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Old 09-18-2015, 09:59 AM   #41
ivansc
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If you have four slots Memtest should see and test them all, even if Winows 3 bit cant use them all.

Wish I had a spare power supply to send you just so we could eliminate that as a possibility.
When I was refurbing and donating computers I always had a TON of bits lying around, but these days I can actually see the carpet in my studio again!
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:58 AM   #42
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If you haven't already, power up, keep tapping F8 until you get the safe menu screen, select safe mode with networking, go to the web page thats causing you problems and see if it reboots. If not, then you know its a driver or plugin that is loaded when in your 'normal' user mode.
Then create a new user, and check if that user has the same problem.
Also install a different broweser and see if that has the same problem.
Sounds very much like a wayward programme to me.
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Old 09-18-2015, 11:32 AM   #43
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Has a HD diagnostic been run?

Usually when I see random bluescreens with different causes its the HD going bad.

Memory errors are much are easier to diagnose by just removing all but 1 mem stick and seeing if the issue persists then adding another stick and so on.
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Old 09-18-2015, 01:23 PM   #44
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I would prioritize gsmartcontrol as it will provide essential information on drives health. It's not complicated at all.

You can get the application here:
http://gsmartcontrol.sourceforge.net....php/Downloads

For a portable installation, just download the zipped package for Windows.

Then open gsmartcontrol, double-click on a drive, maximize the pop-up window and take 3 screenshots of these tabs: Attributes, Error Log and Self-test Logs. If there are no recent self-tests registered on a particular drive, you can take the screenshot after you run a short self-test, as soon as it completes. Do this for each of your drives. That's it.

Next would be a CPU/RAM stress test.
Get Prime95 here:
http://www.mersenne.org/download/

Get HWmonitor here (haven't used this tool much but it seems to do the job):
http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html
(get the zip file if you want it portable)

Launch HWmonitor and note the temperatures when the CPU is idle. Mainly what's interesting is CPU, RAM and GPU temperatures. Unless you notice anything else that is getting too high (i.e. 80C or more).
Then run Prime95 (haven't used this tool for a while so I can't comment on how to set it up, but I think you can just click through it). Launch a multicore test and watch the temperatures skyrocket. If cooling conditions are really bad (and your CPU doesn't throttle), then computer might abruptly shut down. So it's best to have as few applications open as possible and to not perform anything with the disk. Normally, temperatures will continue to rise for a while and then stabilize. At this point note the values. If after about 5 minutes you saw no crash, note the values and quit the test. Best to not run it for ages because heat is dangerous to electronics.

Next would be GPU test:
http://www.geeks3d.com/20140304/gput...-gpu-database/
After you unzip the file, open the "gputestgui" or whatever it is called. Just run a couple of tests and while they are running, take notice of peak temperatures with hwmonitor.

Basically our purpose is to determine whether any of these tests make your computer crash as well as get an idea of the thermal situation.

You can send karbo's share to me :-)
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Old 09-18-2015, 01:50 PM   #45
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And I would still go for a limited memtest. Because these problems do resemble RAM fault. It is a little more complicated though, since you will need to prepare a separate bootable drive or CD/DVD. So we can skip it for now and go back to it later if other fixes won't work.

Here are instructions on how to perform a memtest:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/w...f-ecc7b7ff6461

Last edited by innuendo; 09-18-2015 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 09-18-2015, 02:38 PM   #46
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BTW here are some interesting cases where win32k.sys may cause similar memory corruption:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2908190
(win7)

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/971251
(win2003)

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/872797
(winXP/2003)

kb2908190 is particularly interesting since it is related to drawing fonts. Alas this is for Win7 and not XP.

I wonder if you have the crash when you copy an image to clipboard? That would confirm you have the issue described in kb872797.
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Old 09-18-2015, 11:03 PM   #47
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I would take the computer to any computer repair shop and hook it up to another PSU. If the problem persists and the memtest and HDD tests show nothing I would clean reinstall the OS and start over. If it still persists I would just build a new machine with Win10 and never look back.
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Old 09-18-2015, 11:44 PM   #48
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Max is in Norwich, UK.

Unlikely that he will find a PC repair shop that will suggest anything other than spending lot of money that he doesnt have. Cheaper to just replace the PSU - even if he winds up building another computer the PSU will still be needed eventually.

FWIW Norwich is about an hour and a half from me.
Getting tempted to offer to make a house call....
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Old 09-19-2015, 01:22 AM   #49
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there is a guy in St Benedicts street who is/was pretty helpful .. or used to be
obviously, anyone is going to charge for time
meet you in the Belgian Monk
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Old 09-19-2015, 02:06 AM   #50
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I'd say it's the PSU or maybe a virus. My old silverstone PSU crapped out just like that. Got myself a new fanless one.
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Old 09-23-2015, 03:55 PM   #51
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Hi all

I'm back with some updates....

Prime95: I have run all 3 tests now. I did around 21 hours of Blend, 9 hours of Small FFT and 9 hours of Large FFT. All tests completed without errors or problems.

GSmartControl: I have run all 3 hard drives through all 3 tests. No problems reported.

Still need to run Memtest and some GPU stress tests. Will update you guys when I have.

I've had some new problems today and thought I'd share those in case they cast any new light onto the situation. Unfortunately though, these new problems coupled with the old ones did send me into a bit of a meltdown and as such everything is quite hazy and unclear in terms of what happened in what order. Sorry for being a bit useless there.

Problem one was as Windows was loading. It would come up with a blue screen which said: "Server Initialization failed with an error....." It then gave error code: 0XC00700C1.

After a few reboots two further problems occurred. Firstly the AVG "Computer Protected" bit would not work/load. It said "Computer Component is not active". There was an option to fix it, but every time I tried that it would not work and would just say "could not finish automatic repair".

Secondly, my graphics card driver stopped working and needed a full re-installation. Windows just loaded one time and it was back to the basic VGA driver.

Whether all of this is directly part of the original problem or perhaps has come about by some of the stuff I've been doing to try and diagnose/fix the problem, I can't be sure. But I thought I'd share it in case it is useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
If you have four slots Memtest should see and test them all, even if Winows 3 bit cant use them all.
That's handy. I'll definitely test all four sticks at once then when I run Memtest. Thanks for the info. While on the subject of Memtest, is 24 hours sufficient?

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Originally Posted by keys View Post
If you haven't already, power up, keep tapping F8 until you get the safe menu screen, select safe mode with networking, go to the web page thats causing you problems and see if it reboots. If not, then you know its a driver or plugin that is loaded when in your 'normal' user mode.
Then create a new user, and check if that user has the same problem.
Also install a different broweser and see if that has the same problem.
Sounds very much like a wayward programme to me.
Keys.
Good ideas which I've now tried. In Safe Mode, the website still crashes the PC and forces a reboot. I have not tried a different user yet. Would you still suggest I do? As for other browsers, I have an old copy of Opera installed and the webpage was fine in that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss View Post
Has a HD diagnostic been run?
I've run the tests in GSmartControl and have also error scanned in HDTune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by innuendo View Post
Launch HWmonitor and note the temperatures when the CPU is idle. Mainly what's interesting is CPU, RAM and GPU temperatures. Unless you notice anything else that is getting too high (i.e. 80C or more).
Then run Prime95 (haven't used this tool for a while so I can't comment on how to set it up, but I think you can just click through it). Launch a multicore test and watch the temperatures skyrocket. If cooling conditions are really bad (and your CPU doesn't throttle), then computer might abruptly shut down. So it's best to have as few applications open as possible and to not perform anything with the disk. Normally, temperatures will continue to rise for a while and then stabilize. At this point note the values. If after about 5 minutes you saw no crash, note the values and quit the test. Best to not run it for ages because heat is dangerous to electronics.
Hmmm... I forgot that last bit when I ran the tests! Nevertheless, temps seemed ok. Idling is fine. At their very hottest, the CPU reached 80 degrees (for one of the cores, the other were a bit less). The GPU reached 49 degrees. I'm not sure if it gives a temp for the RAM. Couldn't see one. Hard drives ranged form 35 to 40.

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Originally Posted by innuendo View Post
Next would be GPU test
I'll try to get that done tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by innuendo View Post
You can send karbo's share to me :-)
Just kidding. We're here for fun and helping people is fun. Money would spoil it.
Thanks - I really do appreciate it.

Thanks also for those links, I'll have a read of those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
FWIW Norwich is about an hour and a half from me.
Getting tempted to offer to make a house call....
Hahaha - small world!

Quote:
Originally Posted by misc100 View Post
there is a guy in St Benedicts street who is/was pretty helpful .. or used to be
obviously, anyone is going to charge for time
meet you in the Belgian Monk
I'm not sure if they are still there or not. I actually live out in the sticks now and don't make it into Norwich often. They built my first PC for me way back when....!

As for the Belgian Monk, I went there for the first time just a couple of weeks ago. Most uncanny that you should mention it!


Right, off to bed and see what the morrow brings.

Thanks to all.

(PS - and lesson learnt today to make notes as things happen/as I do things so that is does not get as hazy and foncused as it has done today)
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Old 09-23-2015, 04:37 PM   #52
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This still resembles a failing HDD or a faulty RAM. And you still haven't posted any SMART info... Which is crucial. These HDD self-tests are useful only in case they fail, because then there is no question about the urgency to replace the drive. In case they pass, they are meaningless. What is meaningful in any case is SMART data. Please refer to this:
Quote:
open gsmartcontrol, double-click on a drive, maximize the pop-up window and take 3 screenshots of these tabs: Attributes, Error Log and Self-test Logs. If there are no recent self-tests registered on a particular drive, you can take the screenshot after you run a short self-test, as soon as it completes. Do this for each of your drives. That's it.
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Old 09-23-2015, 04:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
Prime95: I have run all 3 tests now. I did around 21 hours of Blend, 9 hours of Small FFT and 9 hours of Large FFT. All tests completed without errors or problems.
Gosh, you are taking this to the extreme! 23 hours of punishing stress test???!!! OMG. Do you hate your computer?

If on the peak you see 80C, then the temperatures are OK.
Reg. length of memtest, 24 hours should be enough. Usually you will see errors within minutes or hours when the RAM is really bad.
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Old 09-23-2015, 04:46 PM   #54
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Seems like his Prime95 tests would have ruled out the RAM?

I use Hard Disk Sentinel, I have a family license. The trial version gives you all the same info though.

Because you not only need to know the SMART values:


You have to know which values are predictive and how to weight them:


Temp isn't so important but it's nice to have a history:
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Old 09-23-2015, 04:51 PM   #55
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Seems like Prime95 would rule out the RAM?
Frankly I don't know whether it verifies data integrity. I use it exclusively to generate load. For memtest, I use memtest...
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Old 09-23-2015, 05:04 PM   #56
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Hmm...

"By selecting 2048-4096 kB and unchecking the "Run FFTs in-place" checkbox, providing the maximum amount of RAM free in the system, the program tests the memory and the chipset."

"This is because Prime95 is designed to subject the CPU to an incredibly intense workload, and to halt when it encounters even one minor error, whereas most normal applications do not stress the CPU anywhere near as much, and will continue to operate unless they encounter a fatal error."

It looks like memtest is more suited to the task as you say however.
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Old 09-23-2015, 05:15 PM   #57
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@Max: do you see 80C when idling? Or did you refer to temperatures during the stress test? Because for idling, 80C is very high.

@JHudges: Well sounds like it does verify data integrity if you uncheck the "Run FFTs in-place" checkbox...

Did you happen to uncheck it, Max?

Also, as anything running from within the OS, Prime95 does not use or test RAM already occupied by the OS. That's why you need a bootable device with dedicated memtest on it to make a proper assessment.

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Old 09-23-2015, 05:27 PM   #58
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Reg. Hard Disk Sentinel, I can not comment about its ability to interpret SMART data as I have never used it. I can say however that software differs widely in accuracy and correctness of this interpretation, and even industry-standard software such as Aida64 doesn't handle SMART well. I suggest tools that in my experience get this right more often than others, which is HDDGuardian and gsmartcontrol. For Mac OS X, there is DriveDX that does exceptionally good job.
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:09 PM   #59
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Quote:
Seems like his Prime95 tests would have ruled out the RAM?
It should, and rule out most hardware but to really sign off on that it needs to run 24 hours or so. Thought it does look like Max ran it for 21 so that's pretty good and rules out a lot of stuff to be honest. Many use it for that exact reason; hardware stability testing. Typically if it can run ~n hours without a single error, it 'usually' isn't hardware that is involved with code (mobo, periperials, memory, chip etc.).

Quote:
Frankly I don't know whether it verifies data integrity.
IIRC It does to an extent because if it isn't good data, the prime calcs will result in an error. That could be missed if the bad address never gets accessed but his BSOD's are pretty darn common which I think is revealing. Meaning if he crashes that much, I'd certainly hope Prime95 would show errors after a day of testing.

The strange boot error is really the same as one of the errors in the dumps I reviewed before, so it's essentially the same thing, just occurring during boot:

C:\>err 0XC00700C1

# as an HRESULT: Severity: FAILURE (1), Facility: 0x7, Code 0xc1
# for hex 0xc1 / decimal 193 :

SPECIAL_POOL_DETECTED_MEMORY_CORRUPTION

Let's be aware that a bad memory/disk address BSOD (and specifically the ones I saw in all the dumps) weren't "I have bad data at this good address", it was specifically "I was told to access a memory address that either isn't mine or simply does not exist". The latter is akin to delivering pizza to an address, only to find it's a vacant lot when you show up; you were told to go to 123 Elm St but the good data is on 123 Maple Ave. Small but very important difference that means the address gets munged some unknown time in the past and before the crash. Could be 5ms earlier or 5 minutes earlier.

There is no way I can definitively say "it is the PSU", that's not possible but you guys seem to be ruling out everything else.

If it were me... I'd sign off on each thing tested as 'good/passed' until the only possible culprit is what still remains. One must commit to that process, otherwise, the only thing accomplished is testing the same thing over and over again hoping it's the culprit; better to eliminate one by one, never needing to revisit. If there are disk/memory tests that still need to be done, do them properly and move on. IIRC he had replaced the memory sticks early on. IOW, don't try to prove it's memory, try to prove it is not memory, rinse/repeat.

Might check the Mobo settings. Is this thing overclocked in any way? Is the CPU fan packed full of dust and seated poorly due to oxidation, yada, yada.
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:44 PM   #60
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@karbo: Agreed about all except the psu. This might be the psu somehow, but then why didn't it fail during the 23-hour long stress test? I did not suggest prime95 as a tool to test memory, but it's good to know it can do that. However I can not say memtest can be signed out based on what I know, esp. considering that according to JHughes' quote, you need to configure Prime95 in a particular way for it to verify data integrity.

IMO, the following things are still potential causes, in the order of likelyhood:
1) HDD problems
2) OS corruption problems, incl. AV software corruption and a bad Windows update.
3) RAM problems
4) Graphic card problems
5) PSU problems
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:00 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by innuendo View Post
but then why didn't it fail during the 23-hour long stress test?
To be honest, the only reason I let the PSU temporarily off the hook is because it powers every piece of hardware in the box. However, running Prime95 makes the CPU hotter, so I'd think it would be drawing more current. However again... a sudden but short hardware demand might cause a transient sag that happens to be the thing that takes it down. Or is it breaking down and developing ripple meaning it doesn't need load to cause the error, just a shittier quality of smooth, pure and steady DC.

Translation... beats me, I don't have enough data to verify which is which above.
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Old 09-24-2015, 04:54 AM   #62
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Maybe because he lives, like he said "in the sticks" maybe he is getting power surges or drops.

I'm definitely not as knowledgeable as you guys, but my past random crash and reboot problems over the years were usually caused by dust and, subsequently, heat problems. Probably not pertinent to his problem which seems to occur always at the same time which would seem to point away from the PSU.

But, you guys are the docs and doing a very commendable and generous job. Interesting read.


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Old 09-24-2015, 06:40 AM   #63
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Quote:
IMO, the following things are still potential causes, in the order of likelyhood:
1) HDD problems
2) OS corruption problems, incl. AV software corruption and a bad Windows update.
3) RAM problems
4) Graphic card problems
5) PSU problems
My concern is that we aren't making any progress if none of the above can be taken off the table. Really need to be able to begin formally crossing items off ^that list.
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:28 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
My concern is that we aren't making any progress if none of the above can be taken off the table. Really need to be able to begin formally crossing items off ^that list.
Right, but then Max seems to be more interested in making experiments than in following a structured diagnostic scheme... For instance, we can't cross off HDD issues prior to SMART review, can we?
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:30 AM   #65
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Agreed karbo.

And I would add "motherboard" to the list. Good components don't mean much on a broken/faulty/intermittent motherboard. But I don't know how to test a motherboard pass/fail other than to swap it out with another one.
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:36 AM   #66
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Quote:
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Right, but then Max seems to be more interested in making experiments than in following a structured diagnostic scheme... For instance, we can't cross off HDD issues prior to SMART review, can we?
I'm not pointing fingers, just sayin' we gotta cross items off that list at some point. IIRC, early on he said he completely swapped out the RAM so maybe that can be crossed off for the time being?

I'm going a little old school here since I haven't been on the desktop side in years but what happened to the good ole days when SMART warned you at boot time if there were issues? That's really the thing that doesn't add up for me with chasing the HDDs, the frequency of the crashes far outnumber any other HDD indicators.

Lastly the Special Pool crash above is a driver-level protection mechanism. I might possibly be able to find that exact driver if Max provides the mini dump that goes with that error. I may have a copy of an earlier but don't remember.
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:46 AM   #67
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Actually at this point, OS corruption is the most likely cause IMHO. However it would be irrational to attempt fixing the OS before we know for sure that the HDD is healthy. Even for the fact that HDD issues might had caused the OS corruption.
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:53 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by innuendo View Post
Actually at this point, OS corruption is the most likely cause IMHO. .
All corruption means in that context is "we don't know what's broken". I say that from a challenge ourselves perspective because I tend to use it myself when grabbing for straws.

Conversely, from a "let's not search forever" perspective, if we think the OS is hosed, he could just nuke, pave and reinstall and call it day. We might be missing the obvious here, does add/remove programs show any installs or updates that occurred before the crashes started for example. Much of that methodical test/confirm and move on piece is going to be up to Max.
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:53 AM   #69
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Ram has passed AFAIC.
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Old 09-24-2015, 11:59 AM   #70
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Ram has passed AFAIC.
Yea, reading up on the error a few threads up, I start thinking driver again...

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx

There some secret sauce settings that can be applied to cause the crash to occur earlier but too deep IMHO to do here. If anyone remembers my comment about "the corruption occurred a little earlier", there is a special way to crash during the little earlier piece but again, way, way too much trouble.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:04 PM   #71
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My friend has a kickass machine that used to reboot when he was playing games...turned out to be the SMPS, he needed a beefy 1kW job to make it stable. His video card is a heater but it has a lifetime warranty and he's had it replaced a couple of times for free already.

But OP has big problems now, the corruption has spread and he'll need to reinstall Windows. That's aside from his hardware issue of course.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:07 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHughes View Post
But OP has big problems now, the corruption has spread and he'll need to reinstall Windows. That's aside from his hardware issue of course.
Looks like I missed some of Max's comments as of late so yea, who knows at this point... Video card, HDD, PSU. I didn't catch that it was progressively getting worse so just ignore any of my comments above that didn't take that into account. I was ignoring HDD because I didn't pick up on that piece.
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Old 09-24-2015, 12:21 PM   #73
innuendo
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OS corruption means a software issue, not a hardware issue. As you say, a problem with a driver. That doesn't mean there is no hardware issue accompanying it, just that the direct cause of the crashes is in software. And there are some ways to attemlt to fix these problems without reinstalling. Checkdisk, sfc scan, and then some specialized tools like the tweaking.com repair tool to name a few. However considering the pace, it may be wiser to reinstall indeed.
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:50 AM   #74
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WOW - the last email notification I got was from g8torcliff's post, so everything after that I have only just seen...

First of all, my hands are up! I plead guilty to first degree non-focussing on a rational diagnostic plan. It's the story of my life unfortunately, and I do - far to often - go for the "throw mud against the wall until it sticks" approach. So I'm going to treat this as much as a lesson in personality as it is in computing, and will from here on in follow the advice being offered much more closely.

So first up, here are those screen shots from GSmartControl.

The OS drive to begin with...
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:52 AM   #75
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Data Drive One:
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:53 AM   #76
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Data Drive Two:
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:58 AM   #77
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All 9 screenshots together in a zip if that is easier for viewing:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5T...ew?usp=sharing
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Old 09-26-2015, 03:06 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by innuendo View Post
Next would be GPU test:
http://www.geeks3d.com/20140304/gput...-gpu-database/
After you unzip the file, open the "gputestgui" or whatever it is called. Just run a couple of tests and while they are running, take notice of peak temperatures with hwmonitor.
This next...... but the link only offers a 64-bit download. Any chance of a link to the correct download for 32-bit Windows please?

Just for the record, I have run an old version of Furmark (1.15.1.0) that I already had installed (I think I did that before posting on the forum) and it was fine. Just ran it agin now for 20 minutes. The temperature of the GC reached 72C. I've attached the HWMonitor screenshot....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FurMark - HD5450 - Screenshot 01.jpg (51.9 KB, 71 views)

Last edited by Bob Headroom; 09-26-2015 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 09-26-2015, 03:47 AM   #79
innuendo
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Your HDDs are perfectly healthy.

If you ran Furmark in "Burn-in test" mode and had no crash, that likely means the GPU is fine, too. No need to run additional GPU tests IMHO.

Next I would suggest to run checkdisk:
1) open the command prompt
2) type in
Code:
chkdsk volume:/f
(replace "volume" with the letter assigned to your OS volume)
3) You should be presented with the message
Code:
Chkdsk cannot run because the volume is in use by another process. Would you like to schedule this volume to be checked the next time the system restarts? (Y/N)
- type y and press enter
4) Reboot and let chkdsk run.
5) When you are back to the OS, post a new csv from the "System" event logs.

And the next step is to run the following in the command prompt:
Code:
sfc /scannow
It should then ask you to insert a CD disk containing your Windows XP installation. Unfortunately, it is impossible to perform this fix without the CD.
When sfc completes, please copy and post here all the output from the command prompt.
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Old 09-26-2015, 11:26 AM   #80
Bob Headroom
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Good news about the HDDs....

Yes, it was the burn-in test that I ran.

OK, so on to checkdisk will I'll set running now. No idea how long it takes, but I want to watch the rugby so no problem if it is a long one! Should I just do it for the OS drive and leave the others?

Also, just to satisfy my curiosity (and for future reference), what's the difference between checkdisk and HDTune's Error Scan?

Thanks for the continued amazing support with this...
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