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Old 12-06-2019, 10:41 AM   #1
Megagoth1702
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Default Give this a 30 sec listen and tell me what sucks about it

Damn, clickbait.

Dear REAPER forum.

I'm in a shitty mixing environment in combination with headphones with sonarworks and I'm trying my best to get a good balanced mix, also using VSTs and multiple cab IRs for guitar tones.

I think I'm close to something but I stil feeel like I'm missing something. For the first time I experimented with stuff like boost 2k in snare by 3db, cut 2k by 3db in guitars (I picked 2k because on the snare it sounded like what I was missing), to make the snare pop through. Stuff like that.

Just give this a 30 sec listen and tell me what you like and what you would do differently about this mix.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1cjik3qkhh...nts_3.mp3?dl=0
Here is an updated version of the mix with the feedback from y'all included as best as I could:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v0rxlskwxxbbv0x/GuitarCabExperiments_7.mp3?dl=0

The major goal here is becoming skilled enough so I can record & produce my bands EP. So you feedback matters a lot.

Thank you REAPERs!
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Last edited by Megagoth1702; 12-08-2019 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:19 PM   #2
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Hey,

to me the snare is a bit weak compared to the wall of guitars.. this is really the first thing that I noticed. But I don't know how I could help you with mixing here.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:50 PM   #3
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I actually think this sounds pretty good.

Since we are talking about the snare I agree that it doesn't have the power that everything else has.

The body of practically every snare drum is around 200hz. Boosting that usually helps and, in that same vein, cutting 200hz in competing instruments. Another thing that defines the snare is the sound of the room its in. Or you could say, it's length of time/decay.

I think the most important thing to take away from this is though:

You can absolutely do it. This doesn't sound amateur to me hardly at all. The music is tight and guitars are played well. I say go for it.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:57 PM   #4
Lowell Mather 5150
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I agree, think it sounds pretty good and themore meat on the snare. I think it could use a little more air, and the second guitar (lead/texture)some more space in the mix and/or more distinct tone from rhythm guitars.
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:19 PM   #5
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Snare is quite weak. Should be tearing off the background as a thunder, at least that is how I would mix it.
Other than that the guitar and bass tones work pretty nicely. Kick is typical for metal, clicky and narrow (not my taste but in this type of music works I guess).
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:54 PM   #6
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The guitar(s) sound(s) great!
But yeah... the snare and the kick are too far away. The crash is fine, but bring up the snare and kick. Will be awesome
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:47 PM   #7
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Maybe it's just me, I think I hear compression working when all instruments come in, at the start of the riff sequence. It sounds too grabby to me.
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:01 PM   #8
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It sucks there's only the one riff.

Interesting that the guitar sounds so quiet on its own. Is this on purpose or is it just the bass filling it out so well when it comes in and making it sound louder?
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:17 PM   #9
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The bass drum and snare sound like they are entirely unconnected. The drums in general don't sound like a kit. The bass drum is inside my head and the snare is down the street! Some very subtle shared ambience could really help that.

Other than that, I agree with all the comments above. It's sounding pretty good. I like the balance between the bass guitar and guitars, too. Sounds fat and heavy that way.

The only other thing that struck me was that it was kind of conservative in its wideness. For the kind of style you seem to be going for, more "coming outside the speakers" techniques could be good.
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Old 12-07-2019, 06:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjewellstudios View Post
I actually think this sounds pretty good.

Since we are talking about the snare I agree that it doesn't have the power that everything else has.

The body of practically every snare drum is around 200hz. Boosting that usually helps and, in that same vein, cutting 200hz in competing instruments. Another thing that defines the snare is the sound of the room its in. Or you could say, it's length of time/decay.

I think the most important thing to take away from this is though:

You can absolutely do it. This doesn't sound amateur to me hardly at all. The music is tight and guitars are played well. I say go for it.
Thank you for your comment! Actually I actually realized my fundamental was a bit higher than where I was boosting, therefore not really boosting... Do you mean the room sound of the kit or snare-reverb? Or maybe it does not matter, as long as the effect is achieved... How do you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell Mather 5150 View Post
I agree, think it sounds pretty good and themore meat on the snare. I think it could use a little more air, and the second guitar (lead/texture)some more space in the mix and/or more distinct tone from rhythm guitars.
Thank you for the comment! What do you mean by space in the mix for the lead guitar? How can I achieve that/how do you do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adXok View Post
Snare is quite weak. Should be tearing off the background as a thunder, at least that is how I would mix it.
Other than that the guitar and bass tones work pretty nicely. Kick is typical for metal, clicky and narrow (not my taste but in this type of music works I guess).
Thank you!
Actually I don't really like this clicky kick, I would like it to "slap" more instead of clicking. But I have no idea how to process it this way. Here is a bit of raw-kick-sample, could you maybe help me out? If you could make it more slappy and share how you did it, it would be a great help.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fthuztymm2...ents.flac?dl=0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
The guitar(s) sound(s) great!
But yeah... the snare and the kick are too far away. The crash is fine, but bring up the snare and kick. Will be awesome
Thanks for the input! Far away, do you mean high frequency wise or volume wise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinknoise View Post
Maybe it's just me, I think I hear compression working when all instruments come in, at the start of the riff sequence. It sounds too grabby to me.
Yup, you're right, the multiband compressor on the master is grabbing the 2nd hihat hit. Maybe if I turn it off during the intro and turn it on when the music starts it will help. Thanks for bringing it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
It sucks there's only the one riff.

Interesting that the guitar sounds so quiet on its own. Is this on purpose or is it just the bass filling it out so well when it comes in and making it sound louder?
There are 4x guitar tracks, using 2 different cabs. You can hear each one of them in the quiet part with boosted low-mids. In the main part the low mids are gone but what's added is a 2nd track where I send the guitar bus, tape distort it to hell and mix it to the guitars. It's weird, when I solo the bass+guitars+GitDistorted layer, the distortion is clearly audible and sounds a bit nasty, but together with drums the high frequency sizzle just disappears and I'm left with "a bit more clear guitars"... It was an experiment that I think will work in the future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
The bass drum and snare sound like they are entirely unconnected. The drums in general don't sound like a kit. The bass drum is inside my head and the snare is down the street! Some very subtle shared ambience could really help that.

Other than that, I agree with all the comments above. It's sounding pretty good. I like the balance between the bass guitar and guitars, too. Sounds fat and heavy that way.

The only other thing that struck me was that it was kind of conservative in its wideness. For the kind of style you seem to be going for, more "coming outside the speakers" techniques could be good.
Thank you for your input on the drums! I actually have no idea how to bring them together in the mix. On it's own the drum kit sounds fine but with the other instruments I agree with you, the roomyness of the kit disapperas, but I have no clue how to fix it besides maybe trying reverbing the kit a lot more.

@outside the speakers: How do I achieve that? I'm afraid to use stereo-widening because of mono-compatibility issues. Hmm.
In german there are these bands which help simulate front/back/above but I struggle to find anything tutorial-wise on these bands.

Here is an updated version of the mix with the feedback from y'all included as best as I could:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v0rxlskwxxbbv0x/GuitarCabExperiments_7.mp3?dl=0

The main thing for me now is, I gave the snare more hiFreq & more fundamental boost, turned down the freqs in other instruments even more, turned the snare volume up more. Used XComp as a frequency-dependant gate to let in high freqs only and mixed that to the snare.
Lead guitar had a HiFreq boost to make it stand out more.


Thank you all for your input guys, I am learning a ton! What do you think about the new mix?
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Last edited by Megagoth1702; 12-08-2019 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:14 AM   #11
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I think the mix has improved.

I know what you mean about loud mastered records and the snare being clear and punch while also not being "pokey" (man I hate putting sound into words). Here's a video that articulates a couple things that will help in that regard way better than I ever could.

https://youtu.be/cgfBcFTbir4

This is also where I'm getting the "length of the snare drum" comment I made earlier.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megagoth1702 View Post
@outside the speakers: How do I achieve that? I'm afraid to use stereo-widening because of mono-compatibility issues.
Try this; instant stereo widening without the usual problems: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220277 (Stereo Bub II)
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:28 AM   #13
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As far as the outside the speakers, I believe he's referring to the Haas effect. This can be done in Reaper, or you can try the free Haas from Vesco FX or the outsider (I guess it's not free anymore, maybe there are alternatives, or you can set it up in Reaper). Just be careful with how it translates to mono.

If that's what you're going for, as far those octave lines go, I think that's ok. Personally I'd have them out front more, but that's a personal decision. Are you using the same amp and settings/cabinets for the rhythm and lead guitars? What is your panning scheme as well. As a personal mix decision, I think I would lose the automation on the middle part of the octave lines. I don't know if it's the mp3 or if the compression is a little aggressive at times.
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
Try this; instant stereo widening without the usual problems: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220277 (Stereo Bub II)
There ya go, awesome.
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Old 12-08-2019, 03:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell Mather 5150 View Post
As far as the outside the speakers, I believe he's referring to the Haas effect.
No, I'm not keen on that in general.

The more differences in L&R, the wider it will sound. So simple things like subtly different EQ tweaks on the L&R guitars can work well.

Rather than applying stereo widening effects to the guitars themselves, which can affect mono compatibility (if that is a concern, I've given up worrying about that beyond being able to hear the main elements of a song in mono), you could try a subtle room ambience and apply widening to that. An easy and mono-compatible way to do that is to use mid/side encoding and simply bring the gain of the mid channel down a bit. There's probably a JS plugin for that, but I use Voxengo's free MSED: https://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/
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Old 12-08-2019, 03:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megagoth1702 View Post
Thank you for your input on the drums! I actually have no idea how to bring them together in the mix. On it's own the drum kit sounds fine but with the other instruments I agree with you, the roomyness of the kit disapperas, but I have no clue how to fix it besides maybe trying reverbing the kit a lot more.
Do you have a separate room track that you can turn up?

Don't think about what the drums sound like on their own, unless they are playing solo in spots (then you can automate room channel or reverb sends). Only worry about how the kit sounds in context of the mix.
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Old 12-08-2019, 07:05 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjewellstudios View Post
I think the mix has improved.

I know what you mean about loud mastered records and the snare being clear and punch while also not being "pokey" (man I hate putting sound into words). Here's a video that articulates a couple things that will help in that regard way better than I ever could.

https://youtu.be/cgfBcFTbir4

This is also where I'm getting the "length of the snare drum" comment I made earlier.
Ah, thank you very much! I applied some of the tips from the video! Especially the expanded room gives the snare some smack! Thanks for the input and the video! These days YouTube is so full of content, it's hard to find gems like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
Try this; instant stereo widening without the usual problems: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220277 (Stereo Bub II)
Eeeh, nice! Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell Mather 5150 View Post
As far as the outside the speakers, I believe he's referring to the Haas effect. This can be done in Reaper, or you can try the free Haas from Vesco FX or the outsider (I guess it's not free anymore, maybe there are alternatives, or you can set it up in Reaper). Just be careful with how it translates to mono.

If that's what you're going for, as far those octave lines go, I think that's ok. Personally I'd have them out front more, but that's a personal decision. Are you using the same amp and settings/cabinets for the rhythm and lead guitars? What is your panning scheme as well. As a personal mix decision, I think I would lose the automation on the middle part of the octave lines. I don't know if it's the mp3 or if the compression is a little aggressive at times.
Thanks for the input!
I'm going for Mid/Side stuff & EQ changes now.
I'm using the same amp for rhythm & lead guitar, but the rhythm guitars have 4 gits, 2 of which are panned 100% L/R with a bright cab and the other 2 are 50% L/R with a darker cab. Lead guitar is using one cab of the rhythm guitars and is also limited as hell to keep it stable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
No, I'm not keen on that in general.

The more differences in L&R, the wider it will sound. So simple things like subtly different EQ tweaks on the L&R guitars can work well.

Rather than applying stereo widening effects to the guitars themselves, which can affect mono compatibility (if that is a concern, I've given up worrying about that beyond being able to hear the main elements of a song in mono), you could try a subtle room ambience and apply widening to that. An easy and mono-compatible way to do that is to use mid/side encoding and simply bring the gain of the mid channel down a bit. There's probably a JS plugin for that, but I use Voxengo's free MSED: https://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/
Yeah, I think I'll play with EQ on the sides a bit more. Thank you for that tip! I totally forgot about it, because I wanted both sides to sound even, but small tweaks ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Do you have a separate room track that you can turn up?

Don't think about what the drums sound like on their own, unless they are playing solo in spots (then you can automate room channel or reverb sends). Only worry about how the kit sounds in context of the mix.
Yup, thanks. Yeah my room is already compressed to hell and turned up, I'm at the point now where the room turned up higher will really change the symbal sound & LR balance.

But yeah, I'm working a lot more with automation. Earlier I thought "the perfect sound" just goes thru the whole song... Nope.

Here is an updated mix:
I also realized, dropbox plays back a 128kbit mp3, for whatever reason, no matter the quality of the file, so download it rather than streaming. Weird.
Stronger L/R stuff on the guitars, all the snare-tricks, same reverb on kick as on snare to see if it feels like in the same room, louder room in general.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v0rxlskwxxbbv0x/GuitarCabExperiments_7.mp3?dl=0
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Old 12-09-2019, 01:12 PM   #18
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Oh, hey... I forgot to mention probably my favourite way for opening up width at the moment:

Do separate EQ for mid and sides. However you do it; whether that's an EQ with mid and side channels, or sending to two channels and setting an encoder/decoder to mute mid/side...

As well as any corrective EQ or boosts you do, also:

Low pass the mid channel. A gentle slope, I like 6 dB per octave. Bring it down until you can't really notice it until you bypass the EQ.

High pass the side channel as above, and add a touch of high shelf boost.

This can really open up the width.
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Oh, hey... I forgot to mention probably my favourite way for opening up width at the moment:

Do separate EQ for mid and sides. However you do it; whether that's an EQ with mid and side channels, or sending to two channels and setting an encoder/decoder to mute mid/side...

As well as any corrective EQ or boosts you do, also:

Low pass the mid channel. A gentle slope, I like 6 dB per octave. Bring it down until you can't really notice it until you bypass the EQ.

High pass the side channel as above, and add a touch of high shelf boost.

This can really open up the width.
Hey man, thats some cool stuff! Thank you! I will try the mid/side low/hipass stuff! Sounds really cool!
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:54 PM   #20
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No problem, hope it works for you.
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