Old 01-12-2018, 08:59 PM   #1
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Default macOS builds -- ICC (normal) vs LLVM/clang

macOS pre-releases on landoleet now have both traditional ICC builds and LLVM/clang builds for comparison purposes, if you macOS users could do some testing and performance comparisons that would be great. Discuss here!

The -clang versions do not have QuickTime video support (which is ancient and deprecated by Apple), and do not currently include PPC bridging support.

The biggest benefit of the -clang version is that it can be made using a newer macOS SDK, which allows OpenGL 3.2 to be used, which should improve the video playback performance (the Video Window, that is) as well as possibly the drawing performance of plug-ins that use OpenGL

Last edited by Justin; 01-13-2018 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:17 AM   #2
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Wow, this sounds great, thanks Justin !
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:47 AM   #3
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Very very awesome thankyou Justin.., this makes me extremely happy.. I'll be testing as best I can.

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Old 01-13-2018, 01:56 AM   #4
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Just installed the clang version.

I wonder if this version also would improve "global" GUI performance in Reaper,
so more smoothness when moving track volume faders, dragging items, dragging midi notes, zooming , etc.

OSX 10.13.2.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:16 AM   #5
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Just tried the project I'm working on, and definitely have better fps on playhead and meters. Lag behind cursor when dragging a time selection without snap looks unchanged though (even though fps is improved on drawing out the selection itself).

Waves GUI's were the only slightly glitchy ones I have (VST3), and all those issues look to be resolved now (white outlines when turning knobs, and mouse drag behaviour when doing so kind of stiff and off).

Definite progress!

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Last edited by Judders; 01-13-2018 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:20 AM   #6
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I will test on snow leopard.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Just tried the project I'm working on, and definitely have better fps on playhead and meters. Lag behind cursor when dragging a time selection without snap looks unchanged though (even though fps is improved on drawing out the selection itself).

Waves GUI's were the only slightly glitchy ones I have (VST3), and all those issues look to be resolved now (white outlines when turning knobs, and mouse drag behaviour when doing so kind of stiff and off).

Definite progress!

OS 10.13.2
iMac retina 5k 27" Late 2015
3.2GHz Intel Core i5
2GB VRAM
16GB RAM
Wow, that's just great !
Thanks Judders, for this report.
I will some testing today, on my macbook retina 2015, with Dell monitor attached as main screen.
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:32 AM   #8
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Tried the clang builds and I am not seeing any improvement with the playhead fps, movement is still poor and not smooth at all compared to logic pro x.., I am just not sure if I see an improvement in the resizing of the tracks and mixer etc either..?, minimal?.

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Old 01-13-2018, 05:42 AM   #9
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I think (after reading many posts regarding DAW GUI performance on mac-retinas with 10.13 installed), this has badly enough more to do with the combination retina mac and OSX 10.12 / 10.13 than with Reaper.

EDIT:
https://developer.apple.com/metal/

Wondering if this new Metal 2 also would enhance DAW GUI performance, when it could be implemented in DAW software.
(assuming you have a mac that supports Metal 2).

Last edited by vanhaze; 01-13-2018 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 06:50 AM   #10
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Sorry, I've edited my original post slightly to make it more clear -- the video performance improvement refers to the Video Window only. The arrange/etc drawing performance should be similar to the ICC build.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:10 AM   #11
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Thanks Justin !
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:16 AM   #12
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Understood.. but me sad now.

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Old 01-13-2018, 11:58 AM   #13
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Tested a ReaPlugs-heavy project on two macs:

1) C2D 10.6.8 iMac: 31% CPU ICC, 32% CPU Clang
2) i7 10.13.2 mid-2014 RMBP: 7% CPU ICC, 7.5% CPU Clang

Getting an evaluation of a newer ICC to see if it helps things too, but in general those numbers seem to be pretty decent anyway.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:22 PM   #14
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do you have a test session for us?

I have 2011 27" imac, 2560x1440 12GB RAM, MacOS 10.10.5 and 2015 15" MBP Retina, 16GB RAM, 2880x1800, MacOS 10.12.6
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicSounds View Post
do you have a test session for us?

I have 2011 27" imac, 2560x1440 12GB RAM, MacOS 10.10.5 and 2015 15" MBP Retina, 16GB RAM, 2880x1800, MacOS 10.12.6
It would be more meaningful if you made your own based on real-world use or so...
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Old 01-14-2018, 03:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Sorry, I've edited my original post slightly to make it more clear -- the video performance improvement refers to the Video Window only. The arrange/etc drawing performance should be similar to the ICC build.
I'm not discounting the possibility that expectation bias has driven me crazy, but I'm sure I saw a slight difference.

I'll try to upload video tomorrow, after first forwarding it to my psychiatrist...
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:25 AM   #17
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Hi Justin,


Posting my report in the appropriate thread.


I have done some extensive testing with the clang pre release with different types of videos..some pro res, some, H264, Some DNX HD, some MJPEG, MKVs, MOVs, MP4s etc with different decoder settings (VLC, AV Foundation, QT, FFMPEG). One good thing is that the shearing is completely gone. The video playback is generally good. But I feel the general graphics performance has taken a hit. Here are the issues I have with the clang version

1. Forward a bit and rewind a bit definitely doesn't refresh the videos as it use to do in the older versions (Though I had the shearing issue earlier, forward a bit and rewind a bit worked perfectly with smooth video refreshing. It was almost like fast forwarding a tape deck. Thats the kind of performance I got earlier).

2. The entire graphics performance seems to be slowing things down. This is very obvious when "zoomed in " in the timeline. When I perform actions like zooming in and zooming out in the edit window while playback, the video stops for a few seconds and then resumes play though the playback isnt stopped. Hitting save while playback is also making the video stop for a few seconds before resuming play again.

3. When I tried to search through actions list the displaying of search results was slow which was never a case with previous versions of reaper.

All these could be related to the graphics issue or it could be completely different like you said. I will leave that to you since you are the best person to judge that.

I have linked a screen recording here about this where you will see how slow the searches appear in the actions window.This might help you to better identify the issue at hand.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/0phvpo2qmq...eaper.mov?dl=0


CPU Usage : CPU usage is very low while general playback, on a heavy project (more than 85 tracks with audio material for over an hour continuously in the timeline) with a lot of take fx and plugins, reaper only uses around 8 percent of CPU. But while performing actions like forward a bit, rewind a bit or zooming out and zooming in or hitting save or resizing a plugin window or any other window (including the performance meter window) the CPU usage spikes more than 35 percent (not only in a heavy project but also in an almost blank project only with one video item) and thats when the video freezes for more than a few seconds and then resumes playback. When the normal playback resumes the CPU usage drops down back to 8 %. These things never happened to me on older versions running the same projects.

What do you think about this ? Could this be graphics related ?
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Old 01-15-2018, 03:19 AM   #18
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FWIW, here are some test results:

Intel Core i7-7700 3.60 GHz, Win10 Pro x64, Arturia AudioFuse (44.1 kHz, 128 samples)

reaper571pre12a-install.exe: 1.76% avg
reaper571pre12a-vs13-install.exe: 2.06% avg
reaper571pre12a_x64-install.exe: 1.95% avg
reaper571pre12a-vs13_x64-install.exe 2.25% avg

Intel Core i5-5257U 2.70 GHz, macOS 10.13.2, built-in audio (44.1 kHz, 512 samples)

reaper571pre12a_i386.dmg: 9.81% avg
reaper571pre12a-clang_i386.dmg: 11.34% avg
reaper571pre12a_x86_64.dmg: 11.00%
reaper571pre12a-clang_x86_64.dmg: 10.76%
Attached Files
File Type: rpp test.rpp (27.5 KB, 33 views)

Last edited by Tale; 01-16-2018 at 01:31 AM. Reason: Added subtype to Core i5, audio interface
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Old 01-15-2018, 06:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tale View Post
FWIW, here are some test results:

Intel Core i7-7700 3.60 GHz, Win10 Pro x64

reaper571pre12a-install.exe: 1.76% avg
reaper571pre12a-vs13-install.exe: 2.06% avg
reaper571pre12a_x64-install.exe: 1.95% avg
reaper571pre12a-vs13_x64-install.exe 2.25% avg

Intel Core i5 2.7 GHz, macOS 10.13.2

reaper571pre12a_i386.dmg: 9.81% avg
reaper571pre12a-clang_i386.dmg: 11.34% avg
reaper571pre12a_x86_64.dmg: 11.00%
reaper571pre12a-clang_x86_64.dmg: 10.76%
Wow, that's a rather big difference between Windows and OSX ...
Many thanks Tale !
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:11 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhaze View Post
Wow, that's a rather big difference between Windows and OSX ...
Yeah... However, I guess this is kinda apples and oranges, because the Windows machine is a 3.60 GHz Core i7 (4 cores/8 threads), and the MacBook is "only" a 2.70 GHz Core i5 (2 cores/4 threads).
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Old 01-15-2018, 09:46 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Yeah... However, I guess this is kinda apples and oranges, because the Windows machine is a 3.60 GHz Core i7 (4 cores/8 threads), and the MacBook is "only" a 2.70 GHz Core i5 (2 cores/4 threads).

Yes very different hardware.., would be nice to see the result of macOS on your i7 also.

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Old 01-15-2018, 10:42 AM   #22
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I've checked a few projects here between them, and the clang build is ~0.5% higher cpu load on average for me. 3.5ghz i5.

I tried one project on a 2.3ghz i7 macbook pro, and the clang version was noticeably worse. Large project at 67% peak for ICC and 75.5% with clang and occasional dropouts.

I don't see any differences in video window performance, so I assume this isn't implemented yet?
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:16 AM   #23
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Looks like the next (or next after that) macOS clang build will be ICC v18, which should be interesting Waiting on the license key to come in the mail...
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:19 AM   #24
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Thx for the info Justin, Anxious !
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:47 AM   #25
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Quote:
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Looks like the next (or next after that) macOS clang build will be ICC v18, which should be interesting Waiting on the license key to come in the mail...
Whats ICCv18 ? Can you pls explain ?
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:06 AM   #26
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Quote:
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Whats ICCv18 ? Can you pls explain ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_C%2B%2B_Compiler
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:07 AM   #27
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Thank you. So does that mean we can expect a better performance in a mac ?
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:30 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Thank you. So does that mean we can expect a better performance in a mac ?
I guess that is the question
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:31 AM   #29
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Quote:
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I guess that is the question
Wow!! really looking forward...
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:49 AM   #30
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Just don't hold your breath too much. This is all experimentation... clang turned out not to be much of an improvement as far as CPU usage goes.
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:56 AM   #31
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Quote:
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Just don't hold your breath too much. This is all experimentation... clang turned out not to be much of an improvement as far as CPU usage goes.
But it sorted out video issues !!! I am optimistic ..
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:47 PM   #32
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Not all of them, as you mentioned.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:08 PM   #33
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Not all of them, as you mentioned.
Yes... But for me the biggest problem is gone. I have been using the Clang version from the day of release extensively with a lot of tracks. Though there are little issues like video seeking not being instant while forward a bit and rewind a bit... Overall I actually had a good experience working with this version. I have full confidence on the developers and I am sure they will find a way to iron out those small issues. As I said I am optimistic. ������

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Old 01-17-2018, 03:31 PM   #34
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a smallish project that in 4.71 pre10 (x64 mac )
yields RT 32.9
cpu 4.9
264 mb
15 fx @ 4.2 %

latest clang pre 12 seems to not show any difference.

on a 2012 mac mini i7 quad 2.3, 16gb, macOS 10.12.6
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:31 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Just don't hold your breath too much. This is all experimentation... clang turned out not to be much of an improvement as far as CPU usage goes.
ICC 18 should be about the same as the current release builds in speed, maybe slightly faster, but with the newer macOS SDKs (allowing OpenGL 3.2 which improved video playback performance on large displays). So the best of both worlds, but still only slightly faster than the clang build.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:39 PM   #36
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Searching in the Action List is slower in the clang and icc18 builds (it freezes for a bit). It also eats letters sometimes. For example typing "attach" often results in "atach" instead.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:51 PM   #37
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Thx for chiming in cfiliion,

You describe my very same issue very well.
I am "glad" i am not the only one.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:51 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfillion View Post
Searching in the Action List is slower in the clang and icc18 builds (it freezes for a bit). It also eats letters sometimes. For example typing "attach" often results in "atach" instead.
The same thing happens to me in this version. I hope this gets fixed. But apart from this everything is very smooth for me. Ever since the Clang version came out its been very solid for me.
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Old 01-22-2018, 01:49 AM   #39
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FWIW, here's another round, using the same simplistic test project:

Intel Core i5-5257U 2.70 GHz, macOS 10.13.2, built-in audio (44.1 kHz, 512 samples)

reaper571pre13_i386.dmg: 9.95% avg
reaper571pre13-icc18_i386.dmg: 11.15% avg
reaper571pre13_x86_64.dmg: 11.03% avg
reaper571pre13-icc18_x86_64.dmg: 10.79% avg
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