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Old 12-31-2016, 12:54 AM   #1
Dannii
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Default ReaVerb, Valhalla, Waves, VoS 3D Ambisonic FX

After quite some trial and error with various techniques to arrive at a genuine Ambisonic B Format reverb using Valhalla reverbs, I finally put something together that works.

This track template can be used in Ambisonic mixes to achieve genuine, three dimensional, B Format reverb with width, height and depth input and output. If you solo the reverb, you'll hear all your directional and panning cues in the reverb mix.

I've used a bunch of channel mixing techniques, M/S decode and encode and level correcting JS plugins (all stock REAPER plugins) in combination with three instances of (in this first template), Valhalla Vintage Verb. Every parameter for adjusting the reverb is linked so all that is necessary is to adjust the first instance of VVV and the other two will follow. This includes selecting presets too.

The track template uses 16 audio channels. Channels 1-4 are the B Format input and output, channels 5-8 are X (front/back) reverb, channels 9-12 are Y (left/right) reverb and channels 13-16 are Z (up/down) reverb. EDIT - Those channel arrangements are for the older FuMa format. Blue Ripple Sound have just released their new SN3D updates which have the channel arrangements as WYZX. This is directly compatible with YouTube 360 and Facebook VR. These track templates will work with both arrangements without modification. Channels 5-16 are mixed internally in the track routing matrix and output back to 1-4. Those channels won't output to your mix so if you have other channels in the audio chain, it won't interfere with them. I am using this track template in third order Ambisonic mixes which have 16 channels of audio so I designed this template to work in that environment too.
Even though this template processes first order Ambisonics (channels WXYZ for FuMa or WYZX for SN3D), it is still very effective when used in higher order mixes. It isn't vital to have the reverb in higher order format to still be very effective.

All you need to do is send any B Format sends to channels 1-4 and the track will add reverb and output back to 1-4. If you are mixing in higher order Ambisonics, just send the first four channels to this track.

There's no reason you couldn't substitute any other stereo in/stereo out FX for the three instances of Valhalla Vintage Verb here to achieve genuine B Format FX. You'll need to set the channel i/o pins on each instance of your replacement FX the same way I have them set in the reverbs and you'll need to manually link each parameter from the second and third instance back to the first one if you want to have master control but it can be done reasonably easily.

Download ReaVerb Ambisonic track template here. Thanks lamacchiacosta for creating this.
This link contains important information about setting up i/o pin configurations for those who want to substitute other stereo plugin FX for Ambisonic use.

Download the Valhalla Vintage Verb Ambisonic track template here.

Download the Valhalla Room Ambisonic track template here.

Download the Valhalla Shimmer Ambisonic track template here.

Download the Waves Trueverb Ambisonic track template here.

Download the Variety of Sound NastyDLA MK2 Ambisonic track template here.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:21 AM   #2
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Valhalla Room template added to first post.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:46 AM   #3
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Valhalla Shimmer template added to first post.
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Old 01-02-2017, 02:36 AM   #4
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I made up another one of these using VoS NastyDLA Mk2 and should have the track template uploaded over the next couple of days. As with the others, all knobs and controls are linked over the three instances for easy control.

The secret to getting a nice, wide spread is to use FX that have outputs that vary their calculations in such a way that no two instances produce an identical output.
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Old 01-04-2017, 08:08 AM   #5
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Awesome, ReaDave. Thank you for the share!
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:42 PM   #6
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Good grief Dave. Lots to learn from this. I know far too little and it's too cool for that.

Can you recommend a resource to learn about Ambisonics and how to use it ? I'm wondering how to monitor this effectively.
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Old 01-04-2017, 03:54 PM   #7
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Right up airon's alley, I think, this vid.
Atleast I know more than yesterday, don't wait up, gotta learn this in my phase.
Thanks ReaDave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzLxmEIYBl4
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:41 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvin J. View Post
Awesome, ReaDave. Thank you for the share!
You're welcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Good grief Dave. Lots to learn from this. I know far too little and it's too cool for that.

Can you recommend a resource to learn about Ambisonics and how to use it ? I'm wondering how to monitor this effectively.
Along with the video SmajjL has posted, there's some really good information on Ambisonic format on the Blue Ripple Sound website. They strongly support REAPER and they provide some very useful core tools for full, third order Ambisonics for free. Their paid stuff is quite expensive but well worth the investment. I've purchased their Decoding and Upmixing packs and use them on all my REAPER projects now (my studio monitoring is now a 3D Ambisonic cube array of eight Auratone 5c cubes and a sub).

Here's some links to the info on the Blue Ripple site...
Technical notes on the basics of Ambisonics
3D Mixing FAQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmajjL View Post
Right up airon's alley, I think, this vid.
Atleast I know more than yesterday, don't wait up, gotta learn this in my phase.
Thanks ReaDave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzLxmEIYBl4
I haven't downloaded that one yet but I'm pretty sure I watched it a few months back. If it is the same one I watched, it has some very useful info in it.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:53 PM   #9
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This is amazing, thanks Dave. I've been thinking about mixing in Ambisonics since I saw your post a few weeks ago about it and the possibility to downmix to different formats but then, the realisation: clunk. It will need a 3D Reverb.

And here it is - looking forward to checking it out!

Cheers,
Jennifer
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endorka View Post
This is amazing, thanks Dave. I've been thinking about mixing in Ambisonics since I saw your post a few weeks ago about it and the possibility to downmix to different formats but then, the realisation: clunk. It will need a 3D Reverb.

And here it is - looking forward to checking it out!

Cheers,
Jennifer
Great to hear you're keen to dig in and give Ambisonics a go Jen. Be warned though, it gets addictive pretty quickly!!
Make sure you check out the Blue Ripple plugins. They are pretty much the Rolls Royce for Ambisonic work. The Core library is free. The others are not cheap but nor are the results.... And no, I'm not endorsed by Blue Ripple. I'm just a very happy customer.

I'll be keen to hear how you go.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:07 AM   #11
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Thanks Dave, yes indeed I can see that it could become very addictive. I've been really wanting to get into surround mixes for some time but put it off as you have to do separate 5.1 and stereo mixes, the risk being that 5.1 mixes become an expensive / addictive / obsessive diversion with a niche audience. When you mentioned the ability to downmix to these from a single ambisonic mix, it changed everything :-)

My plan is to try it on my next piece of music, which is almost finished. My studio monitors are only stereo, but we have a Bose 5.1 home theatre system I could get a rough idea of the mixes from, and there's always the binaural option through headphones for mixing. This seemed quite effective on the ATK tutorial vids. Hopefully doable if I keep the mixes simple at first.

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Old 03-23-2017, 08:41 AM   #12
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Thank you ReaDave
This is very interesting to me since I'm into Ambisonics now again.
Is it ok to replace valhalla reverbs with ReaVerb? I'm trying to do the same template but using ReaVerb and some impulses. I'm trying for example Samplicity M7 Wave impulses. There are others Samplicity M7 Wave Quad files, but I think that is not good for this template, because Reaverbs here should be like 3 stereo reverbs like the Valhallas I suppose.
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Old 03-23-2017, 06:48 PM   #13
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Here are some excellent tutorials by Trond Lossius using the ATK js plugins for Reaper.

On that subject, ReaDave, have you tried switching FUMA B-format to A-format and back using the ATK converter? You can get an appropriate result with just 2 2-channel reverbs that way.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:11 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endorka View Post
Thanks Dave, yes indeed I can see that it could become very addictive. I've been really wanting to get into surround mixes for some time but put it off as you have to do separate 5.1 and stereo mixes, the risk being that 5.1 mixes become an expensive / addictive / obsessive diversion with a niche audience. When you mentioned the ability to downmix to these from a single ambisonic mix, it changed everything :-)

My plan is to try it on my next piece of music, which is almost finished. My studio monitors are only stereo, but we have a Bose 5.1 home theatre system I could get a rough idea of the mixes from, and there's always the binaural option through headphones for mixing. This seemed quite effective on the ATK tutorial vids. Hopefully doable if I keep the mixes simple at first.

Cheers,
Jennifer
Don't forget to check out the Blue Ripple Sound O3A Core package. It is free and has some very high quality tools to get you started in Ambisonic mixing in third order quality. This is a pretty big step up from first order Ambisonics and well worth delving into.

http://www.blueripplesound.com/products/o3a-core-vst

Quote:
Originally Posted by heda View Post
Thank you ReaDave
This is very interesting to me since I'm into Ambisonics now again.
Is it ok to replace valhalla reverbs with ReaVerb? I'm trying to do the same template but using ReaVerb and some impulses. I'm trying for example Samplicity M7 Wave impulses. There are others Samplicity M7 Wave Quad files, but I think that is not good for this template, because Reaverbs here should be like 3 stereo reverbs like the Valhallas I suppose.
There's no reason not to experiment with different reverbs. I have actually used ReaVerb in this template myself and it works well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plush2 View Post
Here are some excellent tutorials by Trond Lossius using the ATK js plugins for Reaper.

On that subject, ReaDave, have you tried switching FUMA B-format to A-format and back using the ATK converter? You can get an appropriate result with just 2 2-channel reverbs that way.
That is something I haven't thought of. Good idea. I'll have a play around and see how it sounds. One less instance of a given reverb VST is always good CPU wise.
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:08 AM   #15
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Hi ReaDave,

I'm afraid this is a totally newbie post (my first post here on the forum)
I'm very interested in working with ambisonics in Reaper, but I have very little experience of the program.

I downloaded your template for Valhalla Room and while it sounded very interesting, I'm not sure if I have configured things properly (I tried with a test file and the positioning wasn't right with the reverb).

I've been dragging an ambisonic file (AmbiX from a Zoom H2.n) into Reaper and in the Routing tab, sending it to 'VVV B format' Do I need to set up VVV B format to 'recieve' back to the ambisonic file too ? Also, do I need something like the ATK binaural decoder (I'm listening in stereo, for headphones playback) ?

Again, apologies if these are really simple things, any info would be appreciated
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Old 05-10-2017, 01:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Igneous View Post
Hi ReaDave,

I'm afraid this is a totally newbie post (my first post here on the forum)
I'm very interested in working with ambisonics in Reaper, but I have very little experience of the program.

I downloaded your template for Valhalla Room and while it sounded very interesting, I'm not sure if I have configured things properly (I tried with a test file and the positioning wasn't right with the reverb).

I've been dragging an ambisonic file (AmbiX from a Zoom H2.n) into Reaper and in the Routing tab, sending it to 'VVV B format' Do I need to set up VVV B format to 'recieve' back to the ambisonic file too ? Also, do I need something like the ATK binaural decoder (I'm listening in stereo, for headphones playback) ?

Again, apologies if these are really simple things, any info would be appreciated
Apologies for the delay replying to you Igneous. I haven't had much time online here recently.

Interesting that the H2n records in Ambisonic format. I didn't know they were capable of that. I have a H4n but it doesn't have Ambisonic capability.

Regarding my Valhalla reverb setup, you will need to have an Ambisonic decoder of some description on your master for any monitoring via speakers or headphones. The ATK decoders should work fine as will the Blue Ripple Sound core decoders (which are free). Make sure whatever decoder you use matches the particular Ambisonic format you are working with (the two most common formats are FuMa which is older and SN3D which is compatible with YouTube and Facebook VR).

You only need to set up a send from your Ambisonic track to the reverb track. No need for a return the other way. Make sure your send sends four channels though and not just two.

Hopefully this helps get you up and running.

Again, apologies for my delayed response.
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:34 AM   #17
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Hi 'ReaDave'

Cheers for your reply. I've been able to set this up fine with a stereo source (set to route as 4 channels) and it works very well. I don't seem to get similiar results (regarding positioning) when I use a ambisonic source. It's not a big deal though, as the effect using a stereo source is still very interesting. Thanks !
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Old 05-30-2017, 12:54 PM   #18
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Might be interesting for Ambisonics fans:
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Old 05-31-2017, 10:23 PM   #19
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Awesome! Thank you for sharing!
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:41 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
After quite some trial and error with various techniques to arrive at a genuine Ambisonic B Format reverb using Valhalla reverbs, I finally put something together that works.
This sound amazing! Exactly what I'm after. I'm having trouble using it, though. I 'insert track from template' and nothing happens. I'm new to Reaper, am I missing something?

Thanks
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:02 PM   #21
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This sound amazing! Exactly what I'm after. I'm having trouble using it, though. I 'insert track from template' and nothing happens. I'm new to Reaper, am I missing something?

Thanks
Welcome aboard Vincent.

This track template works as an FX return channel. You'll need to send it a signal from your source channels and set up the send with multichannel source (four channels) assuming your sources are Ambisonic.
Are you familiar with setting up sends in REAPER yet?
I'm posting this from my phone so I can't post screen shots from REAPER.
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Welcome aboard Vincent.
Hi Dave, thanks!!

I'm familiar enough with tracks and sends etc. Watched 7 hours of tutorials.. :/

But when I say nothing happens I mean nothing. The track doesn't show up at all.




(In other matters, may I point your attention to another question I posed? Getting no responses as yet! https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=194834)
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:25 PM   #23
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oh scrap that, it is working! I'll have a fiddle tomorrow.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:25 PM   #24
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oh scrap that, it is working! I'll have a fiddle tomorrow.
Great to hear you have it working.

I did read your question in your other post but my primary use for Ambisonics is for 3D music mixing rather than VR. As such, I haven't played about with cameras and object tracking so there's probably not a lot I could offer in that regard.
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Old 09-08-2017, 12:52 PM   #25
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Just a quick update here. I was working on my new album during the week and was experimenting with a Waves TrueVerb version of this template and during that process, I made a few tweaks. These tweaks give better separation and depth to the whole effect. I applied the same tweaks to the Valhalla templates with even better results. Same with the VoS Nasty DLA MkII template I set up.

I'll upload the updated templates over the next couple of days.

I'm planning to put together a template for ReaVerb too. That would give a template that uses totally free plugins.
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Old 12-20-2017, 08:01 AM   #26
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Waves Trueverb and Variety of Sound NastyDLA MK2 track templates have now been added along with the updated Valhalla templates. See my FIRST POST for downloads and details.
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Old 12-23-2017, 11:36 AM   #27
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To continue the conversation we were having on the Post production panning thread I agree that the technically true ambisonic reverbs can be underwhelming. As with all things in sound design there is the question of reality verses expectation. A good stereo reverb has a long pedigree of meeting the expectation of how a room sounds even though it is usually a long ways from the reality of how a room sounds. I think the desired illusion of a really immersive reverberant signal over 2 or 5.1 speakers leads to some wild and creative techniques that you are leveraging with your pre-set. Ultimately this is good because ambisonics has come to maturity in an almost exclusively academic setting where the reality is almost always the goal.

I used the same technique for decode that you are using when I created an ambisonic web-player in the early days of the web audio api. I was told that although it's not completely accurate from a mathematical perspective it was inspiring to see it done. As non-academics I think inspiring (and entertaining) is what we aim to do.

Incidentally I have also had good results with a single stereo reverb run through the ATK superstereo and then pushed/focused into the section of the sound field where I want it. This way I can paint different reverberant sounds to different regions of the sphere.
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Old 12-25-2017, 06:40 AM   #28
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Expectation versus realism is the reason stereo reverbs still work well in LRLsRs space.

Since I mainly mixed dialogue, I used one instant of stereo reverb fed to LR and LsRs, but only a fraction to those back speakers.
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Old 12-25-2017, 01:07 PM   #29
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Have any of you tried the new Reverb 4 from Toneboosters? It does 6 channel (5.1) and to my ear sounds quite good. At 30 Euro it's a pretty good deal too.

I'm going to do a little digging to find out what it does with the C and LFE channels, it seems from my initial usage of it on first order ambisonic signal that it must treat all input signals as discrete and non-unique assuming an ITU L,R,C,LFE,Ls,Rs channel order.
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:11 AM   #30
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this is awesome

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Old 07-09-2018, 04:38 PM   #31
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Hey Dave, in case you missed it: https://www.kvraudio.com/news/ssa-pl...g-plugin-41876
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:35 PM   #32
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Thanks for the thumbs up on this.
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Old 08-15-2018, 08:50 PM   #33
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@OP Instead of going through all this trouble, you can just use


ambifreeverb2 for 1oa, and https://www.brucewiggins.co.uk/?page_id=78

FdnReverb & from the IEM suite for 7oA (works with surround & ambisonics)

This is all documented here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...x1TirK/pubhtml

===

Quote:
Originally Posted by endorka View Post
I've been really wanting to get into surround mixes for some time but put it off as you have to do separate 5.1 and stereo mixes, the risk being that 5.1 mixes become an expensive / addictive / obsessive diversion with a niche audience. When you mentioned the ability to downmix to these from a single ambisonic mix, it changed everything :-)
Cheers,
Jennifer

You should NEVER have to do separate 5.1 and stereo mixes, UNLESS:
- you're doing dodgy things in 5.1 which won't translate well to stereo (like delays).
- You don't have a 5.1>2 downmixer. I have all the downmixers you want here https://github.com/junh1024/Reaper-Surround#downmixers if you don't mind lack of DPL2.


I've written a guide to mixing in surround here https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...KhqmELzHrt/pub

You could ALREADY downmix 2ch from 5.1. When you work in ambisonics, targeting 5.1 & 2ch, your mixes WILL sound worse, especially on your first few projects. In fact, when you generate stereo mixes from ambisonics, it guarantees you it will sound more same as surround, you will have less control and may sound worse than if you'd made a 5.1 initially, dependant on decoder.

Ambisonics is not detriment-free. When mixing for 5.1:
*Surrounds are overloaded with ITU 5.1 decoding
*You can never have a truly discrete center with 3oa since the resolution is 45*, but 5.1 ITU LCR is 30*
*A few other ones in https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...h.1jqhkjdh4bhw


Ambisonics gives you blank 3D canvas that you THINK you can place sounds anywhere, and will fold down to any speakers. You can place sounds anywhere, but we neither have speakers, nor ears everywhere. Ambisonics BLINDS you from real world human & speaker effects. Read these:

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?...4902&print=yes
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?...4903&print=yes

It quotes:
Quote:
"Instruments panned partway between front and surround channels ... are subject to image instability and sounding split in two spectrally, so this is not generally a good position to use for primary sources."
This applies to ambisonics too.

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Old 08-15-2018, 10:46 PM   #34
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Junh, those are certainly useful tools, especially the Room Encoder in the IEM suite which I use often.

The templates I've put together here though are designed so we can use any chosen plugin in true B-format. The Valhalla reverbs are my default general purpose and special effect reverbs and are right up there with the best available.

The only time consuming part is the initial configuration of the parameter linking which only needs to be done once. The templates I have made available here are already set up. All that is needed is to insert track from template and it is ready to go.
To tweak the FX, just open the first instance and all the others are already linked.
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Old 03-06-2019, 03:17 AM   #35
lamacchiacosta
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Hi guys,
has anyone tried to replace those plugins with something else?
I am trying to replace it with ReaVerb (the plugin I would like to use) and AUReverb2 (to test). On both tracks I don't have any reverb signal going out, this means I am doing the same mistake twice, but I cannot find what is it.
I've attached the session to see if anyone is willing to help.
For the sake of file weight, I removed the audio file on the audio track and the IR in the ReaVerb.
Many thanks.
Attached Files
File Type: rpp mono_stereo to ambisonics - no output.RPP (33.0 KB, 524 views)
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Old 03-06-2019, 04:47 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamacchiacosta View Post
Hi guys,
has anyone tried to replace those plugins with something else?
I am trying to replace it with ReaVerb (the plugin I would like to use) and AUReverb2 (to test). On both tracks I don't have any reverb signal going out, this means I am doing the same mistake twice, but I cannot find what is it.
I've attached the session to see if anyone is willing to help.
For the sake of file weight, I removed the audio file on the audio track and the IR in the ReaVerb.
Many thanks.
As mentioned in private message, I don't have access right now to my PC because I'm rennovating my studio. However, I'd almost put money on the problem being the plugin i/o pin settings. They've probably reset to 1&2 for in and out on all replaced plugins.

What I would suggest is to download the VoS NastyDLA MKII plugin and load up the track template with that in it from my first post. Then, add your ReaVerb template next to the delay one and compare the i/o pin settings and adjust to match. They are the same for all track templates I've uploaded.

The NastyDLA MKII is actually one of my favourite delay plugins and it is free. Grab it here....
https://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/downloads/

Hopefully this will get you going.
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:19 AM   #37
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Hi ReaDave,
thanks for your help. I got your answer, hence my public request, in the hope to find someone else to help me reassign the Ins and the Outs.
They are indeed reset to 1&2 and I was hoping for someone to get my session and reassign or suggesting the I/O settings.
I don't own a Windows machine and cannot load them on my Mac, nor I am willing to invest on a Waves plug-in I won't ever use.
:-)
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:36 AM   #38
Dannii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamacchiacosta View Post
Hi ReaDave,
thanks for your help. I got your answer, hence my public request, in the hope to find someone else to help me reassign the Ins and the Outs.
They are indeed reset to 1&2 and I was hoping for someone to get my session and reassign or suggesting the I/O settings.
I don't own a Windows machine and cannot load them on my Mac, nor I am willing to invest on a Waves plug-in I won't ever use.
:-)
Ah. Didn't know about you being on Mac. What you could do then is to download the demo version of one of the Valhalla reverbs I've used and have a look at that pin configuration. There's nothing to install with those so no system setting changes and you can just delete the plugin from your computer if you don't want it later on.
Alternatively, I'll have my studio back up and operational next week if you want to wait for me to check the plugin pin configurations for you.
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:27 PM   #39
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Silly me. For some reasons I didn't see the MacOS version of the Valhalla plugins, so I now downloaded the VintageVerb to check them out.

For future references when a plugin is replaced and the I/O reset, we need to restore the following connections to the three reverbs:

1 - In 5/6 - Out 5/6
2 - In 9/11 - Out 9/11
3 - In 13/16 - Out 13/16

Attached you can find a screenshot do double check the connections.

For the ones interested in using ReaVerb, attached you can find also a track template for it.

On a Mac the path to install the Track Template is:

Library - Application Support - REAPER - TrackTemplates

A massive thanks to ReaDave for the big support.
Attached Images
File Type: png I_O 01.png (44.2 KB, 709 views)
File Type: png I_O 02.png (44.2 KB, 602 views)
File Type: png I_O 03.png (44.2 KB, 580 views)
Attached Files
File Type: zip ReaVerbTrackTemplate.zip (2.3 KB, 552 views)

Last edited by lamacchiacosta; 03-13-2019 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:35 PM   #40
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Glad you got it sorted lamacchiacosta. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the Valhalla reverb now that you have the demo version. Valhalla are still my favourite reverbs after many years of using them. Vintage Verb is great for character reverb and Room is great for natural spaces.
I have a lot of impulse recordings on my system but I hardly touch them since running Valhalla.

Thanks too for uploading your ReaVerb track template. I've added that to the thread title and put a link in my first post to your post with your download. Saves me the work of creating all the parameter links.
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