Old 02-18-2020, 11:34 AM   #1
Burnsjethro
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Default Subprojects again

Sorry to bother you all but I posted this message in another section and received no replies.

Could somebody look at it please and let me know if my idea is worthwhile, daft,... or worth pursuing?


I only recently came across the subproject system. Not sure I quite grasp all the implications.

However to save on power, could I save an entire project (the main project) in a subproject, then work in the subproject with a rendered version of the main project and then add other tracks to the SB (guitar, vocals, ...) so as to save on power and help with latency? Will all the changes I make in the SB be copied back into the main project?

I am looking for an uncomplicated routine for working on a project using as little power as possible.

Does the subproject open up automatically when I open the main one?

I am in the habit of shifting everything into a new folder when I work on a project (Song title 1, Song Title 2,...) so I can always go back to an earlier version if something goes wrong. If I do this with the addition of a subproject, will the latter automatically be transferred to the new folder?

Thanks in advance for any ideas.
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Old 02-19-2020, 02:50 AM   #2
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Yes, and no... If you have a mix going, and you render it, then import the render into a new project, you can record/edit/futz-with new tracks to your heart's content without loading the system down with the base track's processing. I do this all the time when I'm doing heavy editing on something and don't want to take a chance on accidentally ripple-editing the whole song. It does NOT "automatically" copy back over to the original project, however.

That's not to say that there isn't a script or LUA or whatever that can set that up, but honestly it's not that hard to do your edits (or new recordings, or whatever) and then stem-render the new tracks and import them into your original master project file.

For example, render the master file as a 2-track, then import that into a new project. Burn 20 tracks of guitar solo takes, then spend a couple of days auditioning, selecting and editing the 20 takes into a single "final" take. Stem-render the final take, and import back into the master project. Done. As a tip, if you do that, make sure you save the sub-project as it's own folder, so that the clips don't clutter up the directory for the main project.
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:02 AM   #3
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Thanks Dave. All th
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:07 AM   #4
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Thanks very much Dave. All that looks very interesting. I will now have to look up stem rendering.
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:44 AM   #5
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It's in the main render menu. First, select the tracks you want to render, then in the render menu, change the "source" to "Stems (selected tracks)." As a tip, in the file name box, I would use the song title (or mix version title) and the wildcard "$track" to automatically name the rendered file as "project name" plus "track name." For example, for the song title "Lovely," it might generate "lovely kick" "lovely snare" etc. Makes finding the tracks later much, much easier.
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Old 02-20-2020, 07:26 AM   #6
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Thanks a lot Dave. Well and clearly explained.
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Old 02-20-2020, 02:20 PM   #7
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hey there, good info here but I think you have it backwards.

Your main project will consist if your subprojects. The subproject(s) will be pieces of a larger project...the Main.

for instance, you have 20 tracks of music (drums, keys, bass, etc). Let's call this Proj 1. Now you want to ADD to this...perhaps vocals. Or perhaps try a new synth line somewhere.

You'd create a NEW project...let's call it Main Proj 1. This will be your Main project now.

Then you can import your Proj 1 into a track on Main Proj 1. This will add the RENDERED Proj 1 into the track. Proj 1 doesn't have to be open, but it will play in full, you can cut/splice/edit the rendered item just like any item.

You can then add to this with subsequent tracks of vocals, synths, etc. if you want to make changes to the rendered Proj 1, you double click the item and it opens Proj 1 separately. when you save Proj 1, it saves and Renders it back into Main Proj 1.

Another example: say you have 10 complete songs, saves as projects "Song 1", "Song 2", etc. You could create a New project called ALBUM 1 which would be your main project. Then you would import each Song project as subprojects. The main project is ALBUM 1 and is only processing the rendered audio (from subprojects) rather than all projects in full simultaneously.
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Old 02-21-2020, 06:50 AM   #8
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Thanks PoetProphet.

That sounds really interesting but would you mind going through that again a bit more simply as I am a bit slow on the uptake sometimes.

So have my main project A.

I render the entire project A.

I open a new tab and create a B project

I go to insert, insert media file, import the entire A project into B project


'You can then add to this with subsequent tracks of vocals, synths, etc. if you want to make changes to the rendered """"A"""" project, you double click the item and it opens "A" project separately. when you save Proj "A", it saves and Renders it back into "B".

Is that right?
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:13 AM   #9
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That's almost it. But, you don't have to "render entire project A" as a separate step. When you start your new Project B (which will hold any of your subprojects) you will Insert-> Media File (that's the exact menu selection) and select your project A.rpp. At that moment proj A will render and be inserted into your proj B (as an audio item).

Then, you have it correct, add additional tracks to the new proj B (which includes audio from proj A). And if you want to change proj A, open it, change it, and when you save it will render back into proj B.

Try it out, that's the best way to see what it's all about. As long as you Insert->Media File you won't harm anything, it doesn't change your original proj file, or save location, etc.
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Old 02-21-2020, 12:16 PM   #10
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Poetnprophet thanks a million. That is really a great system. I have just tried it. As simple as a dimple and as easy as a bee.

Thanks for coming back with that clear explanation, otherwise I would have been fiddling for ages.
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Old 02-21-2020, 04:03 PM   #11
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my pleasure!
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Old 02-22-2020, 02:15 PM   #12
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I have been trying out your system today Poetnprophet.

A question if you don't mind.
As I tend to mess things up, my method is to save a project with a different number when I do some work on it (Project A, Project A2, Project A3, ...) so I can run back through previous versions to find one I can use prior to the version when things went wrong.

So if I keep my subproject (Project B) constant, will I have to import a different Project A every time?

Any suggestions about keeping Project B constant, while updating Project A's number?
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:09 AM   #13
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Concerning the question I asked a couple of days ago:

((((As I tend to mess things up, my method is to save a project with a different number when I do some work on it (Project A, Project A2, Project A3, ...) so I can run back through previous versions to find one I can use prior to the version when things went wrong.

So if I keep my subproject (Project B) constant, will I have to import a different Project A every time?

Any suggestions about keeping Project B constant, while updating Project A's number? )))))

I was wondering if the best idea would be to rely on a multiversion backup file as explained at 6:49 in Kenny's video on saving
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjey57lAp1

That would do the trick wouldn't it? I wouldn't have to keep changing the number of my file name Project A 1, 2, 3,... and if anything goes wrong I just go into the back-up file to choose another version.

Another question, if anyone has any ideas. When I go to save my subproject B with Save as I see both Project B subproject and Project A named as imported A Project.

So when I click on the imported A project in subproject B am I calling up my very original A project? Is it linked to the very original A project (so any changes I make to the called up imported A project will be made to the original A project or is it a different file?)
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Old 02-24-2020, 12:27 PM   #14
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Hey, I'm not at the computer to respond fully today, but 2 things:

1. Yes you need the same Proj A inside of Proj B. Proj B references Proj A, not Proj A2, A3, etc. One thing I do is use Sws snapshots to save different versions inside Proj A. There are some caveats to doing that. I'm not sure about the method you mention, never used that.

2. Save your proj B as proj B, meaning save it differently so you dont overwrite. For instance, I'm building an EP right now. The individual songs are called Song 1, Song 2, wtc. My proj B file is called Album, and contains all the song proj files (proj A files)
Otherwise I'm not sure why you're touching proj A from the save as box inside proj b. Dont do that, dangerous.
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:28 PM   #15
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Thanks a lot for getting back to me. I will have a look at this tomorrow and see how I managed to get my original project A in the same folder as subproject B (although project A in the subproject B folder is called "imported" project A).
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Old 02-24-2020, 01:58 PM   #16
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Poetnprophet. OK I just checked.

I performed this operation twice to be sure.
I am recording Roll over Beethoven (don't laugh). So my original file (project A) is entitled Beethoven 25 (as it is the 25th time I have saved it).

I have now made sure I created a completely different folder, which I saved as Beethoven subproject. I then inserted media file (Beethoven 25). And when everything was completed I looked in the separate Beethoven subproject and lo and behold I have an rpp called Beethoven subproject and another rpp just underneath it called Beethoven 25-imported.

So is Beethoven 25 imported connected to the original Beethoven 25 project, as it was before it was imported? If I click twice on the rendered file in the subproject to call up and alter something in B25, when I save the changes will this alter B25 or B25-imported? Any ideas please?
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:29 PM   #17
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Ok, I see what you're saying. Yes the new file (imported) is now the most current, not the original.

I actually didn't know that happened, that's kind of a bummer for me, I'll have to think about how to overcome that.
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Old 02-25-2020, 12:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poetnprophet View Post
Ok, I see what you're saying. Yes the new file (imported) is now the most current, not the original.

I actually didn't know that happened, that's kind of a bummer for me, I'll have to think about how to overcome that.

Maybe the developers could chime in with a few thoughts on this topic. Otherwise, why would it be "dangerous" to have the two files in the same folder?
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Old 02-25-2020, 12:55 AM   #19
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I just found this post in Reaper on a similar topic

https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2007863

The latest post, right at the bottom, says:
" Hi,
the right workaround is to open Project Settings > Media and "Do not copy to project path".
Now you can import any project as subproject and it doesn't create a copy in the project's folder.

When you have imported your subproject, you can put back your settings on "copy media to project path".

If you ever change the location of the targeted project (which is now a subproject in the context of your project!) you can relink the same way as with a regular media."

I am not sure if I understand all of this correctly but I just tried this procedure and now there is no second "imported" A project in the same folder as the B subproject. Do you think this might solve the problem?
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Old 02-25-2020, 10:58 AM   #20
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cool, thanks for the tip! i'll definitely start using that way from now on, I hate duplicate files.
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Old 02-25-2020, 11:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poetnprophet View Post
cool, thanks for the tip! i'll definitely start using that way from now on, I hate duplicate files.
Great. Let me know how you get on with it.
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Old 03-02-2020, 04:04 PM   #22
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Just reporting back that changing that project setting to not import files is really the way to go. Thanks again for pointing that out.
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:44 AM   #23
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No thanks needed. Thanks for introducing me to the subproject trick. Most useful.
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Old 03-11-2020, 12:16 PM   #24
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imho, saving the subproject into the referencing project's media folder defeats a great part of a subproject's goal (its global independence). I'd expect all subprojects to remain untouched in their own original project folder by default. I might use the same subproject in many other projects. If I'm actually working on local copies of the original subproject, it can quickly get a huge mess! I can see situations where a local copy may be desireable but in this situation I'd rather move the subproject into my current referencing project myself.

btw, a great feature of subprojects is that you can set them up in a way that they creates individual stems instead of a single stereo mix of the whole project. This allows you to still be able to mix the subproject (or at least the most important signals of it) inside the referencing project. To accomplish this, create a new track in your subproject and route every other track to a desired channel of this track (not all tracks "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 1/2" but "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 3/4" etc.). When saving the subproject, you will observe Reaper's creation process of a multichannel file containing all stems as separate channels. They will also going to appear as a multichannel item inside the referencing project. There, you can then create a corresponding no. of tracks which receive stereo or mono channels of the multichannel item to be able to mix them using their own track fader.

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Old 03-17-2020, 02:52 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
...
To accomplish this, create a new track in your subproject and route every
other track to a desired channel of this track (not all tracks "Audio 1/2
-> Audio 1/2" but "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 3/4" etc.)
Very helpful Tip! Thank you.
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Old 03-17-2020, 11:58 AM   #26
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To accomplish this, create a new track in your subproject and route every
other track to a desired channel of this track (not all tracks "Audio 1/2
-> Audio 1/2" but "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 3/4" etc.)


It sounds like a good tip but you would mind explaining this process a more simply please?
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Old 03-19-2020, 07:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnsjethro View Post
To accomplish this, create a new track in your subproject and route every
other track to a desired channel of this track (not all tracks "Audio 1/2
-> Audio 1/2" but "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 3/4" etc.)


It sounds like a good tip but you would mind explaining this process a more simply please?
I hope I can clarify:

Create a new track in the subproject. You could label it something like "sub-project's stems track". This track needs to get receives from all tracks that you wanna have separately volume-adjustable in the project referencing it, however you will have to route all sending tracks to different audio channels on it.

Let's say, you have a band playing in your sub-project (drums, bass, e-guits, ac-guits, keys) and you would like to be able to still adjust the volume of the drums, the bass, and the two types of guitars separately in the higher-order project. In the sub-project, start by routing all drum tracks to the aforementioned new "stems track". In the kick track's routing window you'll see "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 1/2". This means that the kick is being sent to the stem track's internal audio channels 1 and 2. Continue to do the routing for all other drum tracks in the same way.

Now, when routing the bass track to the stem track, create a send like before but now change its "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 1/2" to "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 3/4". This will route the bass track to the stem track's internal audio channels 3 and 4, keeping the bass signal separate from and not mixed with the drum signals (which were routed to audio channels 1 and 2).

When routing the electric guitars, route each of those to the stem track and make sure to choose "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 5/6". When routing the acoustic guitars, choose "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 7/8" and when routing the keyboard(s), choose "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 9/10".

Save the sub-project. It will immediately render a multichannel item containing all the stems you routed to the stem track. Inside the higher-order project, you will see this item incl. the numerous audio signals inside it. To be able to mix all these separate signals, you have to create the matching no. of tracks and route each stem from the multichannel item's track to a dedicated track. To get the drums, route sub-project's "Audio 1/2 -> Audio 1/2" on one track, to get the bass, route sub-project's "Audio 3/4 -> Audio 1/2" on another track, etc.

.
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Old 03-20-2020, 03:01 AM   #28
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Thank you very much for going to all that trouble SonicAxiom.
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Old 03-20-2020, 07:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnsjethro View Post
Thank you very much for going to all that trouble SonicAxiom.
you're most welcome! No trouble at all! I hope you could follow my explanations. Feel free to ask if anything is still unclear.

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