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04-17-2012, 12:25 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 174
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Why is MIDI editing item-based?
To be honest, this is more than a nitpick for me, but this seemed like the most appropriate forum for this post.
Why, really, is midi editing in Reaper dependent on items? Why is it not as it is in some other software like Sonar or Cubase, where the media editor allows you to edit / add midi notes to a track in your WHOLE project? I suspect it might be because tracks in Reaper not relegated to being either midi or audio tracks. I have a feeling this fact might affect a lot of aspects of midi users complain about. But this is just a guess. I'm not a programmer. I just don't see why else such seemingly simple ideas are not implemented at least as options when so many other aspects of Reaper are so complete and customizable. I'd love to hear some other thoughts on this.
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04-17-2012, 01:13 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 447
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It should be track based for sure. Period. Ask ED.
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04-18-2012, 05:11 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,553
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I think it was a design decision made from the beginning. One of these things you cannot easily change later on.
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04-18-2012, 08:58 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Down Under
Posts: 396
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I for one like item based editing. (Yes, I'm a minority).
I have used track based editing and to me, it feels wrong - it's like creating one giant MIDI item from start to end of a song. Every time you edit the track you have to double check what bar you are at before you edit. This happened *all* the time on the last DAW I used.
With item based editing, I open an item and I'm then editing *that* item. No confusion.
PS - I realize that *heaps* of people want "track based" MIDI editing. I just hope that if it's implemented into Reaper it done *much* better than the way I have used it. Or better still, a big "OFF" switch in the preferences.
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04-18-2012, 10:45 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 447
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With item based editing, how do you make changes that affect the whole midi track. For example when I select all of the hihats and get their velocities closer together (velocity compression)?
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04-18-2012, 11:00 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0rd
I for one like item based editing. (Yes, I'm a minority).
I have used track based editing and to me, it feels wrong - it's like creating one giant MIDI item from start to end of a song. Every time you edit the track you have to double check what bar you are at before you edit. This happened *all* the time on the last DAW I used.
With item based editing, I open an item and I'm then editing *that* item. No confusion.
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"Track Based" (in this case) means "being able to edit all the midi data that's on the same track, at the same time", which you can't currently do. It has nothing to do with one big midi item or one big midi clip or anything like that. If this were "track based" you'd be able to marquee select and edit notes across both of the two individual midi clips below, something you cannot do now.
Granted, if you prefer not being able to do that, that's fine... but you should know what people are actually asking for ... which is not what you talk about above. They only want to be able to easily edit what's clearly visible, together.
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04-18-2012, 04:28 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
"Track Based" (in this case) means "being able to edit all the midi data that's on the same track, at the same time", which you can't currently do.
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Yes. And two major features:
1) We want chase notes/events to work per-track (not just per-item).
2) We want to be able to perform MIDI operations (such as Quantize) for multiple items, or the whole track, in one go. These functions need to be accessible from the main interface (not just per-item from the MIDI editor).
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04-18-2012, 08:01 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 447
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Yes to Evan, and yes, the whole track editable, but with obvious visual separation between media items. (thick black bars or something). I want separate items as I color code them differently, but track based editing.
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04-18-2012, 08:24 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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I like item based better, personally.
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04-18-2012, 08:54 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 447
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So make it track based but with an option to lock yourself out of touching the rest of the track if you're that kind of person.
Can someone point me to a video or something that shows a situation where being locked out of the rest of the track was a good thing? Other than hitting select all notes (which could just have a different, item-based action if that's the whole problem).
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04-18-2012, 11:20 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0rd
I for one like item based editing. (Yes, I'm a minority).
I have used track based editing and to me, it feels wrong - it's like creating one giant MIDI item from start to end of a song. Every time you edit the track you have to double check what bar you are at before you edit. This happened *all* the time on the last DAW I used.
With item based editing, I open an item and I'm then editing *that* item. No confusion.
PS - I realize that *heaps* of people want "track based" MIDI editing. I just hope that if it's implemented into Reaper it done *much* better than the way I have used it. Or better still, a big "OFF" switch in the preferences.
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+1
i feel the same
For electronic music (what i do) its completely wrong thing
Last edited by Viente; 04-19-2012 at 12:49 AM.
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04-19-2012, 03:52 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 447
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Like I said before, make it optional. You're confused about what bar you are at, I want to be able to edit all my velocities for a given note. It would be easier to just make it track based with the option to lock out and make really dark the items you aren't editing.
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04-19-2012, 03:57 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan
1) We want chase notes/events to work per-track (not just per-item).
2) We want to be able to perform MIDI operations (such as Quantize) for multiple items, or the whole track, in one go. These functions need to be accessible from the main interface (not just per-item from the MIDI editor).
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+1 - these are the big 2
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04-19-2012, 04:17 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dalriada
Posts: 13,367
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I'm not big into midi,but if you want to change a group of items on a track,why not just export the whole track as a midi file,then import it again?
Just tried it.It takes about 10 seconds.
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04-19-2012, 04:46 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 447
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Because workarounds suck.
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04-19-2012, 04:52 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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yeah I dont think I would be happy with that workaround if I had to do it for every track.
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04-19-2012, 04:59 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjedidiah
It should be track based for sure. Period. Ask ED.
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ED was asked. ED agrees infinitely. Item based is just WRONG for MIDI. I mean, you can still have items and use them as "clips" which you can duplicate, stretch, compress, split, etc. (see those Krueger videos, for the millionth time!), but truthfully, I want to be able to see all items in the MIDI editor, and NOT WORRY about which one of those items is actually selected for editing... If I have a drum track with multiple items around, and I want to change something on ALL kicks there (like humanization or velocity randomization, whatever), I simply cannot do it intuitively from the MIDI editor, without messing up my items by glueing them. THIS IS SO WRONG!
Be it a design decision or not, [b]it was a bad one from the start.[b] The pros do not outweight the cons in this case. It is not impossible to change it. Cockos just needs to do the mileage, but they don't seem eager to do it, which will ultimately probably make me leave Reaper sooner or later... Because I really need this paradigm of MIDI workflow in Reaper.
Last edited by EvilDragon; 04-19-2012 at 05:04 AM.
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04-19-2012, 05:09 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dalriada
Posts: 13,367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjedidiah
With item based editing, how do you make changes that affect the whole midi track. For example when I select all of the hihats and get their velocities closer together (velocity compression)?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjedidiah
Because workarounds suck.
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You asked "how do I make changes......?"
Do you really consider a 10-second process to be an unsuitable work-around?
Doesn't seem like a big price to pay to achieve the apparently impossible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
yeah I dont think I would be happy with that workaround if I had to do it for every track.
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Jason,... every track? ....what complexity of midi tracks are you editing that would make you unhappy with such a simple and quick process?
Are you editing multiple tracks at once?
You also still have your original items-based track to revert to.
You can create a folder for midi export/import.It takes seconds.
I'd say you're all spoiled for choice!
If you did have a native choice between "item based" and "track-based" midi editing,you'd still have to enter a menu to choose between them.That too could be an "unhappy" experience,as it would take almost as long,and require you to use your mouse hand
Last edited by viscofisy; 04-19-2012 at 05:22 AM.
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04-19-2012, 05:18 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 447
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I'm talking about a preference in the program. Beyond that, it's midi glueing as a workaround, and then I lose mu custom item coloring and splits between items, which then have to be redone by hand. That sucks.
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04-19-2012, 06:01 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjedidiah
Beyond that, it's midi glueing as a workaround, and then I lose mu custom item coloring and splits between items, which then have to be redone by hand. That sucks.
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Indeed, that sucks EXTREMELY HARD. But some people don't seem to understand that.
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04-19-2012, 06:56 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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This thing still defies final clarification.
Items are just clips. You can still double click on an item or clip and fill the key editor with it, even in a track based editing paradigm, or edit it by itself.
I think various misunderstanding of all that is clouding the issue. Moving to a track based system wouldn't change anything in Reaper now in that regard, if done correctly, it would actually add functionality and improve workflow.
You don't need a preference for that. You just double click a clip, the ME fills up with it (zoom on open), and you edit it.
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04-19-2012, 07:04 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Rafael
Posts: 11,594
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there IS organization in music
Is the op asking something like,
"why do we have books divided up into chapters?"
"Why do cities insist on breaking up streets with intersections?"
"Can't I just KEEP GOING?"
__________________
My religion is all or none.
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04-19-2012, 07:07 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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I'll have to relent on this one. Some people just won't ever get it, the actual request, what it really is.
That's fine though because Schwa gets it. Trust me, when/if he changes it, you'll like it.
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04-19-2012, 07:33 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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I don't like that "if". I much more like that "when".
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04-19-2012, 09:41 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 447
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That's exactly it. If it is implemented like that, I.E. double click and the media item fills the media editor, then great, I'd love that. This doesn't change your workflow people!
BTW ED, thanks for the color toolbar. That sealed the deal on my reaper migration.
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04-19-2012, 10:46 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Down Under
Posts: 396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjedidiah
With item based editing, how do you make changes that affect the whole midi track. For example when I select all of the hihats and get their velocities closer together (velocity compression)?
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I would use a plugin like "JS IZ/MIDI_Velocifier II" etc and/or tweak the MIDI device's "velocity amp" amount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
"Track Based" (in this case) means "being able to edit all the midi data that's on the same track, at the same time", which you can't currently do. It has nothing to do with one big midi item or one big midi clip or anything like that. If this were "track based" you'd be able to marquee select and edit notes across both of the two individual midi clips below, something you cannot do now.
Granted, if you prefer not being able to do that, that's fine... but you should know what people are actually asking for ... which is not what you talk about above. They only want to be able to easily edit what's clearly visible, together.
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I can only explain the way in which I have used "track based editing" before in another DAW and it is *exactly* how I described - like one big MIDI item - extremely bad. Sure there are still "clips" in the track view but once you go into the MIDI editor it looks exactly like one "big clip". This I hate!
I say it again: "I just hope that if it's implemented into Reaper it done *much* better than the way I have used it. Or better still, a big "OFF" switch in the preferences"
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
I want to be able to see all items in the MIDI editor, and NOT WORRY about which one of those items is actually selected for editing...
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That's the problem - I do.
I hate the idea of double clicking a specific item but then not knowing whether I'm editing it or something else. To me, that's totally irrational. This is how "track based editing" worked when I used it and for me, it's unproductive.
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04-19-2012, 11:01 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0rd
This is how "track based editing" worked when I used it and for me, it's unproductive.
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For me, item based MIDI editing is as unproductive as it gets. So what are we goign to do now?
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04-19-2012, 11:04 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
For me, item based MIDI editing is as unproductive as it gets. So what are we goign to do now?
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make it optional. period
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04-19-2012, 11:05 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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But there is NO NEED to make it optional. All there needs to be is having mouse modifiers that would relate to the whole track vs. the current item/s. So then people can set them up however they want.
For crying out loud just go and see how good this works in other hosts. Absolutely no need to make it optional.
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04-19-2012, 11:05 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
"Track Based" (in this case) means "being able to edit all the midi data that's on the same track, at the same time", which you can't currently do. It has nothing to do with one big midi item or one big midi clip or anything like that.
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Indeed. Hopefully yes, this is not about "if" but "when".
Lot of good things have happened regarding midi the last two years, hopefully the devs continues with that.
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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04-19-2012, 11:11 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,972
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It would be cool if i can select multiple items and MIDI editor will extend. This way it would be handy
like in Logic
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04-19-2012, 11:57 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Down Under
Posts: 396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
The selected part is highlighted, just like Reaper, and the other clips are dimmed. The only difference is that you don't have to give focus to non-selected clips to edit or to select the notes in them ... you can just select and edit whatever is on the track, if you choose to even view more than just one clip you double clicked, which is 100% optional.
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Looking at that cap, it's *heaps* better than what I have used. The key being:
a) it's optional (clicking one item only shows that item)
b) the "dimming" of the other MIDI items (when more than one is selected)
c) the clear distinction between multiple items especially the "blank" areas in between.
The DAW I'm talking about is the underwater "ping" one. (Typing its name makes me feel nauseous).
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04-19-2012, 08:45 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere Between 120 and 150 BPM
Posts: 7,968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
For me, item based MIDI editing is as unproductive as it gets. So what are we goign to do now?
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This is easy for me as I can use Cubase to program in, and Reaper for playback.
I like the items for putting projects together with, but that's about it.
Otherwise I use Cubase to create and program, but Reaper for playback.
If they never change it, I can live with that.
As of now it is the most stable ITB Sequencer I have ever used, it's MIDI automation has no noticable delay, and one only needs to use some motorized faders to verify the jitter free movement.
But most of us have several compressors, several emulations, etc.
I will use multiple DAWs, no sense waiting for something to change after it already has been created to switch back to do what everyone else does.
Perhaps this has something to do with it;s incredible stability under pressure.
I mean we have MAC and Fader automations for lights, and many hardware units and effects, and never once a single cough, or gag, and certainly no skipped events like Cubase or the giant bloaters do consistently.
I say keey Reaper 4 for your gig or mastering, and use a workhorse with a different track based workflow.
Even hardware sequencers of Yore can track based edit large amounts of data with a single push, but they don;t have undo......
__________________
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04-19-2012, 09:53 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 174
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Back to the original question
I think track-based editing has been discussed at great length in the past, there are even a number of current threads discussing it, and it is clear there is a gigantic demand for it. I'm sure it would also heavily increase sales. This is why I figure there must be some heavy complications in implementing it. If it were easy to put into Reaper. given all the requests for it I'm sure it would be there. Going back to my original question, what, then, exactly is preventing Reaper from having this, at least as an option? That's what I really want to get at here.
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04-24-2012, 12:27 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dafinga
If it were easy to put into Reaper. given all the requests for it I'm sure it would be there.
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Really? Cuz another feature, don't change the zoom level when switching between multiple MIDI items, would seem easy to implement. But it hasn't been. It seems like MIDI isn't really high on the Reaper developers priority list.
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04-26-2012, 07:38 AM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dafinga
Going back to my original question, what, then, exactly is preventing Reaper from having this, at least as an option? That's what I really want to get at here.
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I'm also only guessing of course, but I'd say one of the major difficulties to implement track-based MIDI editing in REAPER might be 'free item positioning mode'. This 'mess' I created in a few seconds (and I don't know of any other DAW you can do this), if Midi editing is track based and all clips would be activated at once, how would that suppose to work without being highly confusing and not likely to create user errors ?
(don't get me wrong, I like FIPM and often use it, I'm not speaking to abandon it)
[img]http://img713.**************/img713/1406/fipmmidi.png[/img]
Last edited by nofish; 04-26-2012 at 07:47 AM.
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04-26-2012, 09:12 AM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dafinga
I'm sure it would also heavily increase sales.
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No, it won't. Such things will never increase any sales.
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04-26-2012, 09:42 AM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 447
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I would take full track editing over free item positioning any day.
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04-26-2012, 09:48 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,972
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i love to use separate midi items with cc data in free item position mode, so i can slice'n'dice it independently
This feature should stay in Reaper!
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04-26-2012, 10:54 AM
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#40
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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Some clever item border indication will be needed in the piano roll, able to present the individual borders of multiple items. That's for fipm, but same for ordinary multiple lanes and also for MIDI on separate tracks one would like to edit simultaneously. It would need to be done anyway.
In the piano roll you could choose to edit either one of the items (like now) or any combination of them simultaneously. They are distinguishable by their source color or by item color (if you assign some).
Things will get confusing when some of the items in your picture were looped with individual length. Some niftier item loop indication will be necessary for the MIDI editor, so that multiple items looped at different times can make visibly sense.
Maybe we should come up with mockup pics of how the piano roll could possibly present multiple items with unequal borders and loop length which are all "active for editing"?
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