Old 01-13-2018, 11:15 AM   #1
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default Automating Kontakt parameters to relevant MIDI track

Hi,

We have an automation tab in Kontakt from where you can assign several automating slots to several parameters in Kontakt instruments i.e. Playing position, mic position, faders & knobs etc...

But this is only acheiveable in a way that you'll automate that parameter under the track which contains the Kontakt instance, not the MIDI track that routes to it.

I'm trying to make the automation be controlled from under relevant MIDI track that sends MIDI data to the parent VSTi track, not the parent track.

Is this possible at all?

The difficulty is, if you assign the parameter for automation, all those automation lanes just appear stacked under main VST track and this is inconvenient when you want to focus on a single instrument's parameter like playing position etc.

Thanks,

EDIT : If this is not possible, is there any way to rename the automation lane under parent so I can have some distinction of what I'm attempting to automate.

If there are several same automation parameters (i.e. one for viola playing position & one for cello playing position, they're named the same way -staccato/marcato Kontakt 5- so I can't tell which one I'm automating)

Last edited by SymboliC; 01-13-2018 at 11:23 AM.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 11:27 AM   #2
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 17,231
Default

Plug-in parameter automation envelopes can only be created on the track where the plug-in is. So, I agree, it al gets a bit ugly

Would MIDI CC automation work for you? Edit the CC events into the MIDI clips (remember that you can now set up "CC-name maps"). Those CC events will be routed into Kontakt along with the notes and could be mapped to control Kontakt's parameters (but I do not think that the CC-MIDI-Automation is unique for each channel).

Automation lanes can be renamed: the quickest way is off the [Param] menu:


Also, if you can, create the envelopes in some logical order - one instrument at a time. They are displayed in the order in which they are created.
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. Inspired by ...
DarkStar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 12:22 PM   #3
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,116
Default

If you want to use actual Automation lanes rather than the CC lanes in the MIDI editor, you could put ReaControlMIDI on the those individual tracks, automate its sliders, and have them send CCs to the VSTi track, then use MIDI Link to control the actual parameters. You'd still probably want to alias those lanes, I suppose.
ashcat_lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 02:02 PM   #4
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Thank you both for suggesting solutions.

While I can manipulate basic CC data like volume, expression, modulation by using ReaControlMIDI on those MIDI tracks, I'm not able to control Kontakt specific parameters.

Therefore I think the only remaining solution is to rename Automation lanes under the parent track which contains the VST/instance for Kontakt.

I was able to assign alias so after now on I won't at least have difficulties to distinguish which lane corresponds to which parameter of which track.

OTOH though, I'm interested in MIDIlink but it looked quite abstract and confusing to me to get hold of it.

There is a Parameter Modulation/MIDI Link option under Param menu.
But have no idea how to make use of it.

Any further help would be appreciated if this makes what I'm asking possible to achieve.

Other than that, I'll go with renaming lanes for now on.

Thank!
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 04:09 PM   #5
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 11,662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
Thank you both for suggesting solutions.

While I can manipulate basic CC data like volume, expression, modulation by using ReaControlMIDI on those MIDI tracks, I'm not able to control Kontakt specific parameters.

Therefore I think the only remaining solution is to rename Automation lanes under the parent track which contains the VST/instance for Kontakt.

I was able to assign alias so after now on I won't at least have difficulties to distinguish which lane corresponds to which parameter of which track.

OTOH though, I'm interested in MIDIlink but it looked quite abstract and confusing to me to get hold of it.

There is a Parameter Modulation/MIDI Link option under Param menu.
But have no idea how to make use of it.

Any further help would be appreciated if this makes what I'm asking possible to achieve.

Other than that, I'll go with renaming lanes for now on.
Hey Symbolic, why can't you sue the CClanes in your midi tracks. The VSTi track is definitely not the place to do that. CCs in your individual midi tracks should work perfectly.

Heh heh, maybe I'm missing something here?

Also, most library instruments have the CCs scripted in, are these instruments that are not scripted?
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 05:21 PM   #6
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
The VSTi track is definitely not the place to do that. CCs in your individual midi tracks should work perfectly.
Hey Tod,

Thanks for joining. Actually,this is what I'm trying to accomplish.
I mean, when you assign an automation slot to a parameter in Kontakt, you are only allowed to control/manipulate it from VSTi tracks automation lanes. This is what I don't want to have.

I'm trying to manipulate child track(a MIDI track for one of the instruments in VSTi track)'s enveolpe lanes. But I can't see the corresponding parameter in that track. I can only control generic CC data like expression or so.

Maybe I should post some images to address my problem since I'm not a native English speaker, it is sometimes quite hard for me to describe the issue which is already technically complicated by itself.

Below is a picture describing what I'm trying to do.
https://ibb.co/n5Vhgm


This is the envelope window for Kontakt VSTi track.
https://ibb.co/kRxTMm


According to what DarkStar has written, I understand that it is not possible to get this result.

I think ashcat_lt proposed a workaround but I didn't get how to make it work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
CCs in your individual midi tracks should work perfectly.
We have also a MIDI automation option under Automation in Kontakt.
but, would it cause conflicts with common CC values? Like volume, expression, modulation, which are already assigned to several CC values? Plus, MIDI automation only offers 127 slots while an instance of Kontakt with several instruments may need more than that for several hundreds of parameters that can be controlled...

I'm quite confused.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 07:15 PM   #7
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,116
Default

I tried to make a video for you, but after a couple tries doing it small and fast enough to upload to the stash, I gave up. Sorry.

It really is pretty straightforward, though.

Since we don't know for sure which CCs might already be mapped to other things, and you want to keep these other automations discrete and seperate, we have to make sure that any CCs that ReaControlMIDI sends are not in the stream that Kontakt is actually looking at. The best way to do that is with Reaper's MIDI buses. Right click the button that says MIDI in the upper right of the ReaControlMIDI plugin window, go Output|Bus and pick one you're not using for something else. (Edit - probably set the input to the same bus - which should be otherwise empty - in case there's something in the track midi that will mess things up)

Set its channel to the same as the MIDI on the track, just to help keep things straight.

Now, pick any CC you want from the drop down next to the sliders. You can do up to four of them before you need another instance of the plug, just make sure they're all different.

MIDI Link is pretty straight forward. Pick the parameter you want to Link, then tell it which CC on which channel on which bus to listen to. Then it just works.

Show the envelopes for the RCM sliders that you've assigned and go to town!
ashcat_lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 07:37 PM   #8
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 11,662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
We have also a MIDI automation option under Automation in Kontakt.
but, would it cause conflicts with common CC values? Like volume, expression, modulation, which are already assigned to several CC values? Plus, MIDI automation only offers 127 slots while an instance of Kontakt with several instruments may need more than that for several hundreds of parameters that can be controlled...
Hi again Symbolic, now I'm starting to understand, I've never used "Host Automation" so I'm not aware of the limitations. And yeah, regarding conflicts with programmed CCs, that's what I was talking about in my first post.

So all the instruments in one instance of Kontakt are using the same midi channel. Sorry if you've already mentioned this, but what Library(s) are you using?

Most libraries have "Keyswitches" for their various articulations.

Quote:
We have an automation tab in Kontakt from where you can assign several automating slots to several parameters in Kontakt instruments i.e. Playing position, mic position, faders & knobs etc...
You talk about "Playing position" What parameter does that relate to in your nki instrument?

Mic position would deal with "Groups", so are you selecting the groups in the "Group Editor" and then assigning a CC controller to some parameter associated with those groups?

You talk about many hundreds of CC controllers, can you give some kind of a general explanation of what parameters you're talking about. I don't doubt you, I learn new things every day, just like the 'Host Automation", now I have a better understanding of what they are.

I'm also wondering if a Kontakt multi-script might be able to take care of some of this.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 07:55 PM   #9
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Actually this all generates from one point. I'm so stubborn with my-way-of-doing things

In similar threads, I've asked similar quesitons with no exact solutions.

I'm just trying to manage my instruments' realism through automation envelopes which creates all my hassle. =))

Tod,
by playing position I mean, there is a knob in Cinematic Strings for staccato articulation where you can adjust to use staccatissimo/staccato.
It's like on/off.

Or in violas w/ sustained notes there is a knob for high/low position. With one you get more lush feeling and the opposite with the other.

You can drag/assign automation slots of Kontakt on those knobs to manipulate them. This way, they'll show up under VSTi track's automation lane. But when you do this for i.e. 15-20 parameters in one Kontakt instance with multi instruments & multi-outs, it becomes really hard to tell which envelope lane corresponds to which MIDI track(therefor instrument). Aliasing(as DarkStar pointed out) seemed to ease things for me. But it would be more convenient for those parameters' envelopes to appear/sit under corresponding MIDI tracks rather than parenting VSTi's track.

OTOH, I try to avoid "keyswitches" as much as possible for chasing issues + not being able to manipulate them via arrange window in Reaper (ok it's possible to manipulate them via ReaControlMIDI but quite tedious).

I'll give ashcat_lt's suggestion a shot and see if this works for me.

Thanks!
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 08:16 PM   #10
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
I tried to make a video for you, but after a couple tries doing it small and fast enough to upload to the stash, I gave up. Sorry.

It really is pretty straightforward, though.

Since we don't know for sure which CCs might already be mapped to other things, and you want to keep these other automations discrete and seperate, we have to make sure that any CCs that ReaControlMIDI sends are not in the stream that Kontakt is actually looking at. The best way to do that is with Reaper's MIDI buses. Right click the button that says MIDI in the upper right of the ReaControlMIDI plugin window, go Output|Bus and pick one you're not using for something else. (Edit - probably set the input to the same bus - which should be otherwise empty - in case there's something in the track midi that will mess things up)

Set its channel to the same as the MIDI on the track, just to help keep things straight.

Now, pick any CC you want from the drop down next to the sliders. You can do up to four of them before you need another instance of the plug, just make sure they're all different.

MIDI Link is pretty straight forward. Pick the parameter you want to Link, then tell it which CC on which channel on which bus to listen to. Then it just works.

Show the envelopes for the RCM sliders that you've assigned and go to town!
GOOD NEWS,
I was able to assign MIDI automation from within Kontakt and manipulate it via ReaControlMIDI from that MIDI track selecting the correct CC!

BAD NEWS,
MIDI automation slots are limited with CC127(a total of 127 parameters to assign at most) and in cases where you have i.e. 16 instruments in one instance of Kontakt and have 8-9 parameters to be modulated for each instrument, this exceeds the capacity of MIDI Automation slots

Plus, since it is a CC data and value varies between 0-127 you can'T tell i.e. room reverb applied at a specific point in realistic values i.e. -inf or +0.4dB or -7db etc...

Anyway... For now on I'll go with aliasing the parameter name and will keep track of it from parent track's automation lane...

Thanks!
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 08:20 PM   #11
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,116
Default

Assuming you're only using one midi bus for actual midi things (no more than 16 channels worth of instruments), you can automate 15 buses * 16 channels * (127 CCs + pitch bend + mod wheel + etc...) via MIDI Link. Pretty sure that's more than you can assign in Kontakt.
ashcat_lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 08:51 PM   #12
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Assuming you're only using one midi bus for actual midi things (no more than 16 channels worth of instruments), you can automate 15 buses * 16 channels * (127 CCs + pitch bend + mod wheel + etc...) via MIDI Link. Pretty sure that's more than you can assign in Kontakt.
The limitation is not related to ReaControlMIDI... but the Kontakt itself.

There are two types of automation options for 1 instance of Kontakt...
It's either,
1) MIDI automation (where we have 127 slots)
or
2) Host Automation (where we have 500 or so slots)

and it was the 2nd choice I was trying to automate. In that case, yes, there are many slots per Kontakt instance therefor, ReaControlMIDI can keep with it as you've also suggested.

Thinking that I wouldn't use all 127, this could be enough, yet, the other problem is more important. I can'T tell the current value of the parameter by only looking at automation lane. I have to open Kontakt to see what value the parameter is at at which point in the envelope.

In below video the narrator, show the exact process, yet, he doesn't use Multi-out Kontakt but one instance per track/per instrument.
So I can'T tell if this is all about Reaper's Multi-out VSTi structure or it is the same in other DAWS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpM709izbU0

In my case I use Multi-out Kontakt and this makes it all harder.

=(

BTW, he uses Host Automation option in Kontakt which has more slots available and is better to automate "organic" parameters like Hall Reverb level etc. instead of expression-like MIDI CC.
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 09:01 PM   #13
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,116
Default

I'm not sure where we're miscommunicating here. Reaper can automate those "Host automation" slots in all kinds of ways. One of those is by following a specific CC on a specific MIDI bus/channel. ReaControlMIDI can send CCs on any MIDI bus/channel you want. You won't be using Kontakt's "MIDI automation" at all. The CCs coming from RCM are just a convenient way to communicate where the envelope is to the Parameter Modulation on the other track. There are other ways to link parameters across tracks, but they're not much more intuitive.
ashcat_lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 09:35 PM   #14
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
I'm not sure where we're miscommunicating here. Reaper can automate those "Host automation" slots in all kinds of ways. One of those is by following a specific CC on a specific MIDI bus/channel. ReaControlMIDI can send CCs on any MIDI bus/channel you want. You won't be using Kontakt's "MIDI automation" at all. The CCs coming from RCM are just a convenient way to communicate where the envelope is to the Parameter Modulation on the other track. There are other ways to link parameters across tracks, but they're not much more intuitive.
OK,
Here is another video which is more accurate since he uses multi-timbral Kontakt instance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEuiyx6FTPU

Since I haven't used Logic, I can't tell exactly if he is using "MIDI tracks" there. But as you can see, he can assign HOST automation to those MIDI tracks(as I assume) individually.
I can't make this in Reaper. It only creates Host Automation envelopes under Parent track in which Kontakt instance resides. Not under relevant MIDI data track.

Is this DAW related or am I missing something?

I think I've misunderstood your approach and will try it again.
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 09:54 PM   #15
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,116
Default

Yeah, Logic is significantly different. You are really close. You know how to set up the Host Automation in Kontakt. Instead of showing the envelope for those things, use Parameter Modulation to Link them to the MIDI CCs from RCM.
ashcat_lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2018, 10:20 PM   #16
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 11,662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
OK,
Here is another video which is more accurate since he uses multi-timbral Kontakt instance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEuiyx6FTPU

Since I haven't used Logic, I can't tell exactly if he is using "MIDI tracks" there. But as you can see, he can assign HOST automation to those MIDI tracks(as I assume) individually.
I can't make this in Reaper. It only creates Host Automation envelopes under Parent track in which Kontakt instance resides. Not under relevant MIDI data track.

Is this DAW related or am I missing something?

I think I've misunderstood your approach and will try it again.
Yeah, obviously Logic has the host automation available on each track.

I watched both videos and in each case they were manipulating parameters with host automation that could be done just as easy, if not easier with regular CC automation.

I think what ashcat was getting at, is the fact that with 127 CCs and 16 channels, there are 2032 different CCs available.

So I guess you're using the same midi channel for all the instruments in each instance of Kontakt.

Incidentally, have you checked your library manuals to see what CCs they use. I wouldn't be surprised if they already had CCs available for some of these parameters.

I see ashcat has posted while I was typing, and I think he's got the right idea to do what you want to do. I think he's showing how to get Reaper to do somewhat the same way that Logic is doing it.

Anyway, good luck with it.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2018, 06:57 AM   #17
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I think what ashcat was getting at, is the fact that with 127 CCs and 16 channels, there are 2032 different CCs available.

So I guess you're using the same midi channel for all the instruments in each instance of Kontakt.
Hi again,

Just wanted to report that, I did it!
The point I was missing was, despite knowing that it was possible to assign same MIDI CC Automation slot within Kontakt to different knobs(kind of creating groups), I thought that they would all move simultaneously. Presumed too much!

I assigned MIDI CC15 of Kontakt Automation to 2 different instruments' reverb knobs. Then threw ReaControlMIDI on each MIDI track pointing that CC15 within them. Drew different automation for those to test.

Voila! When I played the piece, the two reverb knobs moved independently following their own automation paths.

"MIDI Channel" was the key there. I didn't know that MIDI CC might vary depending on MIDI channel. I'm quite poor with overall MIDI concept.

Sometimes it is the little details and presuming too much that holds you back.

However, there is a final piece left in the puzzle.
Since because it is MIDI values we're manipulating, I can't tell the real-world or audial values by looking at automation lane values. i.e. the CC I have assigned corresponds to Reverb amount in Kontakt instrument which consists of decibel values.
Is there an additional plugin or option in ReaControlMIDI to convert the 128 unit MIDI CC to those?

Thank you both!
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2018, 01:04 PM   #18
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 11,662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
However, there is a final piece left in the puzzle.
Since because it is MIDI values we're manipulating, I can't tell the real-world or audial values by looking at automation lane values. i.e. the CC I have assigned corresponds to Reverb amount in Kontakt instrument which consists of decibel values.
Is there an additional plugin or option in ReaControlMIDI to convert the 128 unit MIDI CC to those?
No I don't think so, but set the CC15 envelope to 50, then check the reverb to see where it's at. With Convolution reverb it will set the "Wet" slider to nearly 0.0dB. A setting of 40 sets the "Wet" slider to -6.0dB.

I'm glad you're getting this straightened out.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 07:40 AM   #19
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
No I don't think so, but set the CC15 envelope to 50, then check the reverb to see where it's at. With Convolution reverb it will set the "Wet" slider to nearly 0.0dB. A setting of 40 sets the "Wet" slider to -6.0dB.

I'm glad you're getting this straightened out.
Thank you Tod.
For now on, I'll do some guessing&referencing when adjusting those values as you pointed out.

Do you think is it too much to ask this as a feature request?

Since, Kontakt is a widely used tool and this kind of workarounds seem like a bit too much of a hassle for me, I'd be glad to get Host Automation in Kontakt sorted out/handled in a better way with Reaper.

How do you guys use automation with MIDI items other than simple CC data like volume/expression? Would it be nice to have a Logic-type of integration in Reaper for Kontakt?

I know that many people use audio tracks or rendered stuff to work with when it comes to automation. But I would really like to have a more convenient way of automation when Kontakt is in question. (at least draggable automation lanes or any other solution).

EDIT : Draggable automation lanes are for cases when we use Multi-timbral Kontakt.

EDIT 2 : I'd like to have EvilDragon's opinon on this. Since he is an experienced user with both Kontakt & Reaper.

Thanks,
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 08:04 AM   #20
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

I have seen that order/rearranging of automation lanes is requested before by DarkStar. This would be handy for multi-timbral VSTi when working with MIDI.

Here is the thread about it.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=138453

Thanks,
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 09:59 AM   #21
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 11,662
Default

Hi Symbolic, I think most folks use regular CCs, I've never seen anyone using host automation like
you are. I started using Kontakt back around 2005 when Kontakt 2 came out, and that's the first
time I'd even seen host automation. I've been using midi since the mid 1980s.

I use a lot of midi and although I occasionally do orchestra stuff, like the wild life videos in my
signature, I'm mainly producing single artist/song writers these days. I primarily use midi for
this, Drums, Bass, Piano, E.Piano, Strings, etc..

I do most of my automation in the Midi Editor using the CC lanes. I actually created several of the
of the instruments I use, and most of the CCs are scripted into each instrument. Most will have
about a half dozen controllers (CCs), but some also have many more, up to 25.

I also automate Kontakts outputs quite a bit, but that will be after I've done most of it in the CC
lanes. For example, when I write strings, I automate them in the Midi Editor where I've got
them up close, and then automate the audio tracks to perfect them. Then I'll put a VCA on them for
overall adjustment.

I record all my midi right in the midi editor, by playing it in with my midi keyboard. I'll also add
and edit most of the CCs at that time.

The main thing about using CCs in the Midi Editor is that the notes are all right there, and it's
much easier to precisely edit the CCs. Many of my instruments have keyswitchs, and they have
to be positioned just right.

Back in the 80s and much of the 90s, using CCs in CC lanes was the only way it could be done, so
I basically grew up with it and am accustomed to it. However, there are many just like you who
would rather use regular envelopes and I can understand that. Eventually Reaper will also have
envelopes for CCs too, without having to use something like ReaControlMidi.

I'm not sure you'll get a lot of support for host automation, but if you do create a FR for it, I'll
vote for it.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 12:17 PM   #22
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Thank you for inputting your thoughts and experiences Tod. I appreciate it since you're far more experienced than me.

However, even Host Automation is specific to Kontakt in this case, I think the instrument libraries have gone quite far for what they offer.

I mean, back in the days (when I was a kid and unaware of all those things =D) it's understandable to manage most of the realism through CC data, yet, some libraries -or most libraries- today, started to offer individual MICs, "playing styles", exceptional articulations, in-built reverb, attack, sustain adjustments and so on which become hard to control through all that CC maze...

I can understand your reasons and in most of the videos I've watched on YouTube professionals do it your way. But, for some people like me, it's a bit distractive to go back and forth in MIDI editor and I usually just use it for note insertion, overall velocities, quantization/humanization and prefer to see the overall adjustments in one place : Arrange window.

Also, I've seen that(if I'm not mistaken) in FruityLoops and Logic, you can manage most of those tiny bits like expression, modulation and so in the main "arranging window" of those DAW's. This way, I can see which instument does what at that specific moment without worrying to open&close MIDI editor.

Think of regular automation for audio files or rendered items. Wouldn't it be inconvenient to have to double click, open the wave editor and do your adjustments/tweaks in there rather than seeing it as a whole as we do it today?

My proposal is just to make the same functionality for MIDI department.
Yes you can do some of the things like expression and volume control with some CC data or to a limit with the help of ReaControlMIDI but when you want to have more control over your libraries in a "packed view" it becomes hard.

I think that's why Kontakt introduced or implemented such features like MIDI & Host Automation.
I'm just saying that it becomes messy when you have multi-timbral VSTi in one track.
If I were to use one instance of Kontakt per instrument, I wouldn'T need that flexibility since the corresponding and related MIDI lanes would all stack up under it in the arrange window in Reaper.

This is more related to Reaper's structure as I understand from the info I gathered up to now.

DarkStar's request of that feature -> ability to reorder/drag automation lanes. That would also solve most of my problem with multi-timbral VSTi's automation lanes. As of now, when you create an automation lane for one instrument in that Kontakt instance which consists of several instruments, it just pops-up sticked to that Kontakt track, not the instruments MIDI track. It's not a very nice way to keep your track view organized. However, you can do this in Logic if I'm not mistaken as ashcat_lt also confirmed a couple posts above.

As a professional, you may find it a bit cheesy to lay down all string sections with a "full ensemble" patch and then try to tweak cello, viola mics via MIDI/Host Automation which Kontakt & Sample library offers but this comes handy when you quickly want to build ideas instead of going into deeper details, though you can even have more control even if you go deeper. i.e. There are 4-5 mic positions which can be automated even for a single string instrument in some sample libraries.

Anyway...
At least now I can solve my problem with a couple more mouse clicks with addition of a plugin and renaming functions and so...
maybe some day it will get easier...

Cheers,
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 12:25 PM   #23
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I'm not sure you'll get a lot of support for host automation, but if you do create a FR for it, I'll
vote for it.
When it comes to creating FRs I'm quite timid for the reason that I'm a newbie and unsure if the feature is even usable or not.

But I'd appreciate it if you can only +1 DarkStar's thread in the above post that I've referred to.
It's an acceptable and sufficient solution for me as well.

Cheers,
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 02:45 PM   #24
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 11,662
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SymboliC View Post
When it comes to creating FRs I'm quite timid for the reason that I'm a newbie and unsure if the feature is even usable or not.

But I'd appreciate it if you can only +1 DarkStar's thread in the above post that I've referred to.
It's an acceptable and sufficient solution for me as well.

Cheers,
I'm sorry Symbolic, but I don't really know enough about host automation to post it. It appears that Logic seems to have it but how is it implemented?

I've never tried Kontakt's Host Automation in in Reaper but I just checked it out and I see what you're getting at. Actually it appears to be more of a Kontakt thing and not a Reaper thing.

If the way that Kontakt deals with the Host Automation is by adding an envelope to the Kotakt VSTi, how is Reaper going to deal with it?

Can you explain any of this to me?
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 03:27 PM   #25
ashcat_lt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,116
Default

Kontakt's Host Automation is just a way to "expose" parameters inside the plugin to the DAW so that it can automate them. Most plugins just have whatever parameters they think are important to automate available and you can't really change it. That would be extremely limiting with Kontakt because it does so many different things. So they gave it a way for YOU to decide which ones are there. What your DAW does with that is completely up to it.

In Reaper, once those parameters are "exposed" they're available for everything that Reaper can do with automatable parameters. This includes envelopes, Learn, Parameter Modulation, linking and etc.

Logic seems to have a dedicated MIDI track type which sends to a dedicated Instrument track type. You can't even see the instrument track in what we would call the Arrange view, but it's automatable parameters apparently can show up as envelopes on the MIDI tracks that feed them. That's not at all how Reaper works. We have universal tracks that can be any or all of those things, but that also means that a track sending to another track doesn't know or care what's happening on that other track and it certainly can't know what parameters are available for Automation on that other track.

If Reaper's Automation was more like Control Voltage where we it's just another item on a track that you can route to whatever parameter you want, we'd be a lot closer. The devs don't seem particularly interested in going that way, and the question (raise above) of having actually useful values displayed on those tracks is one of the complications of that approach that I haven't yet considered.
ashcat_lt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 06:09 PM   #26
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I'm sorry Symbolic, but I don't really know enough about host automation to post it.
Hi Tod,

Indeed, I've already given up for the "Host Automation" part.
But if you ask how DarkStar's FR would contribute to that, tomorrow I'll take a screenshot of my project and will explain it much better.

Yes, now alternatively I can accomplish managing those parameters via CC, thanks to you guys, yet, IT ISN'T easier or done with less steps.

Anyway...
As I said before, for the time being, I gave up "complete Host Automation support" and probably ashcat_lt explained it above how it would be a counterproductive feature considering the Reaper's architecture if I didn't get it wrong.

Cheers,
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2018, 06:32 PM   #27
SymboliC
Human being with feelings
 
SymboliC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: istanbul
Posts: 160
Default

Hi Tod,
Instead of waiting for tomorrow, I created a quick setup...
Now, looking at this, can you tell which envelope belongs to which instrument?



Ok, say, I did PARAM ALIAS as DarkStar previously suggested... What about vertical scrollings & matching the tracks with relevant automation lanes?
And this is only consisted of 4-5 instruments with 1 parameter for each...
Think that you have 14-16 instruments in one instance of Kontakt with 2-3 parameters for each to adjust... 14*3 = 42 Automation lanes... And they all pile up under Main track... Which would cause you to keep scrolling downwards and upwards when you'd like to adjust i.e. the 7th instruments paremeters.

And to avoid this, I used you guys' way BUT with lots of steps :
* Inserting a ReaControlMIDI for each MIDI track (this alone makes 22 clicks or more)
* Defining CC numbers within Kontakt MIDI Automation panel,
* Matching correct CC numbers within each ReaControlMIDI,
etc etc...
Too many clicks
Also, if you need more than 5 parameters to be controlled per instrument, you also need to insert an additional ReaControlMIDI for that MIDI track...

But,
If we were at least able to arrange/drag those automation lanes to below their matching instrument's MIDI track everything would be solved and this would be a complete support for Host Automation, too.

This is it. I don't know if I can explain the efficiency of this better.

There is a huge exception here : As I replied your post before, if you're not tweaking anything in Kontakt instruments other than expression, volume and modulation, this whole thing will seem useless for you, which is understandable.

Cheers,
__________________
...and creativity surrendered to technical difficulties.
SymboliC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.