Key C - Fm chord?

[read]

https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab...chords-2794426

can you tell me how can it say its Key C when there's an Fm included

thanks

[toleolu]

Nice thing about music is, the rules are made to be broken.

Perfect example is Hey Joe. C - G - D - A - E. What key is that???

Hendrix played his licks in Em tuned down a half step, Eb minor, but in Em, A minor is the IV chord, not A major.

Nothing says you can't change keys in the middle of a song, even if for just a little bit.

[mplay]

It's called a borrowed chord, the Fm chord would be a borrowed iv chord in the C major scale. I like 'em

[read]

Originally Posted by mplay

It's called a borrowed chord, the Fm chord would be a borrowed iv chord in the C major scale. I like 'em

what other chords can be borrowed?

[read]

Originally Posted by toleolu

Nice thing about music is, the rules are made to be broken.

Perfect example is Hey Joe. C - G - D - A - E. What key is that???

Hendrix played his licks in Em tuned down a half step, Eb minor, but in Em, A minor is the IV chord, not A major.

Nothing says you can't change keys in the middle of a song, even if for just a little bit.

i don't think its a change in key though in this song right?

[vdubreeze]

It's totally in the key. In C, F is the IV chord. F minor is simply the minor IV, or IV minor, depending on who first showed you If a song is in C, for example, adding any chord, no matter how it seems to change things, won't change the fact that the song is in C (unless it takes off having actually modulated into another key.)

[karbomusic]

FYI: Fm is also the first "negative harmony" chord derived from the key of C.

[read]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

FYI: Fm is also the first "negative harmony" chord derived from the key of C.

why is that?

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by read

why is that?

Because with negative harmony you harmonize the chords from the scale with the same interval pattern but in the opposite direction AKA mirroring 1-3-5. But that's not a concern really for the original question, just noting it in an off topic kind of way.

Here's a screenshot... All I did was use the same intervals to create the C Major but in a negative direction, so basically recreating the interval symmetry as the opposite:



You can harmonize the entire scale that way but it's way advanced and esoteric compared to the original question. It is however likely related to why you can get away with an Fm placed just so in a song that is in C and normally uses the F Major. It works well as a transitional chord in the key of C.

[read]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Because with negative harmony you harmonize the chords from the scale with the same interval pattern but in the opposite direction AKA mirroring 1-3-5. But that's not a concern really for the original question, just noting it in an off topic kind of way.

Here's a screenshot... All I did was use the same intervals to create the C Major but in a negative direction, so basically recreating the interval symmetry as the opposite:



You can harmonize the entire scale that way but it's way advanced and esoteric compared to the original question. It is however likely related to why you can get away with an Fm placed just so in a song that is in C and normally uses the F Major. It works well as a transitional chord in the key of C.

i see what you mean now....so its based like being a mirror image so has some common things at least.

will have to learn more on this thanks Karbomusic

[toleolu]

It's always possible that the Fm in the song you are referring to is what they call a passing tone. Something you throw in there to give the song a little more nuanced feel or effect. Looks like that Fm shows up only in the chorus and bridge so that might be what they were thinking.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by toleolu

It's always possible that the Fm in the song you are referring to is what they call a passing tone. Something you throw in there to give the song a little more nuanced feel or effect.

I think there are probably 50 things that make it work It also works as a substitute for F Major (or C depending), also if you go F Major, F Minor, C then you are walking the third down via A > Ab > G and almost anytime you have a note that walks with chromatic voice leading, it sounds nice.

[toleolu]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

I think there are probably 50 things that make it work It also works as a substitute for F Major (or C depending), also if you go F Major, F Minor, C then you are walking the third down via A > Ab > G and almost anytime you have a note that walks with chromatic voice leading, it sounds nice.

At least 50!!

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by read

i see what you mean now....so its based like being a mirror image so has some common things at least.

will have to learn more on this thanks Karbomusic

Some explanation...

https://youtu.be/iHPFAQj0Geg?t=222


Here's what happens when someone transforms an entire song to the negative harmony equivalent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRvg_G957wo

[Jae.Thomas]

is it really though?

[Jae.Thomas]

i'd love to see the theory behind some of these vids

but yes negative harmony is amazing. I think Fm6 is the negative version tho, but is that C or Cmaj7

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

i'd love to see the theory behind some of these vids

but yes negative harmony is amazing. I think Fm6 is the negative version tho, but is that C or Cmaj7

For the 4 note chord I think so Cmaj7=Fm6? I didn't check just guessing... The basic diatonic triad of an inverted C is just Fm.

You are right though, not much excuse for being in a rut hehe.

[read]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Some explanation...

https://youtu.be/iHPFAQj0Geg?t=222


Here's what happens when someone transforms an entire song to the negative harmony equivalent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRvg_G957wo

interesting! thanks for the vids

[martifingers]

This is an interesting recent video on some questions of assigning key:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=DVPq_-oJV5U

[OldTascam]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Here's what happens when someone transforms an entire song to the negative harmony equivalent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRvg_G957wo

Coolest thing I've seen today.

[morgon]

It's maybe possible to factor the Fm chord as a temporary modulation to F Harmonic minor, which has C Maj as it's 5th chord.

i.e modulation from C Maj key to the 4th [F] Harmonic minor key, then back to C Maj key again.

[pcartwright]

This is a really interesting question that can be answered differently based on the style of music and the underlying harmony involved.

Negative harmonies are certainly cool theoretically. Neo-Riemannian theory is largely based on the geometric patterns formed with consonant triads which is related to negative harmonies. In this case, the C major is "transformed" into F minor. (more info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Riemannian_theory).

Another explanation using Schenkerian analysis (a different music theory) is that the F minor is a borrowed chord from some other key (as mentioned earlier in the thread). This sort of "borrowing" happens a lot, though the types of chords that are borrowed often depend on when the song/piece was written and the harmonic idioms common for the era or style.

In this case, F minor in a C major key is typical of mixture from a parallel key. That is, F minor does not exist in C major, but F minor does exist in C minor. In this case, the root is still C, so the borrowed chord probably sounds fairly smooth (doesn't stick out too drastically).

You asked earlier what other chords could be borrowed. In reality, any chord could be borrowed. However, the more remote the chord is from the current key the more abrupt or jarring the effect. Try playing an F minor chord followed by a B minor chord and you'll get my point.

Some basic information on modal mixture:
http://openmusictheory.com/modalMixture.html

[Not_Here]

absolutely refreshing reading through a thread of musicians discussing music and theory and educated opinions...

chord theory and key's, cancels all the noise in a busy head.