Old 05-28-2011, 10:11 AM   #1
Guido
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Default MIDI Items timebase bug?

Hi,

When I switch a MIDI items Timebase to TIME and then change the tempo of the project, the MIDI item plays faster or slower depending on the tempo. This should not happen.It makes it impossible to match a projects grid to an already recorded MIDI performance. The only way I have found to "lock" a MIDI item to time is to go into every items properties INDIVIDUALLY and set the Item to "ignore project tempo". Also when I do it that way,what a PITA, if I subsequently split the item, all sorts of weird oddities...mising midi notes and such....occur.

Plz confirm guys....

Plz..lets get this fixed? If it were, "reclocking" a song would be possible.

Guido

Here is the bug report on the tracker...big thx to PooFox http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3412

Last edited by Guido; 06-26-2011 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:34 AM   #2
musicbynumbers
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Just tried it here on beta 7 and it seems fine, you are using the tempo control and not the rate control?
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Old 05-29-2011, 10:28 AM   #3
Guido
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Just tried it here on beta 7 and it seems fine, you are using the tempo control and not the rate control?

Hi,

Thx for responding musicbynumbers...but maybe i wasnt clear....empty midi item..make 4 quarter notes...set items timebase to Time....change the project tempo....the notes timing changes w project tempo. Your system doesnt do that?

Any help appreciated...thx

Guido

xp32SP3 Beta 7

EDIt...The items "boundries" stay correct but the notes inside stay w tempo......arrrrrrrrrggghhhh

Last edited by Guido; 05-29-2011 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:17 AM   #4
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Reaper 3.76
I found bug with midi editor interface: grid lines don't match actual project's grid, especially when I try to zoom in. However, snapping works properly.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:23 PM   #5
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yes this is the most annoying limitation in reaper. midi content and item container respond separately to timebase. as far as i know, the only workaround is to open the item source properties and check the box that says "ignore project tempo, use..." like you said. don't understand why it has to be like this. it's the only way to get midi items to respond correctly to timebase.

should just be that the item continually updates it's reference tempo based on the current tempo or something since you can't change that property for multiple items simultaneously... very tedious workaround
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:23 PM   #6
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Not sure if this is a bug or not but until this is sorted we should at least have a way to set "ignore project tempo, use..." for multiple Midi items at once if we want to.
As said it's a pita going into item source properties for every item to do that.

edit:
I just checked and it v4 it works a little faster since you can go into source properties for multiple selected items at once but you still have to set the ""ignore project tempo, use..." tickbox for each item seperately.

Last edited by nofish; 06-14-2011 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido View Post

... Also when I do it that way,what a PITA, if I subsequently split the item, all sorts of weird oddities...mising midi notes and such....occur.
This is a valid complaint...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido View Post

Plz..lets get this fixed? If it were, "reclocking" a song would be possible.
Hard to know what the solution may be. MIDI by definition is 'clocked' to a quantization resolution that is tempo dependant, ie the REAPER default is 960 pulses per quarter note. So as the tempo is changed the MIDI item will shrink or grow accordingly.

Audio is clocked by the sample rate, which is NOT inherently tied to the project tempo.

To have midi clips behave like audio clips it is the MIDI that would have to be 'reclocked' Tempo changes would have to be automatically reflected in the MIDI ppq clocking. As Far As I Know
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish View Post
This is a valid complaint...



Hard to know what the solution may be. MIDI by definition is 'clocked' to a quantization resolution that is tempo dependant, ie the REAPER default is 960 pulses per quarter note. So as the tempo is changed the MIDI item will shrink or grow accordingly.

Audio is clocked by the sample rate, which is NOT inherently tied to the project tempo.

To have midi clips behave like audio clips it is the MIDI that would have to be 'reclocked' Tempo changes would have to be automatically reflected in the MIDI ppq clocking. As Far As I Know
Hi,

Thanks for taking ur time for this...in my yeterdaw, Logic, u would simply "lock" the item to SMPTE time... make all ur GRID changes ie tempo changes.. and then un lock the item..done. No ppq manipulation^^

Guido
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido View Post
Hi,

Thanks for taking ur time for this...in my yeterdaw, Logic, u would simply "lock" the item to SMPTE time... make all ur GRID changes ie tempo changes.. and then un lock the item..done. No ppq manipulation^^

Guido
My yesterdaw too, like 5 years ago now! I never did no-click MIDI + audio in Logic so I didn't know of this technique, could be a feature request in this : )

There is no real problem in the REAPER 'ignore' method except that it is counter intuitive, but there is certainly need for improvement when the 'ignoring' MIDI item is split and loses notes.

Of course there is the 'per-item' PITA on top of this, so maybe what we need to do as a FR might be like a global lock MIDI to SMPTE or something?

I'm planning doing quite a lot of MIDI + audio tracking, and to avoid these problems I've been thinking about doing it all to click (I'm working with students, newbies that is)

If REAPER can improve in this area so that tempo changes are straightforward and intuitive it'd be a great thing imo.

hamish

Last edited by hamish; 06-17-2011 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:14 AM   #10
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Hi Guido, I just did a bit more reading on MIDI and I think what is happening (or not) in REAPER is items (in project MIDI) being reclocked after time signature/tempo markers being inserted (tempo detecting the audio of no-click audio + MIDI recordings).

I intend to test out the case of saving an item to a new MIDI file after setting an item to 'ignore' and making the program tempo map. Presume that the tempo map will be written to the new MIDI file.

If this happens then the solution may be a feature request for an option or action to 'add tempo map to in project MIDI items' or something.

There are still a few REAPER MIDI handling features I don't understand like the 'ghost clips' or whatever they are, and correct MIDI or item options may still be relevant.
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:50 PM   #11
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I'm really glad there's some discussion on this at least.

This isn't a problem in other DAWs I've used either, so to say that this is a limitation of MIDI is not really acceptable (which is what I've taken from the developer stance on it), because clearly there are solutions in use.

I probably don't understand the technical points of the problem, but seeing as there is currently a (pita) way to make it work in reaper (ignore project tempo in item properties), I can see no reason why MIDI items can't be made to automatically update their internal tempo's to adapt correctly to time or beat (pos only) timebase. There simply MUST be a way to get MIDI items not to stretch in those modes. (and i simply can't imagine how it could be too complicated)

This is something that just glaringly doesn't work in any useable or logical way if you're trying to write a tempo flexible track with both audio and MIDI and ought to be fixed.

But at least the notes are staying in their item containers now, so maybe we're getting closer?
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish View Post

There are still a few REAPER MIDI handling features I don't understand like the 'ghost clips' or whatever they are, and correct MIDI or item options may still be relevant.
ghost clips (or pooled clips) are midi items that you can edit from any instance. if you want to make one small change in a pattern you have reapeated many times, you don't have to do this manually in each one. you can always unpool the item to make a new copy. same same but different.
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