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Old 11-21-2021, 06:13 PM   #1
judelaw
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Default Check synchronisation when recording in Reaper

Good evening everyone!

I've just made myself a new audio setup with separate DAC and ADC that seems to work good. One thing I have left to check is the timing in reaper :

It happened to me a long time ago, when I was tracking myself singing, that reaper would record the track with either latency or the opposite, meaning that each time I finished singing the song I had to shift the new track I had just recorded right or left (I don't remember) for it to match more or less with the instrumental track.

So I'm wondering if there is a way in reaper to check the timing of what you record. I've just recorded myself clapping in front of the microphone following the hit- hat (charleston) of the music, it seems fine, more or less synchronized but I'd like to make sure it's synchronized.
I would be pleased if anyone knew how to check that

Ps: I'm using an analog monitoring solution just in case someone wonders.

Thank you.
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Old 11-21-2021, 07:14 PM   #2
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As usual, that was too easy... I haven't touched anything but know I have about 250/300 milliseconds of "reverse latency" It's huge, and even the smallest amount wouldn't be ok for me.

the track on the top is the music (instruments)
The track on the bottom is me getting my monitoring headphones close to the microphone (but not too close, in order to avoid Larsen effect).

https://i.ibb.co/3kCGFB9/opposite-latency.png

Last edited by judelaw; 11-21-2021 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 11-21-2021, 07:31 PM   #3
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I recorded the project, restarted reaper, and now it's back to normal, the huge reverse latency is gone. Strange...

I need to be sure I'm synchronized all the time. My workflow consists in recording myself singing the song fifty or a hundred times within a few days. Then in the end I put the best parts of what I sang together. I don't like too much to playback each time the track I just recorded. And it's not good to synchronize in post, it's not perfect.

Last edited by judelaw; 11-21-2021 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 11-21-2021, 11:58 PM   #4
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I could be wrong, but it sounds like you have issues with your I/O setup.

Might be worth considering going back to basics.

1. Exactly what is your new hardware & do you have specific drivers for it (e.g. & ideally, asio)

2. Have you read & implemented the system optimisations explained in the downloadable e-document "Glitch Free"

3. Have you downloaded & run resplendence.com`s latency checker.

I know this sounds like I am treating you like a newbie, but sometimes it really does help to remind ourselves of the obvious.

EDIT: Forgot to ask what (if any) plugins you are using & how you are monitoring your performance as you do it. All of these will have a bearing on latency.
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Old 11-22-2021, 04:04 AM   #5
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Any half-decent ASIO driver is reporting its latency back to Reaper - which means if you have preferences>audio>recording>use audio driver reported latency enabled everything should be in sync automatically. If it's not you can enter a manual offset.

I'd swear the was a wiki article on it but I can't find it so here's a youtube, fortunately pretty short



And yeah plugins can put latency out of whack too, but I think with default settings this is also automatically compensated for.
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Old 11-22-2021, 07:03 AM   #6
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Win7 x64 old computer.
Analog monitoring.
Recording in 24bit 48khz.
No drivers installed.
Reaper with preferences>audio>recording>use audio driver reported latency : enabled.

DAC part of the setup : GA-990XA-UD3 Motherboard toslink output to Topping e30. Then the Topping e30 is sending a line level signal via its stereo RCA output to an analog amp.

ADC part of the setup : Microphone, then Analog preamp sending a mono line level signal to the right channel rca input of a wondom-aa-as41115-adc. The wondom-aa-as41115-adc is then sending the signal via toslink to a hifime-ur23-spdif-optical-to-usb-converter that connects to my pc usb port.

Gear used :
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-w...k-p-14486.html

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/devic...z-p-14430.html

https://hifimediy.com/product/hifime...usb-converter/

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard...0XA-UD3-rev-1x
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Old 11-22-2021, 07:12 AM   #7
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I'm not surprised you are having latency issues - you're not using the same device for input & output & you've got kind of a convoluted conversion chain both ways.
Are the digital devices synced together so that they are sharing the same clock source?
Have you done a loopback test?

You might be able to set your input & output latency manually and get in the right ballpark, but you'd be better off using a device with asio drivers that Reaper has more chance of compensating for automatically.
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Old 11-22-2021, 07:33 AM   #8
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Yep, an audio interface has everything you need in a single box and a driver that takes care of keeping things in sync. Being so attached to this weird cable spaghetti is hella weird, not gonna lie.
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Old 11-22-2021, 07:56 AM   #9
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Day 1 new DAW/interface calibrations:
1. Set low latency for live sound work. (Only if you're doing live sound work!) Or set high for post work.
2. Calibrate the recorded audio latency offset for the block size(s) and sample rates you need to use. (Determined in #1)

For #2, the calibration is in Reaper Preferences/Audio/Recording page. If the driver reported offset is not correct, add a manual offset or only use a manual offset. Dial it in with a loopback test run.

This is intended to be a required setup thing. Default values and the driver reported offset might be close out of the box but this isn't supposed to be a mystery that gets ignored.
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Old 11-22-2021, 08:51 AM   #10
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It's reverse latency in this case, not latency. Everything is set to 24bit 48khz.
I'm never doing any live, I just add my singing to already made instrumental tracks.

"This is intended to be a required setup thing. Default values and the driver reported offset might be close out of the box but this isn't supposed to be a mystery that gets ignored."

I might give it a try with interfaces again, but this setup has the advantage of good and parasite free sound quality for both listening and recording. It's fully optical. No parasites from the pc at all.

Everyone on forums have the same answer to any of my questions : Get a modern computer with an up to date win10 OS and an audio interface, but I don't like win10 and It would cost a lot to buy all that.
I actually have a win7 pc that would put to shame many if not all computers, as it doesn't make any noise whatsoever, it's dead silent in the room, with two screens, no annoyance at all. Perfect in every aspect.
Also it's always the same : people on forums tell you : Just get an interface and you'll be free of any kind of annoyance, but I'm really not sure that's true. And btw one annoyance is enough to make it bad, cracks, parasites, bsods, win10 update that screws things, you name it. Actually here is one guy who has the issue I'm currently having and guess what? He's using a praised Scarlett 2i2 : https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=158131

Ok I will try the reaper offset, calibration, low latency settings, and all that. I definitely have to get familiar with that.
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Old 11-22-2021, 08:55 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judelaw View Post
It's reverse latency in this case, not latency.
Sure. It can be off either way if the driver reported value isn't perfect. Hence the ability to enter a positive offset.

If you never do live work, keep your block size set high (eg. 512 or 1024 samples). Calibrate your recorded audio offset for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judelaw View Post
people on forums tell you : Just get an interface and you'll be free of any kind of annoyance
Well, you kind of have to have an audio interface to begin with if you even want to listen to audio from a computer... There will at least be one built into your logic board to connect to.

What was probably meant by that is that you need an audio interface with a lower baseline latency itself for live sound work. That leads to achieving your required target latency with a larger block size. That leads to using more plugins and higher latency plugins live. This ONLY applies to running live sound or doing live performance through the system. Most of the USB connecting interfaces will be on the slower side and force you to dial down the block size to hit required low latency for live work. Limiting your system performance and abilities. The firewire and thunderbolt models and a few pci connecting (sound card) models will have lower baseline latency.

Last edited by serr; 11-22-2021 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 11-22-2021, 09:09 AM   #12
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i still use PCs running xp & win 7 & they are fine for Reaper & other music tasks - i think the only real benefits of win 10 are internet security and compatibility with newer products.

I would definitely do a few loopback tests if i were you, i've got a sneaky feeling that you might get differing results each time with the set-up you've described, but hopefully not.
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Old 11-22-2021, 09:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judelaw View Post
Actually here is one guy who has the issue I'm currently having and guess what? He's using a praised Scarlett 2i2 : https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=158131
There's no way you'll be a whole second off using a dedicated ASIO driver. This guy vanished without updating the thread - my guess he never used a proper driver to start with. Neglecting to use a correct driver is a surprisingly common user error.

I think packaging all the interfaces in a blank cardboard boxes with only a giant red "DOWNLOAD AND USE OUR GODDAM ASIO DRIVER FIRST" on them would slice the DAW forums traffic in half. Like, seriously, they should start doing that, right now.
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Old 11-22-2021, 09:34 AM   #14
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Treating the two big DAW setup and calibration steps as a rule instead of a suggestion goes a long way. It isn't going to do it for you! Controls are right there.
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Old 11-22-2021, 04:41 PM   #15
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where do I set the block size? Does the block size concern both the DAC and ADC or only the DAC? Should I install the topping e30 driver ? A generic Asio driver ?

For what I understand, a big block size is good for stability. It's only bad for latency if you're doing live, or if you're monitoring yourself singing with a digital monitoring setup. Although I've been making music for decades first with acid then reaper, I'm quite a beginner.

Last edited by judelaw; 11-23-2021 at 02:16 AM.
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Old 11-23-2021, 02:22 AM   #16
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Btw, the first thing is to be able to check easily enough on a regular basis when there is or not such "reverse latency". I fear most recording myself thinking there is none, and then find out later that there is a tiny bit and not knowing how much I should compensate for.

I need to get the pattern of that issue prior to try to fix it with drivers, compensation and such. First analyze the situation, then find what can be or cannot be done. That was my first question : "How do I check the reverse latency".
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Old 11-23-2021, 03:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judelaw View Post
"reverse latency"
You hear the notes before they were actually played?

WITCHCRAFT!
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Old 11-23-2021, 08:34 AM   #18
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If your setup is so misbegotten it breaks causality it's time to step back. Or maybe forward, not sure.
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Old 11-23-2021, 09:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxdembo View Post
You hear the notes before they were actually played?
WITCHCRAFT!
No once my voice recorded on a track I hear my voice before it should be played.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeekat View Post
If your setup is so misbegotten it breaks causality it's time to step back. Or maybe forward, not sure.
"back or forward", that's what I'm trying to determine. I'm using an old computer, with 2 ssd and 3 hard disks, and also windows seven. That's three things that might prevent a new interface to work properly, so I want to give a chance to this setup.
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Old 11-23-2021, 09:33 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judelaw View Post
where do I set the block size?
1st choice is to run the system from the Reaper control panel in Reaper Preferences/Audio/Device page. Tick the box to enable this control. Untick the box to disable this control to use a 3rd party control panel option.
If something doesn't play nice or required a proprietary control panel, that's what the option to disable control from Reaper is all about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judelaw View Post
Does the block size concern both the DAC and ADC or only the DAC?
It's the data interval (in samples) that you give the computer to process everything before it hits the output. That translates to: It's the latency control. Your audio interface will have a baseline latency with its I/O. The DA and AD stages in your interface or external will have their internal latency. Your full latency will be the hardware + the block size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by judelaw View Post
Should I install the topping e30 driver ? A generic Asio driver ?
Well, if you want the computer to see and talk to the hardware...

Quote:
Originally Posted by judelaw View Post
For what I understand, a big block size is good for stability. It's only bad for latency if you're doing live, or if you're monitoring yourself singing with a digital monitoring setup. Although I've been making music for decades first with acid then reaper, I'm quite a beginner.
Correct! It only applies to live sound through the computer. When you are listening to the live real here and now world and the output from the computer at the same time and thus need to not hear a lag between them. When you are only listening to the output from the computer, low latency is a moot point.

When you use an interface that has a low latency mixer built in, you can use that built in mixer to monitor live inputs for overdubbing. Eliminating the need to go to live sound mode with the DAW and put your computer on blast with a low block size. When you really need live sound or to perform through instrument or fx plugins, then you need low latency for live sound.
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Old 11-23-2021, 10:36 AM   #21
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Thanks! I don't have an interface though, I have a dac and an adc.

"Well, if you want the computer to see and talk to the hardware..."
The computer sees it without installing any driver.
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Old 11-23-2021, 12:06 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Thanks! I don't have an interface though, I have a dac and an adc.
these are interfaces (the motherboard one & the wondom). i don't understand why you consider them not to be?
The main problem you have is that you are effectively using two half interfaces rather than one whole one, imo.

You don't really need to worry about block size if you aren't concerned with monitoring through the computer, as Serr says.

Have you done the loopback tests?
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Old 11-23-2021, 12:52 PM   #23
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How do I do the loopback tests?
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Old 11-23-2021, 01:31 PM   #24
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZcX...el=REAPERMania
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Old 11-23-2021, 02:25 PM   #25
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I saw it mentioned but not confirmed about the clock source. That will be vital to setup and confirm before you even get into loopback testing. What is the clock source and are the other devices (which aren't the clock source) synced to the clock source device?
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Old 11-26-2021, 04:01 PM   #26
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Everything is set at 24bit 48khz, and supposed to work with 24bit 48khz, is it what you mean by "clock source"?

I've done the loopback test with the kick, and something strange happens, I record one track, then another without changing settings, but the kick is never recorded at the same position : https://i.ibb.co/w78kZr5/opposite-latency2.png

Last edited by judelaw; 11-26-2021 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 11-26-2021, 07:40 PM   #27
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I would be happy to set an "input manual offset" but since it's changing all the time...

Apparently some call it "unpredictable offset"...

Last edited by judelaw; 11-26-2021 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 11-26-2021, 09:14 PM   #28
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Here under the video Domzy gave me, someone has the same problem :

"I tried this on my system. Unfortunately the latency is different every time when I record with the audio driver reported latency turned off. I took consecutive 4 records and the gap was 574, 571, 562, 583, etc. Any suggestion for this?"

edit : And someone else :

"Hi!
I have an issue with my interface (a Behringer U-Phoria UMC22) that every time I do this process I get a slightly different result. Even on e.g. two consequent records of Track 1 sent to Track 2, I'll get different value for the offset. Moreover, when I change the requested block size, the recording is then completely off. Any ideas?"
Someone answered him : "I think this is happening to everyone but no one is actually checking after "fixing it" the first time."

And again :
"What I always find so frustrating is that the samples of latency are never consistent.
answers :
"How many tracks are recording at the same time? Are there any effects active on the recording track?"
"Can't figure this out myself. Have you had any luck correcting this issue?"

Last edited by judelaw; 11-26-2021 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 11-26-2021, 09:27 PM   #29
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I'm not going to quote everything, but it seems to be a general problem :

"i tried the loopback test but whenever I change the buffer size it again doesn't line up. In other words I would need a custom setting for every buffer size.
Additionally the latency seems to vary 3 buffers with every recording.
1) Does anyone have the same problem?
2) Any ideas to fix that?
It seems to me that it might maybe be a driver issue, where the interface is always reporting a different latency to Reaper.
3) Could that be possible?
Gear used:
Windows 10 ; Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 2nd Gen
Anyway thanks for the great video!"
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Old 11-27-2021, 01:55 AM   #30
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Latency can drift in some drivers, but being a dozen or two samples off (or even much more) is not perceptible. 10 samples @44.1k is like 0.2ms.
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Old 11-27-2021, 10:56 AM   #31
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Latency doesn't drift. Something else is going on here...

Think about how well the data connection would work if the timing was variable. You wouldn't ever get audio through!

First sanity check: When you run a loopback test to determine the actual baseline lag of your hardware, make sure you first untick the box to use the driver reported latency! Otherwise it's a "comedy of errors" scenario with Reaper moving the recorded test sample via that feature. This one is REAL easy to do and can have you losing your mind pretty quickly!

Obviously a changing block size will directly change the latency.*** Make sure you're not doing that to yourself. Different sample rates too. One thing I found was that using the driver reported latency and adding an offset to it normalized changing sample rates and let me keep the same offset value. Using only manual control would have led to a different value for each sample rate.

If the audio interface is truly disconnecting often and coming back with a different baseline latency and you can go through the steps and verify no missteps with settings, that sounds like electronical failure. Do a sanity check with another audio interface. Even the lowly one built into your computer logic board. If some product's driver is crashing and causing this... that's still classified as "broken". They need to deliver the software bits and they need to work.


*** Changing block size comment:
How are you controlling your connected audio interface? Using the Reaper control panel (Preferences/Audio/Device page) with the box next to block size ticked? Or disabling control from Reaper (untick that box) and using your OS utility or a 3rd party?
If you are using OS or 3rd party control, make sure the block size isn't being altered there! Because that would matter of fact change the latency right along with it.

Last edited by serr; 11-27-2021 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 11-27-2021, 12:52 PM   #32
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I know, right? Computers should be deterministic. But I did have those measurements slightly unstable and I think there was a couple more people with similar observations in that big latency thread. Not detectable in daily use unless you started obsessing over numbers
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Old 11-28-2021, 05:35 PM   #33
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Can you think of anyway I can insert a brief sound in every recording I make? Like you know, some kind of clap like they do in cinema to synchronize sound and and picture ?

That would take care at least of the synchronization of tracks that I record since the start, ( but not of tracks that I sometime record in the middle of the song though).
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Old 11-29-2021, 06:59 AM   #34
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I was going mad trying to figure out why I couldn't get loopback tests (ping test using Reainsert) to report a consistent offset. They were wildly different without changing anything between tests. It turned out to be because of my USB hub. Once I plugged my UMC-202HD directly into my laptop, loopback tests are within 2 samples of each other at most.
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Old 11-29-2021, 07:56 AM   #35
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Thanks masonsjax.
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:30 AM   #36
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Quote:
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Latency doesn't drift. Something else is going on here...

Think about how well the data connection would work if the timing was variable. You wouldn't ever get audio through!
Behold lol



No USB hubs, computer never throttling. Everything works perfectly really.
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Old 11-29-2021, 08:14 PM   #37
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I tried with another DAC coupled with another ADC and got the same issue.

As you can see on the picture, it's actually drifting to the left at each new test. On top is the original kick, then the first test, the second etc... down to the seventh. As you can see I recorded them all in a row and none matches any (there's like one minute between each of them and of course I didn't touch anything between each take). It's drifting to the left. And the difference between the first and the seventh is 0.024 seconds and would probably get bigger if I continued :

https://i.ibb.co/RCZjCJy/opposite-latency3.png

Last edited by judelaw; 11-29-2021 at 08:21 PM.
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