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Old 01-06-2018, 05:42 AM   #1
SymboliC
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Default SSD Disk Performance vs Kontakt in Question

Hi,

I have some song templates for orchestration.
I store most of my sample libraries that the projects use/require in my Z drive which is a Samsung SSD 750 EVO connected through USB 3.0

In busy parts of the song where the total number of voices increase around 500-600, I have seen in Kontakt UI that disk read bumps up to 100%(red) despite I see a disk read around 30% in the Task Manager which creates drops&pops in sound.

What is the reason of this difference?

a) Is my CPU having hard times to cope with data transfers from my SSD?
b) Am I using my SSD's capabilities to its full? It is not compressed & indexing is turned off.
c) Is USB 3.0 connection method for my SSD the best? Any alternative?
d) At some place I've read that it's a good habit to distribute the most frequently used huge sample libraries between different disk drives. I have 3 libraries(2 full ensemble strings + 1 brass section) that mostly spikes the CPU and the SSD in question. Those 3 libraries reside in the same disk drive mentioned above. Should move 1 of them to my other disk drive which is an HDD? Will this make it worse or better?

I'd be glad if someone experienced would clarify these for me.

Thanks!

EDIT : Probably I have opened this thread in the wrong section. Can possibly a mod/admin please move this into Reaper General Discussion?

Last edited by SymboliC; 01-06-2018 at 05:51 AM.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:20 AM   #2
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Keep your sample libraries on the SSD, it's the best. With their speed, you don't need to distribute the libraries across multiple drives so much as it used to be the case with HDDs.

However, USB 3 is NOT the ideal connection for SSDs. Better would be to use internal SATA or M.2 or Thunderbolt, depending on what you have available.

BTW, I assume you're using the global DFD buffer size override option in Kontakt? To which value is it set?
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:19 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Keep your sample libraries on the SSD, it's the best. With their speed, you don't need to distribute the libraries across multiple drives so much as it used to be the case with HDDs.

However, USB 3 is NOT the ideal connection for SSDs. Better would be to use internal SATA or M.2 or Thunderbolt, depending on what you have available.

BTW, I assume you're using the global DFD buffer size override option in Kontakt? To which value is it set?
Hi EvilDragon,

I just wanted to make sure "distributing libraries accross multiple drives" is out of question when it comes to SSD. Thanks for that!

OTOH, Do you mean what options I have on my MOBO when you said "depending on what you have available"? My MOBO is an ASUS P7P55D-E, with specs page here -> https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/P7...pecifications/

I can hardly remember if any other cable set was there when I bought my SSD or should I look for it in my MOBO's box?
Also, if I choose to connect it using SATA, does this make it completely a new drive? I mean, should I change the drive letter already assigned?
Finally, I've also guessed USB 3.0 isn't the "best" option to go with while connecting it but is it worth to try, does it make a huge difference?


I've set the DFD buffer size at 6.00 kb in Kontakt. Tried increasing it around 12.00 kb but while it slightly reduces the stress on Disk & CPU, it eventually has a 1,5 GB more addition in RAM dept which rises overall RAM usage from 9 GB to somewhere around 11 GB in a system total of 16 GB. I'll leave it at 12.00 if I decide not to load more libraries nor new instruments within the current project.

However, I'll be glad if you clarify the SSD connection part!

Thank you so much!
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:00 PM   #4
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Hi EvilDragon,

After you suggestion,
I tried connecting my SSD using,

a) Intel P55 Serial ATA 3.0 Gb/s connector at first,
b) JMicron JMB363 Serial ATA connector for the second.

Both resulting in a much worse performance compared to USB 3.0 connection.

Now my SSD read is only around 80 MB/s and disk usage in Kontakt bumps up to 100%(red) zone having pops&cracks even at sections where only 3 tracks/instruments playing simultaneously with 100-200 voices at most.

It's weird...

Since I'm not a hardware guru, I don't know if there must be some tweaks/adjustments to be made through BIOS to use this SSD more efficiently or if my SSD or CPU has some problems with it...

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion...

PS: I don't know if this makes a difference but my Kontakt is residing in the same SSD with my sample libraries.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:47 PM   #5
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Hm, that's interesting/weird. Reading rate of 80 MB/s over SATA is extremely peculiar. I easily get 500 MB/s with either of my 5 Samsung 850 EVOs (this at 128 samples buffer size, I get double that voice count with 512 samples buffer).

I can pull 820 voices from a single SSD connected to a SATA port on my mobo, across multiple Kontakt instances. i7-6700K at 4.5 GHz here...


EDIT: I got it. You connected your SSD to SATAII ports. But even so, they should go up to 250 MB/s for read or write. Try the gray ports on your mobo, they are SATAIII and should support the full speed of EVO SSDs.

That's a pretty old chipset (8 years), so you might indeed be reaching its limits. I guess that can also explain the difference in how many voices I get to stream before the system falls over. Which CPU is in your PC?
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Old 01-06-2018, 06:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Hm, that's interesting/weird. Reading rate of 80 MB/s over SATA is extremely peculiar. I easily get 500 MB/s with either of my 5 Samsung 850 EVOs (this at 128 samples buffer size, I get double that voice count with 512 samples buffer).

I can pull 820 voices from a single SSD connected to a SATA port on my mobo, across multiple Kontakt instances. i7-6700K at 4.5 GHz here...


EDIT: I got it. You connected your SSD to SATAII ports. But even so, they should go up to 250 MB/s for read or write. Try the gray ports on your mobo, they are SATAIII and should support the full speed of EVO SSDs.

That's a pretty old chipset (8 years), so you might indeed be reaching its limits. I guess that can also explain the difference in how many voices I get to stream before the system falls over. Which CPU is in your PC?
Hi again!

For the past 4-5 hours I've done some trials and errors to see if I'm doing everything correctly.

First I tried SATAII ports as you've also suggested with IDE behavior under BIOS(I wasn't aware of that).
and then I enabled AHCI.

Did a quick benchmark on SATAII,
read around 267 MB/s, write around 256 MB/s

Then, I realized I had to connect that SSD with SATA III, so I did.
with more strange results.
read around 273 MB/s, write around 156 MB/s,

having a nice drop in writing seq while minimal increase in read seq.

If I'm referring it correctly,
SATAII -> 3Gb/s
SATAIII -> 6Gb/s
right?

Also my Samsung Magician tells me that my SSD is connected via interface SATA 6.0 Gb/s with AHCI Mode on it activated.

Just a little info if it makes any difference, I have only left 3GBs of space out of 250 GB on that SSD.

Also,
while Kontakt loads samples thru my SSD, I open up task manager and watch SSD drive read rate. It's around 150 MB/s at best which makes an instance of Kontakt with 2,28 GBs of samples load in an average of 40 seconds which is quite high.

Also, my 1 TB SATA HDD is connected through SATA 6 Gb/s interface next to my SSD. Does this reduce or interfere with the SSD's performance?

I think I have only one solution to find out. To Secure Erase the SSD and do a benchmark when it's fresh. Unless it gets corrected, I'll assume that it has a factory-error and I'll get in touch with Samsung's support service.

BTW,
my cpu is a first gen i5 -750@2,66Ghz / 4 cores. Maybe this is also the bottleneck for it?

Thanks!
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Old 01-06-2018, 07:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
I've set the DFD buffer size at 6.00 kb in Kontakt. Tried increasing it around 12.00 kb but while it slightly reduces the stress on Disk & CPU, it eventually has a 1,5 GB more addition in RAM dept which rises overall RAM usage from 9 GB to somewhere around 11 GB in a system total of 16 GB. I'll leave it at 12.00 if I decide not to load more libraries nor new instruments within the current project.
Hi Symbolic, are you sure about the 12.00kb and 6.00kb DFD settings. I've got mine set at default, 60kb to be on the safe side, although I have used 32kb without any problems. 6 and 12kb seem a little unreal?
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:29 PM   #8
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Hi Symbolic, are you sure about the 12.00kb and 6.00kb DFD settings. I've got mine set at default, 60kb to be on the safe side, although I have used 32kb without any problems. 6 and 12kb seem a little unreal?
Hi Tod,

Thanks for the suggestion.

However, if we're reffering to Kontakt(in VST mode) options and the memory pane, yes, it's set to 6.00 kB. It was the default. I tried 12.00 kB and saw that it had an impact of nearly 1 GB of additional RAM usage.
I can't even think of 60.00 kB as yours!
How much GB of RAM do you have installed in your system?
If it goes linear or directly proportional, then it will nearly add 5 GB of more load into RAM when I set it to around 60.00kB as you do so.
Am I wrong?

And this would make my system completely instable since I've already 6 GB left in my RAM dept with the slider being around 6.00kB...

Am I missing something? =/
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:00 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
I can't even think of 60.00 kB as yours!
Hi again Symbolic, here's what it shows in the manual.



It shows 60kb in the picture in the manual for the DFD Preload Buffer Size too, although it doesn't mention it in wording.
Quote:
DFD Preload Buffer Size: With this slider, you can adjust the size of each Sample portion that
will be buffered in memory for instant playback. This value applies only to Samples that belong
to Groups whose Source Module is operating in DFD mode. If any Group in DFD mode causes
drop-outs which disappear when you put the respective Source Module into Sampler mode, you
might want to try increasing this parameter.
You see why I can't imagine 6kb.
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Old 01-07-2018, 02:58 PM   #10
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Hi again Symbolic, here's what it shows in the manual.
....

It shows 60kb in the picture in the manual for the DFD Preload Buffer Size too, although it doesn't mention it in wording.

You see why I can't imagine 6kb.
Hi Tod,

You're correct about this and I've long forgotten that I've adjusted it to a real lower value like 6.00 kB.

But the thing is, everything was working nearly stable and better for me with that setting and just wanted to max out the SSD usage and advantage.

Since yesterday, I've tried different things and now the situation got even worse and I can't reverse it.
By this I mean, when I went back connecting my SSD with USB 3.0 as how it was before I experiment anything, the problem started to persist. Now I can't even play lightweight parts without disk overload with my old settings (SSD connected with USB 3.0 and DFD buffer is at 6.00 kB).

I did a couple of Batch-Resave on those problematic sample libraries in the mean time. Can this cause a bad effect like corrupting something in those libraries or even a file or protocol related to Kontakt's DFD setup?

The point is, I made it worse than before while trying to make it better.

Can possibly doing a reinstalling of Kontakt solve this issue for me? Is there a separate protocol for DFD handling of Kontakt that might have corrupted?

Also, is it possible to calculate the total workload in amounts of MB's if we know the number of simultaneous voices? I mean when Kontakt alerts me by flashing red in 100% Disk read, are we able to know how much data is being streamed at that moment?

There is either a failure with my SSD or something wrong with the current Kontakt engine/installation. I'm just trying to figure/spot that error.

Thanks!
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:51 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
Hi Tod,

You're correct about this and I've long forgotten that I've adjusted it to a real lower value like 6.00 kB.

But the thing is, everything was working nearly stable and better for me with that setting and just wanted to max out the SSD usage and advantage.

Since yesterday, I've tried different things and now the situation got even worse and I can't reverse it.
By this I mean, when I went back connecting my SSD with USB 3.0 as how it was before I experiment anything, the problem started to persist. Now I can't even play lightweight parts without disk overload with my old settings (SSD connected with USB 3.0 and DFD buffer is at 6.00 kB).

I did a couple of Batch-Resave on those problematic sample libraries in the mean time. Can this cause a bad effect like corrupting something in those libraries or even a file or protocol related to Kontakt's DFD setup?

The point is, I made it worse than before while trying to make it better.

Can possibly doing a reinstalling of Kontakt solve this issue for me? Is there a separate protocol for DFD handling of Kontakt that might have corrupted?

Also, is it possible to calculate the total workload in amounts of MB's if we know the number of simultaneous voices? I mean when Kontakt alerts me by flashing red in 100% Disk read, are we able to know how much data is being streamed at that moment?

There is either a failure with my SSD or something wrong with the current Kontakt engine/installation. I'm just trying to figure/spot that error.

Thanks!
Hi again Symbolic, so it sounds like your main problem is CPU overload, is that right? That could be mostly caused by your low DFD buffer settings.

Put your DFD setting to 60kb and then check out what's happening. Sure your pre-load will be a lot more but I think you said you had 16gig of RAM, and if so you shouldn't have that much problem.

I've also only got 16gig of RAM and I don't have any real problems as far as RAM goes.

If it turns out that RAM is a problem, then maybe see if you can be more efficient with your projects.

If you think there might be something wrong with your Kontakt setup, we can compare setting and readings between us if we have any common instrument libraries.

Let me know what you think.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:41 AM   #12
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Hi again Symbolic, so it sounds like your main problem is CPU overload, is that right? That could be mostly caused by your low DFD buffer settings.

Put your DFD setting to 60kb and then check out what's happening. Sure your pre-load will be a lot more but I think you said you had 16gig of RAM, and if so you shouldn't have that much problem.

I've also only got 16gig of RAM and I don't have any real problems as far as RAM goes.

If it turns out that RAM is a problem, then maybe see if you can be more efficient with your projects.

If you think there might be something wrong with your Kontakt setup, we can compare setting and readings between us if we have any common instrument libraries.

Let me know what you think.
Hi Tod,

Thanks for being kind enough to pay attention.

Actually I have pretty much optimized my Kontakt for CPU & RAM usage.
But this DISK OVERLOAD problem has just started recently.

All in a sudden in a project that runs near to perfection I started to get Disk Overload with flashing red at some parts.

For the last couple of days I have tried many cable setting on-board and did benchmarks with my SSD. Even wiped it out. But everything look to be normal with my peripherals CPU, RAM, SSD etc...

Is it possible that I might have accidentally corrupted some sample libraries because of multiple batch saves? or even my Kontakt installation at some point?

I was thinking of removing and reinstalling Kontakt completely.
Yet, I have another question. If I do a fresh install of Kontakt, what happens to my specific instrument settings in each instance of Kontakt? Will I lose them? Should I save the instance as a multi or can I reinstall Kontakt without worrying about settings i.e.(spiccato patch is active for some, sustain patch is active for another, reverb is adjusted, mic's adjusted etc)?

Thanks!

Edit : I have observed one particular condition with one of my libraries. If I load staccato patch for English Horns from Metropolis Ark 1 with the track soloed, it even gives Disk Overload with 20-30 voices at total!
And when I tried that, say, with trumpets or cimbassi I don't get any disk overload even with 50 voices at total.
I highly suspect that somehow some of my patches or parts of libraries get corrupted maybe? Because of multiple Batch Re-Saves?

Last edited by SymboliC; 01-11-2018 at 10:06 AM.
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