Lets talk about HARSHNESS

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Sorry, I don't

I don't either.

There is a certain level of diminishing returns (contextually) as you slide up the gear pricing scale - agree - but it's not fantasy. People who suggest that rarely - if ever - produce the kind of stellar quality that those using the high end gear produce.

They claim it doesn't matter but the end results seem to suggest otherwise. Of course, that's often dismissed as simply being that those who use the high end gear are - coincidentally - also just more talented ... a rather convenient cover. In addition, the benchmarks of quality aren't at the same places so while "good enough" is good enough for A, it may not be for B.

Can a good engineer get a great result with modest gear? Sure, but that's actually not the relevant question. The real question is, can he get - as good of - a result with that modest gear.

Now when people start - regularly - producing that kind of stellar quality with $200 USB preamp soundcards, I'll get on board with that idea. Until then, I'm not buying it.

I know, for certain, that my $500 M101 has a good deal more clarity than my VSL44 preamps. Anyone who disagrees needs to compare them for themselves first.

The implication - which is a little nuts - is that the vast majority of pro engineers who buy high end gear are, for all practical purposes, uniformed audiophiles buying stuff that makes no difference because they just don't know any better. That is - I think we can agree - a pretty wild implication.

[Lawrence]

As to NS10's, they are a studio staple for sure, but the idea that all good mix engineers still use them is, I think, maybe a bit outdated.

I'll take a poll of some working pros and return with the result.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

The implication - which is a little nuts - is that the vast majority of pro engineers who buy high end gear are, for all practical purposes, uniformed audiophiles buying stuff that makes no difference because they just don't know any better. That is - I think we can agree - a pretty wild implication.

Of course. And then we get the "But this record sounds great and they didn't use great gear" argument always comes up. And that's great. Someone used their weaknesses as strength. The problem is that what works for some art, doesn't work for all art. If it's "good enough for you" great. Go make records with what you have. But just because you can get to work with a beat up car, doesn't mean that no one else should use anything better. Ripped jeans looks cooler on 17 year old models tha it does on 50 year old men with a pot belly.

Originally Posted by Lawrence

As to NS10's, they are a studio staple for sure, but the idea that all good mix engineers still use them is, I think, maybe a bit outdated.

I was making a joke although many of them still do. It doesn't matter if I'm the only one still using them. They're still a tool that works and has worked for pros for decades.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

It doesn't matter if I'm the only one still using them. They're still a tool that works and has worked for pros for decades.

For sure. I wasn't contradicting your previous comment, only posing the question in general. But yeah, if something works for you, use it.

Thanks Kenny.

To clarify, there once was a time (way back when we old fogey's wore loin cloths ) where if you were building a studio you kinda - had - to have a pair of NS10's. Maybe no longer the case, is more what I was pondering, not suggesting that they aren't actually useful.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

For sure. I wasn't contradicting your previous comment, only posing the question in general. But yeah, if something works for you, use it.

Thanks Kenny.

To clarify, there once was a time (way back when we old fogey's wore loin cloths ) where if you were building a studio you kinda - had - to have a pair of NS10's. Maybe no longer the case, is more what I was pondering, not suggesting that they aren't actually useful.

I agree. You can make great records without them.

I just get pissed when people say "they sound awful" as some sort of "I know better than the rest of you who have been making records for decades."

My drill doesn't sound pretty either but it makes perfectly round holes. Until you've mastered the art of mixing (and I haven't and never will) you can't really decide what won't work well for the rest of us.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I just get pissed when people say "they sound awful" as some sort of "I know better than the rest of you who have been making records for decades."

True. They certainly don't sound awful, and they were / still are the most common reference monitor you'll see in just about any full time commercial studio. No doubt about it.

I agree with sentence two above also, but I'd add "great" in front of "records" because for the last 20 years or so just about anyone with a computer or 8 track reel to reel can make a record.

To your point ... not everyone can make a great record... or make a living doing that.

[Win Conway]

So you want harsh comments, fine
You have GAS, you need to justify your purchases and name dropping is a great way to back up nonsense

I come from a country where people who spout about needing expensive gear get laughed at because we invent genres with little to no gear.

And Kenny your silly comments have been noted.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

So you want harsh comments, fine
You have GAS,

Gadget Acquisition Syndrome?

Nah. I bought all my mics and preamps years ago. Haven't even considered another piece of analog front end gear in years.

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

you need to justify your purchases

Nah. I hear the difference. If you don't. That's OK. But I'm not going to pretend to not hear things to make other people feel better about not having them. Some people took a lot of time designing the equipment I use and I'm not going to devalue their work.

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

and name dropping is a great way to back up nonsense

Did I drop names? Or is this about NS10s?

Either way. I've stated that I don't care if I'm the only one mixing on them. They work for me. Again, I'm not going to use different speakers just to make other people feel better about not liking my speakers.

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

I come from a country where people who spout about needing expensive gear get laughed at because we invent genres with little to no gear.

And that's great. If it wasn't for my country doing the opposite, what you're doing wouldn't be as "cool".

Hit records and records that people love are not about gear. But the OP didn't ask how to make great music. It was a sonic question to which I replied with a sonic answer.

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

And Kenny your silly comments have been noted.

Then you received them the way that they were meant. I was laughing as I typed.

[Win Conway]

Glad you are laughing at me, maybe one day I will return the favour

[Kenny Gioia]

Wasn't laughing "at" you.

I was laughing at the silliness of defending quality gear.

Here is the way I look at it. I am a professional. That doesn't mean that I'm great or that I'm better than you. It just means that it's my profession. So I do it everyday and I need better equipment to last with my work schedule.

Many DAW users are hobbyists. The way I am with my woodworking. I (for fun) like to build wood furniture. I build desks, dining tables, built in shelving etc. I do it for the love of it and it makes my home nicer.

But I'm not a professional. My drill cost $70. My table saw and my mitre saw were both about $125 each.

A professional would laugh at what I use. I could argue that my equipment does what it needs to do. And it does. But I don't think the professional is a fool for buying equipment that costs 10X what I have. He knows his business.

[Win Conway]

Great analogy
A craftsman will never disrespect cheap tools for the 'quality' of work they undertake, they disrespect them for the 'amount' of work they can undertake before going bad.
And a very very old saying "A good workman never blames his tools"

Great you are a professional, glad that is working out for you, but my initial points still stand...

1 You don't need NS10s or great pre amps to get rid of harshness
2 Stating that you do is a wild generalised statement
3 Blind tests have proven again and again that 'great' gear of the past is not as great as even its owners believe it is
4 Vast amounts of room fixes and gear aquisition is beyond the average home recordist (99% of this forum including the developers of the software)
5 EQ is most likely the solution (Is in most cases of sound fixing)


At some point people will have to embrace the technology around them and not pretend to do so, this happens in all forms of workplace, the grass was always greener in the good old days, it is invariably wrong but the romantic notion that it is somehow true that for instance a big old analogue desk is better than Protools or indeed Reaper is laughable at best "it adds a little something" or "I can hear the difference" is nothing but dubious and reminds me of the days we used to create the magic fader.

Enjoy your old "great preamps" but don't try and negate the great preamps or any other tech that is available right now, simply because it doesn't cost enough or wasn't built by somebody famed or took many man hours to design because a company like "That" actually put the reference schematics on their site for anybody to use.

Right now there are two schools of thinking in most professional circles over here (Not just audio but video and construction and so on too)
1 I shall get this perfect as i create/record/build
2 Just get it done and i'll fix it afterwards

Both valid points of view and both having very very different thoughts on what gear to use

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

1 You don't need NS10s or great pre amps to get rid of harshness

Where did I state this? I stated that using better (or great) preamps would reduce harshness. Or to use a better term, it would never create harshness in the first place. I cut my teeth on a Neve 8068. Worked on it for about 6 years. The way it was designed, you couldn't mess anything up. The EQ was very broad and the frequencies didn't overlap the way most consoles did. It was foolproof. Plus, it sounded so good without EQ, you didn't need much.

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

2 Stating that you do is a wild generalised statement

I've been posting on internet forums for more than a decade but you would have a tough time finding me ever say that anyone "needs" anything. I give suggestions.

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

3 Blind tests have proven again and again that 'great' gear of the past is not as great as even its owners believe it is

Wow. Just Wow.

Blind tests have proven no such thing. Even if you used a "provable" term. What type of test can prove " that 'great' gear of the past is not as great as even its owners believe it is"?

What is that even measured with?

And why hasn't the price of vintage gear dropped being that it's been proven to all of the owners of said gear?

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Vast amounts of room fixes

Where did I mention "room fixes"?

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

and gear aquisition is beyond the average home recordist (99% of this forum including the developers of the software)

Am I supposed to censor my advice to only the solutions that 99% of this forum can afford?

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

5 EQ is most likely the solution (Is in most cases of sound fixing)

Yeah. EQ fixes everything. Because there's no quality or sonic integrity to sound. It's all equal and EQ can change a monkey into a guerilla.

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

At some point people will have to embrace the technology around them and not pretend to do so, this happens in all forms of workplace, the grass was always greener in the good old days, it is invariably wrong but the romantic notion that it is somehow true that for instance a big old analogue desk is better than Protools or indeed Reaper is laughable at best "it adds a little something" or "I can hear the difference" is nothing but dubious and reminds me of the days we used to create the magic fader.

How did high quality preamps become "the good ole' days"?

Lots of companies still making this stuff. I'm sorry that you've never experienced working on a great analog console but I'm not going to pretend I haven't just so you can feel a little more secure in your mediocrity.

[Cosmic]

Thats enough lads.Knock it on the head for fucks sake.

[karbomusic]

Lots of companies still making this stuff.

I'd gander it's even more than before. Just picked up one a few weeks ago. However, I'm less and less interested in sharing it on the net due to threads like these. It just goes south. All I can say is I went without decent ones for very many years always hoping it didn't make the difference I needed.

It's not like I wanted to spend the money jeez but if anyone wants to argue that hacking away in a DAW is as good as getting it right going in, it pretty much speaks for itself and that's not aimed at anyone here. It does however, require the person have that realization through their own experience, if they never have it, not much use in trying to prove it.

IMHO its just as much a disservice to someone who needs better gear to keep convincing them quality stuff is irrelevant, just EQ it but I digress. I think EQ is one of the most abused tools on the planet personally because it can never truly fix what could have been captured properly on the way in; is this not formally taught anymore? I figured that out the first time I tried to "fix" something with EQ 30 years ago.

[Kihoalu]

.

Not to interrupt the MGIBTYG and MGIWTYG (but I don't care) arguments, but another source of "Harshness" is harmonic and/or inharmonic distortion. Cheap Mics and/or not watching levels (gain staging) can result in the such distortion. Piezo acoustic guitar pickups are notorious for a distortion called "quack" which, if you bring down the midrange (2K or so) to reduce it, will still yield a harsh tone for the mid-uppers. Overdriving the inputs of a mic preamp is also a common way to get "harshness". Of course most modern preamps use a variable gain input stage (which is hard to drive into distortion unless one is very sloppy), but not all designs are this way.

Carry On...

.

[karbomusic]

Overdriving the inputs of a mic preamp is also a common way to get "harshness".

That's what Kenny was trying to say. The better ones don't do that at all; it simply doesn't exist and they actually sound better comparatively when pushed. Seriously, really. That's the problem with the Internet listening tests, they place the gear in their best possible range trying to create a "valid test" and that's many times not where the differences that matter arise nor is it where they are going to be used much of the time because preamps have to deal with conditions which aren't always perfect. Take them out of their perfect sweet spot and the lesser ones get nasty where the better ones shine.

[Win Conway]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I'm sorry that you've never experienced working on a great analog console but I'm not going to pretend I haven't just so you can feel a little more secure in your mediocrity.

And that one line shows just how arrogant you actually are, hope you enjoy throwing insults around and assuming that you know more than you do, you have no idea what consoles i have used, or indeed what i even do but you call me mediocre because i disagree with you, well done, really shown your true colors

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

It does however, require the person have that realization through their own experience, if they never have it, not much use in trying to prove it.

Absolutely. But I never assume the only person reading my retorts are the ones I'm responding to.

Other people might be curious why their not achieving the results they desire. For every close minded person out there, there has to be at least 10 lurkers who still don't think they have it all figured out.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

And that one line shows just how arrogant you actually are, hope you enjoy throwing insults around and assuming that you know more than you do, you have no idea what consoles i have used, or indeed what i even do but you call me mediocre because i disagree with you, well done, really shown your true colors

I've yet to meet anyone with real experience with analog consoles who disrespects them and sonic quality the way you do.

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

the romantic notion that it is somehow true that for instance a big old analogue desk is better than Protools or indeed Reaper is laughable at best

So either my assumptions are correct, or you're my first.

You've broken my cherry.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Right now there are two schools of thinking in most professional circles over here

1 I shall get this perfect as i create/record/build
2 Just get it done and i'll fix it afterwards

Both valid points of view and both having very very different thoughts on what gear to use

Number 2 is not a valid point of view. It's a compromise due to time, money or inexperience.

Does it happen? Of course but can we admit it's not optimal?

Or do we have to promote "good enough" to "great" to not hurt anyone's feelings?

[Win Conway]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I've yet to meet anyone with real experience with analog consoles who disrespects them and sonic quality the way you do.

So either my assumptions are correct, or you're my first.

You've broken my cherry.

And i disrespect analogue consoles and their sonic quality where exactly ?
Throwing insults and calling me names is one thing, but putting words in my mouth too, not entirely sure what to expect next.

"the romantic notion that it is somehow true that for instance a big old analogue desk is better than Protools or indeed Reaper is laughable at best"

That is not a disrespect to analogue consoles or their sonic quality, so please do not back track.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

And i disrespect analogue consoles and their sonic quality where exactly ?

Uhhh

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

the romantic notion that it is somehow true that for instance a big old analogue desk is better than Protools or indeed Reaper is laughable at best

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Throwing insults and calling me names is one thing, but putting words in my mouth too, not entirely sure what to expect next.

Putting words in your mouth????



Correct me if I'm wrong but this did start with this:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

So harshness can only be rectified using great preamps and mixing on NS10s ?
For your sake i really hope that isn't what you inferred, plenty of great music/mixes have been achieved on mediocre by todays standards preamps and certainly many many more have been achieved without ever going through or even near a set of NS10s.
Wildly generalized statements like that are not much use to anybody really

And where exactly did I insult you?

You brought up "mediocrity" as being somehow "Good enough".

I was merely referring to your boasting about it.

[Win Conway]

So you are saying that me saying that analogue desks are not better than Protools or Reaper is disrespecting their sonic quality, wow you really have a low opinion of Reaper and Protools right (Don't you make money off both of these ? )

And yes you started to throw personal insults, anybody can read the thread

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

So you are saying that me saying that analogue desks are not better than Protools or Reaper is disrespecting their sonic quality, wow you really have a low opinion of Reaper and Protools right (Don't you make money off both of these ? )

Only a matter of time before you bring up how I make my money.

Is this internet arguing 101?

Do you work out bro?

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

And yes you started to throw personal insults, anybody can read the thread

[Win Conway]

You aren't even making sense now, i asked a perfectly viable question considering that you seem to think that the sonic quality of Reaper and indeed Protools are not up with analogue consoles.
You did just use this as a basis for accusing me of disrespecting the sonic quality of analogue consoles when all i did was say they are no better than Reaper or Protools.

So my question stands, you do make money from these apps right ?

Also do i work out, is that some kind of internet thing i know nothing of ?
Sorry i don't keep up with the sayings and what not online.

[Kenny Gioia]

[Win Conway]

Not sure how an advert for a product is relevant here.
Let's recap

You think anybody who hasn't used an analogue console is mediocre (anybody can read the thread) most of the forum has never and never will use an analogue console, by extension you think most of this forum is mediocre.

You think the protocols and reapers sonic quality is not up with analogue consoles (again anybody can read the thread)

So what are all this mediocre people with the sub quality, sonic ally that is, draw giving you money for, to remain sub quality and mediocre ?

Perhaps you should think next time before disrespecting the very users you wish to sell product to, not a very good way to act on a forum just because one person disagreed with you.

And yes I shall point people to this thread so they can make up their own mind exactly what you think of them.

Goodbye now and please continue with the insults as you like, I shall be putting you and your dispicable attitude towards the hand that feeds on ignore.

[Win Conway]

Not sure how an advert for a product is relevant here.
Let's recap

You think anybody who hasn't used an analogue console is mediocre (anybody can read the thread) most of the forum has never and never will use an analogue console, by extension you think most of this forum is mediocre.

You think the protools and reapers sonic quality is not up with analogue consoles (again anybody can read the thread)

So what are all this mediocre people with the sub quality, sonically that is, daw giving you money for, to remain sub quality and mediocre ?

Perhaps you should think next time before disrespecting the very users you wish to sell product to, not a very good way to act on a forum just because one person disagreed with you.

And yes I shall point people to this thread so they can make up their own mind exactly what you think of them.

Goodbye now and please continue with the insults as you like, I shall be putting you and your dispicable attitude towards the hand that feeds on ignore.

[Lawrence]

I think you missed the joke there. That graphic reference (afaict anyway) is from the movie War Games, related to the futility of a war that nobody can actually win.

[Sound asleep]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

You aren't even making sense now, i asked a perfectly viable question considering that you seem to think that the sonic quality of Reaper and indeed Protools are not up with analogue consoles.
You did just use this as a basis for accusing me of disrespecting the sonic quality of analogue consoles when all i did was say they are no better than Reaper or Protools.

So my question stands, you do make money from these apps right ?

Also do i work out, is that some kind of internet thing i know nothing of ?
Sorry i don't keep up with the sayings and what not online.

My understanding is that analog consoles have character, and will color the sound, and will affect the sound if you push them hard.

Reaper or pro tools is cold, and transparent.

So, from that point of view, yes, reaper and pro tools cannot match a good analog desk for sound quality.

but that doesn't mean you can't make amazing sound quality music with reaper or pro tools.

I think sound quality is a kind of tricky word. because in one sense, it is something that can be scientifically measured in a resolution sort of way, and in another way, it cannot because of character.

I've never used a good analog desk, but from what I can gather from people, is that they have a nice character, and that they don't fall apart when you push them, but they even get better.

Digital DAW like reaper or pro tools will just go louder, until you hit the top, and it clips.

I think lots of people much prefer analog consoles for their character, for the qualities of their sound, the sound quality in terms of character.

In general, DAWs aren't built that way. They are built to be transparent, and you use plugins if you want to change that.

When you say sound quality, you are thinking of sound quality in a scale, from low to high, and that an analog desk is not superior to a computer DAW.

When Kenny says sound quality he thinks of it in terms of character of sound, and whether or not it is positive or negative.

So, you think saying pro tools or reaper is just as good sound quality wise to an analog console, is fair, and not insulting to analog consoles, because in a sort of resolution way, they are just as good as each other, a sort of digital mindset.

And Kenny thinks that's blasphemous, because of how great the character you can get from analog desks is, and how obviously anybody who says that something so dry and cold, and transparent as Reaper mixer, or Pro Tools mixer, could never come close to the quality of sound you get with an analog console.

This is how this particular part of your dispute seems to me.

It also seems to me, that there can be many problems in sound engineering, and many solutions, and better equipment can be some of those, but is never the only possible solution, or help, that industry professionals don't enjoy throwing their money away, and do buy expensive gear because it makes sense, either in quality/character, or in durability.

There is a ton of different gear out there, a ton of different music, and a ton of different people. A lot of good quality can be made with a large variety of stuff.

If you want the best of the best, and make world class shit, you need world class equipment. Tiger woods is not winning the masters with my golf set, and I'm not winning it with his.

But there will come a point, where in order for me to get that extra oumph, I will need better gear.

Gear is a limitation, definitely. Whether it is a treated room, or monitors, or preamps, or whatever.

Gear is a limitation. It just is. It is also not simply a solution.

I think a forum like this, and people with experience can be helpful in 2 ways for people learning audio engineering.

1. what you can do with your current gear to help you improve the things you are having trouble with.

2. the limitations of your gear, and what things getting new gear might help you with.


Fighting is not on that list.

You could fight forever this way for nothing.

There are many types of music out there, and lots of good sounding music achieved with modest gear.

but I think that if we went through really what we considered the best sounding records, in different genres, then we'd come across a lot of the same sort of gear.

It all depends on how good you want to be. If you want to be world class, and your contention is that you don't need world class equipment in order to make world class products, then you'd have to be making world class sounding mixes, on average equipment.

you'd have to be Tiger woods winning the masters with my set of clubs.

Or maybe you think you are the weak link, and the reason that you are not world class. and maybe you are, but you just need better equipment, in order to improve in finer detail.

So, there are 2 questions I would ask anyone that says equipment doesn't matter:

1. Are your mixes world class?

if the answer is yes, then show me.

if the answer is no, then how could you possibly know how much of a difference equipment makes to achieving world class results?


In everything there are 2 camps of mistakes. Those that buy gear in the hopes it will make them better, and those that believe that gear doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

But the truth is that gear is a tool. The person commands the tool. What matters is what the person commands the tools to do, but the limits of the tools, give more or less flexibility in what the commands can be.

tools are in a sense limitations. they enable, and they limit, better tools is removing limitations, adding more options, more flexibility. tools are not dials that make things better or worse. there is no golf club that will shoot balls straight for you. no guitar that will play solos on its own.

Tools matter, but they are not all that matters, and there is no single tool that is the only one you can use because all the others are too shit.

Probably, you two mostly agree on this, but you got into this cock fight, so now it's too late, you're stuck measuring dicks.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I stated that using better (or great) preamps would reduce harshness. Or to use a better term, it would never create harshness in the first place.

I'm sorry Kenny, I respect and take to heart everything you say but this sounds like you're trying to tell all Reaperites that their less than expensive Interfaces and pre-amps are somehow causing harshness. You're also doing this without any technical data or tests to substantiate it.

I'm afraid I'm with gpunk_w on this, I don't believe that lesser pre-amps cause harshness. That doesn't mean that having great pre-amps is not an advantage. It's the same with mics and it's an old story.

I would like to see some dedicated tests for all this, with the right equipment it shouldn't be that hard. I wonder if the seemingly lack of tests like this, might indicate it's not so cut and dry.

As far as the NS10's go, they've been around since the 70s and so has the well documented love & hate relationship with them. Of course no matter what you have, the acoustics of the control room is undoubtedly the main aspect. I have to agree though, the NS10s and their popularity has survided longer than any other monitors I know of, big or small.

[serr]

What's funny to me are the guys who use Reaper and other DAWs and digital gear who just swear there's no benefit to higher end gear for things like mic preamps or no benefit to high res digital (24 bit, 96k) vs 16/44.1. And I mean the ones who say NO benefit (ie. it's fantasy).

Um... you're using digital technology that not only acknowledges the existence of this 'fantasy' level of sound but fully supports it.

I've used SSL and Neve consoles before. Even the larger format live boards (Midas, Soundcraft, A&H, etc) are significantly lower quality sound than a Neve or SSL.

Live sound guys raise your hands every time you've had to assign the vocal channels to 3 aux buses to get enough headroom for the vocals to make sense again.

Push the fader up on an SSL or Neve and it just sounds full and good immediately. And that's before you even touch the eq or comp!
Well, Reaper is like that. Put nice mic preamps and AD converters in front of it and it's just like pushing up the fader on an SSL.

I didn't break the bank with vintage gear either. True Audio preamps and Apogee converters weren't really that much more in the long and short of things.

We have this full featured flexible digital technology right under our fingertips now. Why on earth do people a) want to debate it and b) cling to 30 year old early digital standards while they're doing that?

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Tod

I'm sorry Kenny, I respect and take to heart everything you say but this sounds like you're trying to tell all Reaperites that their less than expensive Interfaces and pre-amps are somehow causing harshness.

Not at all. I'm saying that if you're hearing harshness, it "could" be from cheap mic preamps or cheap microphones.

That's just been my experience. Maybe I'm doing other things with my gear that prevents this harshness that I'm not aware of but I don't run into that issue when tracking or mixing something that I've tracked.

Is it a solution? Maybe. Maybe not. I already told the OP that his stuff doesn't sound harsh to me. So maybe I'm deaf.

Anyway, the person I was arguing with is not trying to get to a higher level of understanding, he's trying to prove me wrong. For whatever reason. I don't really care.

I like arguing when learning is involved. If it's just going to be about trying to make the other person look bad than that person has some personal issues to work through.

Arguing about sonic quality is always going to be filled with opinions where nothing can be proven or unproven. I'm sure the specs in Reaper are much better than that of a classic Neve. Yet you can't sell Reaper for 100k. Oh well.

It's a world full of opinions. You read them all and you try to figure out what works best for you.

IMHO - If you're obsessed with the gear you use, you're either a musical genius who doesn't need to perfect your craft or you're like the rest of us, wasting time when you should be working on your craft.

All the best.

kenny

[karbomusic]

I'm sorry Kenny, I respect and take to heart everything you say but this sounds like you're trying to tell all Reaperites that their less than expensive Interfaces and pre-amps are somehow causing harshness.

I didn't take it that way, its really easy to notice a nice pre not doing that. Doesn't mean everybody has to run out and get one doesn't mean harsh automatically means bad pre. It does mean that if you have a mic and an OK pre and it keeps sounding harsh no matter what you do, the preamp is a smart place to look because they are well known for sounding bad when using transformers the size of a pea and so on, its simple physics really. There should be more than enough documentation out there on this.

A cheap pre simply can't provide the power needed for a highly dynamic signal, it'll work but it won't shine when more is demanded out of it and demands are even higher in home studios IMHO.

[Jae.Thomas]

I find my equator D5's help a lot with finding harshness.

[James HE]

THe reality here is that yes, you can make great recordings with high or low-end gear. It really just depends on where / what you work on and budget as far as the quality of gear that you need.

Hobbyist don't need $1000 pre amps, but if you can afford it, go right ahead. If you are an emerging artist, it really doesn't matter all that much, the main goal is to be heard. Any straight wire with gain and a decent sense of how to make a good mix is all you really need. (this is no excuse to not hone your craft though! don't be a slouch.)

Professionals should invest in high end gear when they can, and get the stuff they like and the stuff that lets them work efficiently. working 8-14 hours a day on high end gear is probably a lot better for your health / sanity than low end crap that you have to fight all damn day.

*I'm not a "pro" and I have some really crappy gear. I use, (almost exclusively) modded Art MP's. I think they sound great! BUT I have to fight noise, always, and that can really dampen the creative juices.

[beatbybit]

when you mention NS-10, you should add what amplifier..

just my 2bits.

[Kenny Gioia]

Bryston 4B

Anything less is "mediocre".

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

But really, they sound better over powered and I have a sub-woofer as well.

To clarify why I recommend NS10s:

They have no Bass and they are not very bright or pretty. So your focus is in the mids and upper mids.

Guess where most of your tracks fight and most systems are similar. The mid-range.

That's where the focus should be to get a nice upgront sound where everything fits together.

Midrange is:

Click of the Kick Drum
Snare drum
Clarity in the Bass guitar
Guitars
Piano
Vocals

That's kind of important. No?

So here's a magnifying glass that requires you to make the mid-range work. The audience might have a prettier system but if you can get the mid-range to work on these speakers, it will work on all speakers.

The high end and the low end is a crap shoot as every system will vary. But if you can get the mid-range right, you're gold.

[beatbybit]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

The high end and the low end is a crap shoot as every system will vary. But if you can get the mid-range right, you're gold.

NS10 or not - i totally agree with this.

btw. have you ever heard/seen the modified NS10, where the white speaker had a few cm "long" extender ring?

[Reno.thestraws]

A good way for avoiding Harshness is to Clean your track before even start mixing. It's almost impossible to record something completly clear (even in sampled from VSTi). In a great room, with great mics and preamp, you always get some resonance, hiss, noise,...

In a poor room, with cheap preamp and mike it's the same, but it's just more obvious (but not impossibile to deal with)

Check out this vid:

http://youtu.be/Ae0glsKZ_6s


I took 4 tracks

- Gtr 1 is a real amp recording with a classic 57 in a SUMMIT 2ba-221 preamp.

I use reaEQ to cut some resonnance and "awful spots". Listen carefully when I bypass-unbypass the eq, you'll notice some NOISES appearing when bypassed. On ONE track it's not so annoying but when you're mixing 30 tracks with each an awful spot, your mix start to be painful

-Strings are VSTi from a well known compagny

Same, process, I just filter the low end and the high end.

Listen carefully the the high end when I bypass the reaEQ. Do you notice that SHSSSSSSS sound appearing? Did you notice it before? Again, not a big deal on one track, but it's NOISE and this noise is summed with the rest of your tracks

- Gtr 2 is a schecter + guitar amp sim (convolution for cab)

Same as guitar 1, do you notice that Painful noise appearing when I bypass reaEQ?

- Voice is recorded in a decent room with a SM7B in a SUMMIT 2ba-221 preamp (fireface UCX converter). It's not 10000$ signal path but it's not so bad

Listen carefully, you'll notice that there are spot that sound painful.



So. Avoid noise at recording (gain staging, mic placement and instrument tweaking)

and before start mixing, clean up your tracks!

If you're using cheap gear, you'll probably need more time and a little more work to get your sound clean, but you can achieve same results

High end gear is not the only way to achieve great results but it allow to save time, work faster and more relaxed (which is important for professionnal guys like KENNY, because time is money and it make that job 8 hours a day)