround to workaround and search in thousands of scripts if I can find something which could eventually help me...

But WT, thx for let me having an insight that things will never change... Sadly Reaper will stay a nerd tool and will not grow up with V6 neither...

Sorry for perhaps upsetting many peeps but everytime I dive deeper into Reaper my blood starts boiling and searches for a vent...
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:03 AM   #16
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Its not a DAW, its a tool box.

But I understand your complaining. It always feels uncompleted and loose to work with Reaper. But I guess that's the soul of it. And most people who love exactly that are very happy with it. I came to the conclusion that no DAW will ever have it all. There are always compromises. Other DAWs wont allow playing around with the theme in the first place. So in that case Reaper is probably the only one.

Anyway. I also was expecting a bigger leap to version 6 respective the theme. But I will adjust it to my liking. Anything else is out of range.
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Old 05-05-2019, 01:05 PM   #17
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...But I will adjust it to my liking. Anything else is out of range.
And this is I am soooo tired of...
No more tweaking, no more adjusting... I am done...
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:20 PM   #18
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Its not a DAW, its a tool box.
I think sandbox is even better term.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:32 PM   #19
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i don't like any of the default themes
lucky there are a million others and i can edit them
I do like the v5 default theme and I do like you comment a lot !
Thanks,
-Michael
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:20 PM   #20
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I'm putting my faith in lokesanna
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:38 PM   #21
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Back in V2 when I did my own theme(s), theming was quite easy – and in a way an addiction (which I developed when I was designing “mixer skins” for Samplitude years before). But we, users and themers, wanted to have more control over the GUI. So came WALTER. And as strange as it may seem, theming was still quite easy – and much finnier. If you had experiences in scripting, WALTER was Da Shit! If you didn’t, you could either learn WALTER or do it the old way. As time went by, users and themers wanted even more control; WALTER grew bigger and the range of components/elements got wider ... And now we have additional scripting which is great (and which I believe will replace WALTER).

For me it’s a bit bizarre to read about users who complain about, not only the default theme, but also that theming is “too hard”. Well, learn it! Actually, it’s not that hard. The art and concept of theming has become “not as easy as ten years ago” because users and themers demanded hipper theme behavior. The hipper the theme, the more sophisticated ways and tools it’s going to take to get there. That’s nothing new.

I am definitely not the smartest guy around here, but some posts appear to me as if the anti-default-theme poster (not necessarily in this thread) is demanding theming to be “easier”, not for himself/herself, but for other designers because he/she is too lazy to design a theme on his/her own.

I would say:

If you don’t find the default theme as sexy as you’d hoped for, and if you don’t want to design your own, there’s a good chance you’ll find a user designed theme that better fits your taste. (But it will never be as stable as the default theme.)
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:40 PM   #22
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I don't like any of the Default themes but I don't see the problem.

In fact, most of the people in this thread don't use the Default Theme ... nothing changes. I will continue to use mine ... we don't have to like Default Theme, even WT doesn't like it ...

Anyway the thread is useless WT [and the DEVS] won't change their mind (and you know it) ...
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:34 AM   #23
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I am also not overly thrilled with the V6 theme but it does not matter because there are some super talented themers in this forum.
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:37 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Vagalume View Post
In fact, most of the people in this thread don't use the Default Theme ...
I use it! That's why I want it to be better.
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:11 AM   #25
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Dear Vitalker, I said ... "most" not "all".

Anyway once it's done ... I am sure someone will do something that you might like. There are lots of capable themers here, you know it, we know it, WT knows it ... and even the DEVs know it.
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:25 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Valle View Post
Back in V2 when I did my own theme(s), theming was quite easy – and in a way an addiction (which I developed when I was designing “mixer skins” for Samplitude years before). But we, users and themers, wanted to have more control over the GUI. So came WALTER. And as strange as it may seem, theming was still quite easy – and much finnier. If you had experiences in scripting, WALTER was Da Shit! If you didn’t, you could either learn WALTER or do it the old way. As time went by, users and themers wanted even more control; WALTER grew bigger and the range of components/elements got wider ... And now we have additional scripting which is great (and which I believe will replace WALTER).

For me it’s a bit bizarre to read about users who complain about, not only the default theme, but also that theming is “too hard”. Well, learn it! Actually, it’s not that hard. The art and concept of theming has become “not as easy as ten years ago” because users and themers demanded hipper theme behavior. The hipper the theme, the more sophisticated ways and tools it’s going to take to get there. That’s nothing new.

I am definitely not the smartest guy around here, but some posts appear to me as if the anti-default-theme poster (not necessarily in this thread) is demanding theming to be “easier”, not for himself/herself, but for other designers because he/she is too lazy to design a theme on his/her own.

I would say:

If you don’t find the default theme as sexy as you’d hoped for, and if you don’t want to design your own, there’s a good chance you’ll find a user designed theme that better fits your taste. (But it will never be as stable as the default theme.)
The docs for theming are confusing for me. I'm gonna need a few hours of videos to get it. I wish they existed as I would watch them.
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:39 AM   #27
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Dear Vitalker, I said ... "most" not "all".

Anyway once it's done ... I am sure someone will do something that you might like. There are lots of capable themers here, you know it, we know it, WT knows it ... and even the DEVs know it.
I can see several problems with 3rd party themes:
- often don't support all possible Reaper functionalities
- are not default - looking for alternative theme is not what newcomer does at first step
- might not fit user requirements (monitor size/resolution), even if seem attractive on screenshots
- it's hard to find best fitting theme - stash doesn't help much. Actually the stash is kinda old-school like Reaper itself. technologically and visually. It's chaotic, messy, forces bigger themes to be split into parts etc.

I can imagine Reaper distributed with a few default themes. Let's say: flat, 3d, WT (maybe with color/lightness variations). Then at first Reaper run, it should ask a newcomer to select desired visual style, effectively informing there might be more themes available.
Yes.. it's more work to do. But if someone stating that there is a lot of 'capable themers', why not to include their work into Reaper default package?
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Old 05-06-2019, 01:55 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Vagalume View Post
Dear Vitalker, I said ... "most" not "all".

Anyway once it's done ... I am sure someone will do something that you might like. There are lots of capable themers here, you know it, we know it, WT knows it ... and even the DEVs know it.
I know. People don't use it, because WT doesn't listen to them.
It's not about my taste, but about design. Are you aware of design? Coachz said the wisest words here. Why just not simplify things, so almost everyone could change the theme? In this case it wouldn't be so hurtful and less people would complain.
It's not WT's business, but he is powerful enough to ask Justin.
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Old 05-06-2019, 02:12 AM   #29
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+1
I cannot believe were still seeing bitmap based ui's in 2020. With any zoom level, not whats been chosen for us, and custom colors.
Still in love with reaper and couldn't see myself going anywhere else, but I don't get why they focus on anything else than ui as of now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cool View Post
Unwarranted expectations for me. I had high hopes for v6, I was expecting something new. Modern flat design, non-system windows with theme design, the ability to easily redesign the theme elements, avoiding Walter problems... What do I get? Controversial, heterogeneous design. Old problems with resizing. The complication of the code of Walter, when even the modification of an existing theme becomes more complicated.

Not all my complaints relate to the new theme, I understand. "Unjustified expectations" - I am ready to admit that these are my problems.

But.
The interface is the face of the program. This is what we look at for hours and with which we constantly interact. This is something that we proudly have to show to other people when describing our audio workstation. Here everything should work for visual comfort and performance. The interface is a brand. Everything in it must be flawless, on a professional level and up to date.

Now I have a fear that in v6 we are missing out on all this.
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Old 05-06-2019, 02:22 AM   #30
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The Default 6 theme may be good for others but for me no. I don't think I will use it someday. It's good though that now it has script customization.
From my opinion @Blankfiles chooses the best colors / elements when it comes to themes.
I like his taste in making themes and I use them everyday, especially Hydra.
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Old 05-06-2019, 02:23 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Valle View Post
For me it’s a bit bizarre to read about users who complain about, not only the default theme, but also that theming is “too hard”. Well, learn it! Actually, it’s not that hard. The art and concept of theming has become “not as easy as ten years ago” because users and themers demanded hipper theme behavior. The hipper the theme, the more sophisticated ways and tools it’s going to take to get there. That’s nothing new.

I am definitely not the smartest guy around here, but some posts appear to me as if the anti-default-theme poster (not necessarily in this thread) is demanding theming to be “easier”, not for himself/herself, but for other designers because he/she is too lazy to design a theme on his/her own.

I would say:

If you don’t find the default theme as sexy as you’d hoped for, and if you don’t want to design your own, there’s a good chance you’ll find a user designed theme that better fits your taste. (But it will never be as stable as the default theme.)
I already have a perfect theme for myself, which I made myself. It took me half a year. This is the reason why I do not advise Reaper to all newcomers. That's the whole problem. Why make a repulsive or outdated interface? I want to be proud of my favorite DAW, and not blush at the mention of the interface (and I often hear it from users of other DAWs).
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Old 05-06-2019, 04:31 AM   #32
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The Default 6 theme may be good for others but for me no. I don't think I will use it someday. It's good though that now it has script customization.
From my opinion @Blankfiles chooses the best colors / elements when it comes to themes.
I like his taste in making themes and I use them everyday, especially Hydra.
And that is something I don't get. I saw blankfiles' Superior theme and it looked amazing. It doesn't have to be the same, because its a replica of Superior Drummer. But it looks consistent. And it would be a good starting point for a really pleasing default V6 theme. Why does Cockos not hire a person like blankfiles to make the design while WhiteTie creates the bone structure of the default theme?

In the planned default V6 theme we have totally flat elements next to 3D/photorealistic elements next to semi transparent elements next to 90ies internet button like volume knobs. For someone who knows something about design that looks horrible. All others just get a strange feeling watching over it. Especially new customers.

But anyway. We won't change things here as this is kind of Cockos' philosophy: Functionality over usability. Workaround over straight forward handling. But Reaper offers more flexibility than any other DAW. So as I already mentioned: Its a toolbox!
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:12 AM   #33
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What happened to the multitudes that come out of the woodwork to righteously proclaim "You don't mix with your eyes" whenever the subject of looks arises?

Anyway, I'm glad they're gone. Looks are extremely important, unless you're blind; then text-to-speech is.

And it's not easy. I started to re-skin a JS effect once...that effort didn't last long.
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:35 AM   #34
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What happened to the multitudes that come out of the woodwork to righteously proclaim "You don't mix with your eyes" whenever the subject of looks arises?

Anyway, I'm glad they're gone. Looks are extremely important, unless you're blind; then text-to-speech is.

And it's not easy. I started to re-skin a JS effect once...that effort didn't last long.
Good looks can inspire
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:40 AM   #35
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But anyway. We won't change things here as this is kind of Cockos' philosophy: Functionality over usability.
Except the theme doesn't manage functionality OR usability. If I can't read something easily, it's neither of those things.
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:52 AM   #36
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Proud Nitpicky user here.
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Old 05-06-2019, 11:34 AM   #37
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Except the theme doesn't manage functionality OR usability. If I can't read something easily, it's neither of those things.
You misunderstood me (or my non native English is just too bad).

(Edit: Good ...) design means in the first place to increase usability. The first thing I learned in my design studies was to look what elements are important and what elements are not. (Edit: Good ...) design is always a hierarchy of importance and a simplification of complexity. Then comes beauty! By definition!

If I open RSM5K I only see functionality. No design. No usability. It is just tiring to focus the right knob or input field even after years of using. Even if you know where to look, you need stressful seconds to find the right thing. The thing is there. The functionality is there. But not the way it should. People tend to love real life simplifications or abstractions. This is why we feel satisfied to see a graphical result of our doing.

So that is what I meant with functionality over usability.
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:21 PM   #38
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You misunderstood me (or my non native English is just too bad).

...

So that is what I meant with functionality over usability.
I completely agree. White Tie has tried very hard to establish a clear visual hierarchy with the V6 theme, but in doing so I think he's actually created more problems than he solved and so the overall effect is to make it less usable than it was before.
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:32 PM   #39
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I completely agree. White Tie has tried very hard to establish a clear visual hierarchy with the V6 theme, but in doing so I think he's actually created more problems than he solved and so the overall effect is to make it less usable than it was before.
For a guy that is such an amazing artist, I'm surprised how inconsistent it looks. Going the flat route I would have expected something like superior.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/34726/Superior.png
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Old 05-06-2019, 12:36 PM   #40
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Oh man! This looks fucking clean.
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