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View Poll Results: Do you need "Pooled boxes" for Audio-Items?
Yes I need them 21 95.45%
Never needed them 1 4.55%
I don't know 0 0%
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:06 AM   #1
enroe
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Default [suggestion: Audio] Pooled box for Audio-Items

After a look at Reaper and a glance into
the manual one important missing feature
struck me:

Audio: Pooled box for Audio-Items

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Audio: Pooled box for Audio-Items
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imagine you have recorded the chorus vocals. And
imagine you have chosen the best "takes", put together
all the items, cut + moved the second and third
unisono-vocals for the chorus. Finally there are
many cuts, fades and edits on 6 tracks.



The problem is: You need this identical combination
of a myriad of items at all your chorus positions. And
you have many chorus positions.



What can you do? Copy + Paste every single item?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard procedure in Reaper
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two possible ways to go on:

1. You can group all the various audio-items of the chorus.
And you can copy this group to all the other
chorus-positions. So then you have your "choruses".

2. You freeze all the chorus-items per track. So you
have only 6 freeze-items which could be copied
very easy.

But one problem remains:

What happens if you need to change a fading or a
take-volume-envelope in the chorus?
In this case you have to do these changes in one
of the choruses and (1) then you have to copy this
chorus-group to all the other chorus positions.
Tedious and time-consuming! Or you (2) have to
defreeze, do your changes , freeze again and copy
again to all the other places.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there a workaround in Reaper?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes: The arrangement of your chorus-vocals must be
so elaborated and accurate that you'll never never
have to change anything in the future. Maybe
Reaper is disciplining its users?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion + Solution
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

My suggestion is: Create an "item-box"!

You draw a rectangle over all audio-items of a track
and say: "Create item box". Now all selected
audio items of this track will be sourrounded by
a box.



There is a command: "Create item box"
And a second command: "Delete item box". In this
case only the box is deleted, not the items inside.
The items inside become free again, being just
normal items on a track.

The crucial mechanism is: You can pool-copy this
box. And all pool-copied boxes are not real
copies - they are only references to the original
box!



This would be easy and simple: You put together
your audio-items for the chorus, you do all complex
editings, fadings, envelopes etc. Then you create
a box for every track. Then you select the boxes
on all tracks and "pool-copy" these boxes to all
your chorus-positions.

And that's all: Whenever you need to change the
chorus-vocals you just enter the box. Yeah,
"enter box" is the third command for boxes. So
you enter the box and a box-window opens.
This box window looks exactly like "zoomed
at a single track in a time selection". So it's
nothing special or new. Here in the box-window
you do the needed changes: You change the
volume or the position of an item. Finally you just
close the box.

Nothing more: The changes you did will automatically
apply to all the other chorus vocals. It's like a
miracle!


(If I didn't oversee something or somebody has
a better suggestion ... )
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:17 AM   #2
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Subprojects can be used for this, so this is already quite possible.


While it's admirable you're checking out the manual, there's tons of info manuals don't cover, you should also probably go through Kenny's video tutorials here: https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php

There's a lot of them. There's one for subprojects, too.


Also, perhaps it would be worth it for you to post in this subforum first, asking if something might be already possible in a way that manual doesn't cover, before you start rapid firing new threads in feature requests forum?
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:05 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Subprojects can be used for this, so this is already quite possible.
Thank you!

Oh yes, it seems that "subprojects" are fantastic for
getting organized. But here - in our case - the crucial
question is:

Can I use one subproject many times in one parentproject?
What's the answer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Also, perhaps it would be worth it for you to post in this subforum first, asking if something might be already possible in a way that manual doesn't cover, before you start rapid firing new threads in feature requests forum?
At the moderators: Feel free to move this thread!
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:11 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Can I use one subproject many times in one parentproject?
What's the answer?
Yes, you can. And once you modify the referenced project, the changes are applied to all the instances of it in the master project.
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Old 04-15-2018, 06:20 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yes, you can. And once you modify the referenced project, the changes are applied to all the instances of it in the master project.
Oh, that is perfect!
An elegant solution - Reaper is quite amazing!
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:15 PM   #6
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Default Second look: Pooled box for Audio-Items

Hello folks!

At a second look there is a fly in the ointment, sorry!
Think of the example I described in the first post. Now
there are two ways of creating a subproject:

1. You create one subproject per track. For 6 tracks
you have 6 subprojects.

2. You create only one subproject for all tracks.

-------------------------------------------------------
Let's have a look at the consequences:
-------------------------------------------------------

Case 1: 6 subprojects for chorus vocals.

Here we loose the connection of the 6 tracks. Any
future change - possibly moves of small items - must
be done in viewing all the audio-items of the other
5 tracks. Maybe a vocal-consonant of tracks no. 4 and 5
is not exact at the correct position. To find the
correct position we have so compare the position
of the same consonants in the tracks 1, 2, 3 and 6.
But in "case 1" we can't: Here we loose the connection
of the tracks.

-------------------------------------------------------

Case 2: One subproject for all chorus vocals.

Now the connection of tracks is given, any change
is done easily.

But the creation of a subproject cuts all sends of
the former tracks
they had in the parent-project.
In case 2 you have to create the same send-tracks
with the same Insert-Effects with the same settings.

If you want to change the amount of reverb, delay
or any other effect at only one of the six tracks
you have to switch to the subproject and do it
there. Very positive: You can playback the
subproject and the parentproject simultaneously -
that's good!

But you always have to switch. Back + forth,
in and out. Ok - that's the workaround. Maybe
I am too pedantic here ...

-------------------------------------------------------

All in all and for complex productions, film scores etc.
subprojects are a fantastic feature with great potential.

But for this specific thing - for repeating chorus vocals or
a repeating brass-section - and considering the pure
ergonomics, I would prefer the easy and pleasing looking
"box-solution": Draw a box and pool-copy this box,
and that's all:



Just "pool-copy" and no hassle at all: A small step for
Reaper, but a big step for musicians? What do you think?
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Old 05-19-2018, 06:53 AM   #7
enroe
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Default Third look: Pooled box for Audio-Items

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Takes?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the meantime I tried if it would be possible
to arrange audio-clips inside an item - with "takes"
only. But that's not possible:

"Takes" are entities for applying pitch, stretch and FX.
But the entities for cutting, moving and crossfading are
still the "Items".

So there's still the need of boxes around items.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Composing
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In terms of composing the feature "box" is the last missing
part. That is because you can "pool-copy" complex midi-
melodies which include all kinds of cc (controller data).

But you can't "pool-copy" complex audio-arrangements.
All changes in the vocal audio-arrangement must be
tediously copied by hand to all occurrences of this
arrangement in a song.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reaper philosophy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my opinion the feature "box" is fitting very well to the the
philosophy or reaper. That is because Reaper abstracts from
Audio-items and Midi-items. Basically Audio-items and
Midi-items are the same, and they are treated very simliar.

You can pool-copy complex melodies in midi-items.
In contrast to that you can't pool-copy complex audio-parts
consisting of several fades and volume-adaptions.

So the "pool-copy" of audio-items - preferably in a box -
is a missing feature - IMO.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:35 AM   #8
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Hey enroe, have you tried "propagate to similarly named" actions? (just search "propagate" in the actions list) They are designed for such cases as you want pooled audio items for.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:49 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutronic View Post
Hey enroe, have you tried "propagate to similarly named" actions? (just search "propagate" in the actions list) They are designed for such cases as you want pooled audio items for.
Thanks!

Yes I was looking for "propagate". This command transfers
the volume-, pan- and fx-setting of one item to other items.
That's a nice feature, but it doesn't work here.

Imagine a chorus-vocal-line consisting of a bundle of
audio-items which have crossfades between each other,
which have different lengthes etc. (see pictures of the
first upper post): This "bundle" of audio-items are
the chorus, and it occurs at several positions in
your song.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:13 AM   #10
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I get your request, it's something like comps in Cubase, and I think it would be nice to have it. What I simply suggested there is something that can help solve the dilemma proposed in your initial post:
Quote:
But one problem remains:

What happens if you need to change a fading or a
take-volume-envelope in the chorus?
In another words, with propagate and subproject functionality existing I see no real problem. Though I agree that your suggestion might be more elegant (for the case). But if you want to help your workflow now - there are ways.

Last edited by Neutronic; 05-20-2019 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:37 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutronic View Post
I get your request, it's something like comps in Cubase, and I think it would be nice to have it.
In Cubase these boxes are called "parts": All cutting, moving, crossfading
etc is done in the part. The part can the be "pool-copied" anywhere.

In Logic the boxes are called "folder" and they can contain even tracks
(but that would be too much for most users).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutronic View Post
What I simply suggested there is something that can help solve the dilemma proposed in your initial post:

Quote:
But one problem remains:

What happens if you need to change a fading or a
take-volume-envelope in the chorus?
Yes - I see.

I should have added: Also Fades, Crossfades, Item-Moves, Item-cuts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutronic View Post
In another words, with propagate and subproject functionality existing I see no real problem. Though I agree that your suggestion might be more elegant (for the case). But if you want to help your workflow now - there are ways.
Subprojects are pretty good, indeed. As I stated above they
induce some other problems, for instance you have to construct
an identical mixer-send-configuration. But this is doable -
with a little effort.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:02 AM   #12
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I don't remember exactly how it is called in Cubase and haven't worked it Logic at all - my point was I get what you're requesting. And it's a nice request indeed.

I'm just rather a solution oriented person and simply wanted to share what already exists in REAPER in case it was not known.

Oh, and a little clarification - with propagate actions fades are also copied (as well as some other stuff like content offset).
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutronic View Post
I'm just rather a solution oriented person and simply wanted to share what already exists in REAPER in case it was not known.
Thank you, Neutronic!
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Old 07-28-2018, 12:00 AM   #14
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A small supplement

My experiences concerning the arrangement of songs:
The "subproject-workaround" does the job, but it
is not convenient for repeating chorusses or
repeating phrases: You have to open the subproject,
you can have the parentproject run along synchronized,
but you can't - for example - watch midi-items or
audio-items of the parent's project. So it's a permanent
back + forth switching.

My conclusion is: Pooled boxes (or whatever you
call it, see also --> first post!) is something reaper is
still lacking.

This feature is not a small thing - it is an
essential structuring element of any DAW - IMO.
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Old 07-28-2018, 02:01 AM   #15
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Well said, full agreement here.
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Old 08-21-2018, 03:09 PM   #16
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Full agreement also here. Subprojects are not enough for me.
I would like to add that I see posts as old as 2011 already asking for pooled items. That feature was not really existing anywhere else at this time and would have given a lot more capability to Reaper, arrangement and composition wise.
Come on devs, the community is offering great features on a plate. Just take them
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Old 08-21-2018, 03:53 PM   #17
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Totally agree, Sub projects is way too clumsy.

I am working on/ testing a workflow simulation in Reaper of Cubase's great "Part" feature, using a made Custom Action.

So far, i must say, it looks quite promising regarding pooling media items.
It's essentially based on making a Folder Track for the "to be pooled items" and then Grouping those Items, together with a created empty "dummy item" on the Folder Track, with the length of a pre-defined Time Selection. (you're still with me ?! )

The strength of Custom Action i am working on is that the Pooling is only applied to Items you Marquee select (or even "Marquee-add" select; which is possible in mouse modifiers).
So the pooling isn't about pooling ALL Items in a pre defined Time Selection for example (which is totally not what pooling is about).

I am still struggling with pooling visible "item underlying" envelope points in the pre-defined Time Selection together with the "to be pooled" media items.
I am experiencing that first putting all those visible envelope points into their media item lanes before making a "Part" (Pool), seems to work best for the whole concept of "pooling", regarding duplication of the Pool / trimming of the Pool etc etc.

Putting envelope points into media lanes (instead of making automation items), is a better workflow imho for true "pooling".
More research is involved before i put my idea in the World.
But again, i think i am developing something quite nifty and very useful.

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Old 08-21-2018, 05:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
you're still with me ?!
Not at all.

I get what is a Folder Track and the "super items" actions
you can do with them. Like, a splitting in the track folder
splits every items in the sub tracks. But, do you have a
video showing the Cubase Part feature ?

You are developping something able to pool items from multiples
tracks at will if I've followed you correctly ? This is very
interesting (who can do more can do less) and if you need testers
I'm in

The aim for me would be more or less to be able to make audio
clips stick inside a Midi item. So the Midi item is now actually
a clip container, an can be pooled.

So instead of having a zillion snares and ghost snares on
my snare track, or having to 'render glue' items together
in a wav file (which take a crazy useless amount of space),
I just create a 4 bars long empty midi item, I put audio
clips on it and then pool at will, the most important feature
being that the change on one must reflect on the others.

Edit/addendum: The way Bitwig handles this is excellent,
you have three objects:
- Items
- Audio Clips
- Midi Clips

Clips are aggregated inside Items, and Items can be
looped and copied, but not pooled afaik.

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Old 08-21-2018, 11:30 PM   #19
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"The aim for me would be more or less to be able to make audio
clips stick inside a Midi item. So the Midi item is now actually
a clip container, an can be pooled.

So instead of having a zillion snares and ghost snares on
my snare track, or having to 'render glue' items together
in a wav file (which take a crazy useless amount of space),
I just create a 4 bars long empty midi item, I put audio
clips on it and then pool at will, the most important feature
being that the change on one must reflect on the others.
"

This all is exactly what already is possible with my Custom Action in progress,
If i have time today i can make a video showcase about it.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:07 PM   #20
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Vanhaze you are a hero !
Forget the video, send the script

Edit: I'm checking your Youtube channel right now.
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Old 09-06-2018, 12:35 AM   #21
enroe
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Since in Reaper there is NO explicit audio editor it is
even more important to have "pooled boxes for audio items".

Why?

In another thread a newbie asked for an audio-editor in
Reaper.

My answer was: The whole arrange window in Reaper is
a big audio-editor. All actions you can do in the cubase-audio
editor are directly accessible in the arrange window: You
can split audio-items and you can apply fades, crossfades
and FX.

But - after you did all these things - you'll have a bunch of
snippets, shreds and fragments of audio. In order to use
these and place them properly into your arrangement you
have to consider all the things discussed above:

1. Render the snippets
2. Put them into subprojects
3. Group them
4. Draw a "box" around them, for moves, copies and
pooled copies.


The most convenient and best solution would be (4), which
is currently not possible in Reaper.
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Old 09-07-2018, 10:45 PM   #22
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This is such an obvious "must have" feature for anyone making hip hop / techno / edm. Its a fundamental feature of cubase, FL studio, ableton. Reaper has to have this feature to ever compete with the major DAWS. It's such a shame I've been waiting for this feature for years now while using FL and ableton in the interim. Please implement this in a nice way, not some complicated script.
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Old 09-07-2018, 10:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryPalms View Post
This is such an obvious "must have" feature for anyone making hip hop / techno / edm. Its a fundamental feature of cubase, FL studio, ableton.
Sorry, but where is it in Fl studio?
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Old 09-08-2018, 07:40 PM   #24
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That's how FL patterns works as default, but granted these are only midi patterns so not the same thing.

But the point stands with cubase & ableton. I assume logic has this too but don't use logic. How about studio one?

I'm just trying to stress that this feature is germane to the workflow of guys working with samples to make music. Which I assume is the largest market out there for DAW users these days.

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Old 04-29-2019, 09:07 AM   #25
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For a better understanding I made a small table, where
you can see what is already there and what not:



For a comparsion here's how "boxes" are called
in Logic and Cubase:

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Old 05-09-2019, 01:35 AM   #26
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I am totally with you here.

I am constantly having to copy / paste my audio each time I change it somewhere...
I have always the risk to forget to make one copy, and this is quite time consuming...

I would love to use "patterns" and to be able to use them where I want, or to simply have the same concept has the "midi pool" but for audio.

I have an idea, but did not develop it really yet, as it is not that intuitive, that would be to use Reasamplomatic to trigger my audio clip, so my audio clip would be existing only once in my project, and whenever I want to use it, I trigger it via midi....
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:40 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbe View Post
I am constantly having to copy / paste my audio each time I change it somewhere ...
I have always the risk to forget to make one copy, and this is quite time consuming ...
Yes, exactly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by winbe View Post
... use Reasamplomatic to trigger my audio clip, so my audio clip would be existing
only once in my project, and whenever I want to use it, I trigger it via midi ...
Oh yeah, that is the "advanced" audio-render
(or "advanced" freeze-item) workaround.
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:04 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryPalms View Post
I'm just trying to stress that this feature is germane to the workflow of guys working with samples to make music.
Yeah, exactly that!

This thing is crucial for every repetitive structure which consists of
audio-items or contains audio-items.
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Old 06-17-2019, 03:19 PM   #29
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Bitwig and ableton have this functionality. A clip is kind of like a mini sequencer.

I use subprojects extensively, but they are not quite the same. The main issue for me is that, although they can be played along with the main project, they can't be routed through their associated track in the main project, meaning changes you do inside them can sound totally different when returning to the main project and auditioning through the whole mix structure.
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Old 07-04-2019, 04:14 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travesty View Post
I use subprojects extensively, but ... although they can be played along with the main project, they can't be routed through their associated track in the main project, meaning changes you do inside them can sound totally different when returning to the main project and auditioning through the whole mix structure.
Yes, exactly!

Also the creation of a subproject is much more circuitous: First you
have to choose the appropriate subproject-folder, second you have
to rename the created subproject. Subproject-handling needs much
more time and mouse-clicks than just drawing a box and saying: "Box"!
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Old 08-04-2019, 08:29 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travesty View Post
... ableton have this functionality. A clip is kind of like a mini sequencer.
Does it really? AFAIK consolidating audio in Ableton is destructive and there's no way to independently move the contents inside a container. It works great in Bitwig though but considering it doesn't have any way to propagate the changes to similar items quickly it's just crippled.
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Old 08-05-2019, 01:54 PM   #32
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+1 for this.. developers pls
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:28 PM   #33
enroe
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slight bump.

This is a topic which might need some focus.
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:05 AM   #34
BirdBird
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This feature is essential to have for any DAW that is going to be used for making modern music.
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Old 10-14-2019, 04:38 PM   #35
Mr. M
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+1

Also, would be nice if the track name and time where an item was recorded was kept track of, such that you could either reinsert a deleted item (assuming the pool includes deleted items who's files are still present) at it's original location on the original or newly created replacement for the original track. Heck, given that functionality, you could reconstruct the tracking of an entire project from the pool.
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:55 AM   #36
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I was just trying to figure out if i'd rather work with freeze-objects or subprojects.
Since i didn't know how to create pooled audio items i came across this thread and wondered that it actually doesn't exist yet.
It's always useful to have the structure of the project in mind, to work in context. This is missing when editing sub-projects.

+1!

Last edited by Whelfen; 10-15-2019 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 10-18-2019, 07:37 AM   #37
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I am +100000 with this...

It would save me hours and hours of having to copy paste, and copy and paste again, here time I do some changes...
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Old 10-18-2019, 08:38 PM   #38
Joe90
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+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whelfen View Post
I was just trying to figure out if i'd rather work with freeze-objects or subprojects.
Since i didn't know how to create pooled audio items i came across this thread and wondered that it actually doesn't exist yet.
It's always useful to have the structure of the project in mind, to work in context. This is missing when editing sub-projects.

+1!
Agreed. This is why subprojects (awesome as they are) are not a great solution for this issue, often the need to edit a part in context is crucial (more often than not in my experience).
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