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Old 06-18-2018, 06:40 AM   #41
schwa
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Please don't be mean to each other. aveter has a reasonable request that REAPER can't easily accommodate. It doesn't mean REAPER is broken and it doesn't mean aveter is crazy to request it.
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Old 06-18-2018, 07:01 AM   #42
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Glad that this is still going…

The math goes a bit above my head but maybe it is not who is right in that aspect but what is the most practical way of doing something? Certain tools have evolved because it is the most practical way of working. What I don't get is WHY the developers have chosen a different route than all other DAW's. I suspect it has to do with making tempo changes gradual and not stepped like other DAW’s (If you use a small enough resolution I don’t see a problem with stepped)

To change this would probably break old projects, but that is no exception in software land and you can keep an old version of REAPER at hand when the occasion arises?

As a side note: It still baffles me that REAPER has no native function to insert beats (every musician works with beats, not time) If you insert time with a tempo change somewhere, the arrangement wanders of the grid… A lot has been fixed but my markers still wander of the grid when using regions with a tempo map (very hard to consistently reproduce and maybe things are related to this discussion)
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Old 06-18-2018, 07:04 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Please don't be mean to each other. aveter has a reasonable request that REAPER can't easily accommodate. It doesn't mean REAPER is broken and it doesn't mean aveter is crazy to request it.
Agree! Some respect en give each other some room to breath... Aveter has put a lot of effort in making his point
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:24 AM   #44
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When people start to be scientific, that is always suspicious
(I work with scientists last 23 years)

Correct me in case I am wrong:
1) MIDI files have no "gradual tempo changes", right?
2) MIDI protocol has no "gradual tempo change message", right?
3) do VST support gradual tempo changes? I have not seen that.

If so, how all that is relevant?

I understand that when in REAPER you say "I want linear tempo change" it generates not the same tempo changes as let say Cubase.
Can someone write a script which generates different curve so OP is happy?
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:16 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Please don't be mean to each other. aveter has a reasonable request that REAPER can't easily accommodate. It doesn't mean REAPER is broken and it doesn't mean aveter is crazy to request it.
I still think a second mode for tempo envelope (like when you implemented fader scaling for volume envelopes) is the best solution for this.

But seems like you lost a potential customer here, regardless. Which is sad, but that still doesn't mean you shouldn't do this change and add an option. Like, ASAP.


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That says it. This is not possible for you because the fix will affect the platform in a fundamental way.
No, it's like your reading comprehension skills are non-existant. schwa didn't say that the change is impossible, he said that it would be a DEEP CHANGE. What would be nearly impossible is converting EXISTING PROJECTS to the linear beats method, so you would need to do those projects FROM SCRATCH. It is not impossible to implement this. Read what schwa said again and please understand what was mentioned:

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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
We do recognize that interoperability would be improved if we supported linear-beats tempo changes, but it would be a deep change and it would be difficult or impossible to convert existing projects without completely mangling them. It would have to be a decision made permanently when the first linear tempo change is introduced.
Do you understand what was said here?



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Your further remarks are a pathetic excuse for your powerlessness and lack of knowledge.
Wow, the amount of self-entitledness and arrogance that exude from your posts is amazing. How about learning some humility? It is not about who's right, it's about things being done in different but equally valid ways. Understand that.

Plus, you're also insulting the developers here. You have quite some nerve to do that!


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Aveter has put a lot of effort in making his point
And he put zero effort in understanding why Reaper's method is not wrong, it's just different. No, he HAS to be the one who's right, and eveyrbody else is stupid, including developers. That's his stance. Fuck that.

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Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III View Post
What I don't get is WHY the developers have chosen a different route than all other DAW's.
Reaper is not the only DAW that has linear time timeline - Cubase also has an option for that. So no, it's not a different route from all other DAWs. I'm sure some other DAWs have an option for linear time vs linear beats timeline as well. What's missing in Reaper is the option for linear beats. Feature request for that actually already exists and it's years old.

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Old 06-18-2018, 10:26 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
When people start to be scientific, that is always suspicious
(I work with scientists last 23 years)

Correct me in case I am wrong:
1) MIDI files have no "gradual tempo changes", right?
2) MIDI protocol has no "gradual tempo change message", right?
3) do VST support gradual tempo changes? I have not seen that.
1. Nope, but you can change tempo on any MIDI tick.
2. Same as 1.
3. Plugins support whatever tempo the host send them. They're just listening that, they don't need to know about gradual tempo changes or not.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:17 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Please don't be mean to each other. aveter has a reasonable request that REAPER can't easily accommodate. It doesn't mean REAPER is broken and it doesn't mean aveter is crazy to request it.
Sorry if i came across mean. Not my intention.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:30 AM   #48
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OT, thinking this through:
(and I use tempo-changes in almost every project)

In my experience,
Linear transition over time (as Reaper have it) is more musical than over beat (That means more natural to my subjective ears)

I do wish for exponential curves, but they would usually be inverted from what you get with linear transition over beat,
aka x^2 instead of x^-2 (or opposite).
Then bezier-curves would reflect the nature of transition through a point best.

In practical terms however, stability triumphs everything,
and linear is working quite well.

Knowing that a few programs use linear over beats is worth accepting though,
and the devs could see if this could be supported in some way.
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:08 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Reaper is not the only DAW that has linear time timeline - Cubase also has an option for that. So no, it's not a different route from all other DAWs. I'm sure some other DAWs have an option for linear time vs linear beats timeline as well. What's missing in Reaper is the option for linear beats. Feature request for that actually already exists and it's years old.
You have taken that part a bit out of context, but : "What's missing in Reaper is the option for linear beats" Is exactly what I mean by a different route than all other DAWs.
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:48 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III View Post
You have taken that part a bit out of context, but : "What's missing in Reaper is the option for linear beats" Is exactly what I mean by a different route than all other DAWs.
Well, you have to admit that choosing linear, and it shows up non-linear is kind of counter-intuitive?
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:57 PM   #51
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That is why we need a new tempo envelope type as per schwa's initial suggestion. Where linear tempo change would still show linear, but be linear in beats rather than linear in time.
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:20 PM   #52
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So what is the final decision?
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Make a thread "F%#! you Reaper! I quit!" to get more views and feedback since these kind of threads get much more traction
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Old 06-22-2018, 01:42 PM   #53
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I am curious: in which musical situations is the precise shape of the linear tempo change relevant?

Quote:
You can count as you like, even on hyperbole, but this is wrong. The physical process of tempo change itself takes place according to natural laws.
When I insert accelerandos and ritardandos, I very seldom use "gradual transition" for the entire accel or rit. Instead, I draw my own custom curves using lots of closely-spaced points, and the eventual shapes may be closer to sine, fast start, fast end, or some Bézier.


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The fact that there are a lot of errors in Guitar Pro 7 is well known, but from Guitar Pro 7 to Cubase it was unloaded exactly "tick to tick". I'm making a video about it now.
Bugs aside (such as REAPER not exporting tempo maps before time 0:0.000), none of this linear time vs linear beats vs square shape stuff should make any difference to tick positions.
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Old 06-22-2018, 01:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
I am curious: in which musical situations is the precise shape of the linear tempo change relevant?

When I insert accelerandos and ritardandos, I very seldom use "gradual transition" for the entire accel or rit. Instead, I draw my own custom curves using lots of closely-spaced points, and the eventual shapes may be closer to sine, fast start, fast end, or some Bézier.
You're right. When the distance between two points are shorter than the smallest rhythmical value we use, then the shape of the points have less and less importance.
But, for tweaking points, the non-square lines needs less points and can be easier made and edited.
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Old 06-24-2018, 02:34 PM   #55
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A comment from the peanut gallery: as soon as you start to cavil over precise mathematical options and apply them to music, I get nervous.
There is a tendency for people who regard their music as a science rather than exclusively an art to want things musical to adhere precisely to a formulaic approach.
Even J.S.B. didn`t do that!

I can sort of understand why someone would like to have this as an option, but I am not sure I would like the music that results from using it.
I am old school enough that I like music to at least sound like it could have been made by a human being more than a machine. Someone else in this thread mentioned the human element needing to be there in accel or rand passages. I agree 100%.

Maybe I am just old and in the way again.
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:41 PM   #56
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[QUOTE=ivansc;2004620as soon as you start to cavil over precise mathematical options and apply them to music, I get nervous.[/QUOTE]
Interesting question. Could really good music be expressed mathematically? There sure is a correlation.
But, I agree, true music transcends our mental capacities.
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