The ZOOM CREEP problem. It's time to fix it. Thats right.

[5ynth3t1k]

This has been a thing for YEARS. From the get go I think.

I have no idea why this has not been fixed but it's time to FIX IT NOW.

You zoom out too far and the track view slides to the left.

It is a super PAIN IN THE ARSE.

How many people have to complain about this ???

The simplest way to solve this is just stop the zoom just before the tracks all jump left. That's my two cents.

AND what's more it does it in the MIDI editor. So if you zoom out too far the midi data inch worms to the left.

That's a hard nope.

What does it take to get really simple and BS problems sorted out ?????????????????????????????

Even if people LIKE THESE "FEATURES" ( why would you ? ) it would not take much to make yet another check box to keep the default "inch worm zoom" . Right.

So come on, this is not 2016 any more. We all growed up now.

and yes I will be continuously posting this kind of rant till it's fixed. I use reaper EVERYDAY and this "feature" is not funny any more.

and I have a few other issues I would like to discuss but this one needs fixing NOW.

I shall not give up.

[Meo-Ada Mespotine]

Instead of extensive ranting, it would be much more helpful, if you describe the behavior of the zoom, if it would be fixed to your liking in greater detail. Otherwise you get a fix but not the one you actually want.

Also a LiceCap-screenvideo would help to see, what in detail you are doing so everyone knows exactly, what you are referring to(picture says more than a thousand words).

And, if what you want is a zoom-out-limiter(it sounds like this), it's scriptable plus there's a feature request for it.

[5ynth3t1k]

Originally Posted by Meo-Ada Mespotine

Instead of extensive ranting, it would be much more helpful, if you describe the behavior of the zoom, if it would be fixed to your liking in greater detail. Otherwise you get a fix but not the one you actually want.

Also a LiceCap-screenvideo would help to see, what in detail you are doing so everyone knows exactly, what you are referring to(picture says more than a thousand words).

And, if what you want is a zoom-out-limiter(it sounds like this), it's scriptable plus there's a feature request for it.

"You zoom out too far and the track view slides to the left. "
( Third line down in my "rant". )




How about this:

Open reaper.

Open a project.

Use the mouse wheel, zoom out.

Tell me what happens. ( For me and others the whole project works it's way left. )

Also: Try it in the midi editor.

FYI. My reaper is pretty much vanilla with a couple of mouse modifiers that stop the stupid green line from repositioning whenever I use the mouse below the time line. Which was massively irritating out of the box.

Here:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=263632


I have posted this problem before but cannot be arsed looking for it. What is this "feature" even called?

I await your observations.

[5ynth3t1k]

Originally Posted by Meo-Ada Mespotine

Instead of extensive ranting, it would be much more helpful, if you describe the behavior of the zoom, if it would be fixed to your liking in greater detail. Otherwise you get a fix but not the one you actually want.

Also a LiceCap-screenvideo would help to see, what in detail you are doing so everyone knows exactly, what you are referring to(picture says more than a thousand words).

And, if what you want is a zoom-out-limiter(it sounds like this), it's scriptable plus there's a feature request for it.

Still waiting.

[pcp]

Originally Posted by 5ynth3t1k

Still waiting.

Your attitude hardly inspires helpful responses but here goes anyway, for others like me who had the same issue.

bFooz solved it with a script (Ferropop"s suggestion) that dynamically links the maximum zoom-out length to the project end marker.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=262841

You can also just manually change Limit Project Length in project settings if you insist on remaining 'vanilla'. Anyway it's a FR now thanks to more constructive posts so hopefully you will benefit from a native tweak.

[deeb]

there is something happening that i don't like either. Not sure if is the same.
I am not sure if i can express it but i'll try:

When i zoom in and out, i naturally think that the vertical point where i am scrolling should not move at all.

:: In this example i want to stay on beat 5, but while i scroll the position of the tempo 5 relatively to the window gets changed (shifted left or right)



:: in this example i want to focus on beat 1, and when i need to go for detail i zoom in pointing my mouse as close as possible to tempo 1, but reaper shifts it's position, and i need to shift left to compensate and be able to view what i want. And now for example i realise i need more detail and i need to zoom even more. Reaper shifts again and i need to compensate again, and so on and so on ... And same happens when zooming out, and so on and so on.




This is undesirable and since requires user to compensate left or right the reaper shifting: All the time ... making UX very tediou. We as users do not want to be not concerned to find and look where my focus position is when using scroll vertically. Would it be possible to change this?

[pcp]

Originally Posted by deeb

When i zoom in and out, i naturally think that the vertical point where i am scrolling should not move at all.

Have you tried the different options in Preferences > Editing Behavior > Horizontal Zoom ? Sounds like you have it on Mouse Cursor and would rather have it set up to a fixed cursor or center of view.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by pcp

Have you tried the different options in Preferences > Editing Behavior > Horizontal Zoom ? Sounds like you have it on Mouse Cursor and would rather have it set up to a fixed cursor or center of view.

Thank you pcp i actually didn't know or remember about this preference but none of the option works as i wished. I could probably use with "fixed cursor" but then is an extra step everytime also .. i don't know...

Maybe reaper should no only consider mouse position but consider that the mouse is near a time division.

Anyway! Thank you so much !

[5ynth3t1k]

Originally Posted by pcp

Your attitude hardly inspires helpful responses but here goes anyway, for others like me who had the same issue.

bFooz solved it with a script (Ferropop"s suggestion) that dynamically links the maximum zoom-out length to the project end marker.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=262841

You can also just manually change Limit Project Length in project settings if you insist on remaining 'vanilla'. Anyway it's a FR now thanks to more constructive posts so hopefully you will benefit from a native tweak.

Thank you for the "attitude" comment. That really is condescending.

Digging around looking for solutions to a problem that the devs need to look at is
particularly vexing. I mean everyone who uses reaper has this same problem straight out of the box. ZOOM CREEP.

Sounds catchy.

I'm going to follow that rabbit hole and see if it does indeed fix the ZOOM CREEP but I am not holding my breath.

5.

[Sibben]

Originally Posted by 5ynth3t1k

Thank you for the "attitude" comment. That really is condescending.

If you look around this forum one thing sticks out compared to many other forums. It is, and has always been, a nice place. People are for the most part civil and friendly.

This creates an atmosphere that is not only pleasant for everyone but also welcoming and inviting to new and old users alike.

One can still be critical or ask for things but it’s really about how you do that.

Tone matters.

[5ynth3t1k]

Originally Posted by Sibben

... Tone matters.

In this case Functionality matters.

Sorry if my way is not the super smooth way you may be used to but hey we are not all built the same. and this forum has put up with this really vexing problem that erodes the work flow and you did what about it now ???

Well here is a concept: maybe the problem wouldn't be here if people spoke up a little bit harder.

The problem is a thing. How I talk about it or how I interact with other users here is really not the point.

"Attitude" smh.

Zoom creep. or call it what you will is SUPER ANNOYING. Do you feel the pent up rage? No? Sorry I was typing as hard as I could. Darn it.

What if I wrote in all caps ? Would that be worse ???

[pcp]

Originally Posted by deeb

Maybe reaper should no only consider mouse position but consider that the mouse is near a time division.

Nice feature request actually. I would totally use the option to "Horizontal Zoom to mouse cursor (nearest grid division)."
Though in practice maybe that would not behave that differently given I use FTC's Adaptive Grid script (which when it comes to zooming, is another essential IMO - it makes the real grid, with snapping and note insertion and all, change when you zoom in and out, and not just the visual representation of the grid).

[5ynth3t1k]

Originally Posted by pcp

Nice feature request actually. I would totally use the option to "Horizontal Zoom to mouse cursor (nearest grid division)."
Though in practice maybe that would not behave that differently given I use FTC's Adaptive Grid script (which when it comes to zooming, is another essential IMO - it makes the real grid, with snapping and note insertion and all, change when you zoom in and out, and not just the visual representation of the grid).

and this is part of the problem.

Let me explain:

If you have software that can be modified. ( mods, scripts, addons etc )
to the point where each user can have quite wildly different functionality experiences then the whole conversation about how things work in the Vanilla "straight out of the box" becomes strained.

ie:
What problem? I have this custom pile of scripts etc that make reaper work the way I want it too....

No two reaper experiences are now the same unless they are the same un customised versions.

Here is a trick:

Download a portable reaper version and run it vanilla, no script nothing, and see what you are missing out on. or the "features" that you have tuned out.

Sure scripts and what not are great for doing custom jobs on things. But when the script is making up for major short comings in the situation it's time to look at the problem. BandAiding the software together is another way of making the problem go away. Hey it might be clever and making use of the tools etc but ... the problem is still there.

and who is to say that there is an overall "best way" ? How many devs have come up with their own way to do the same things that everyone needs to do. etc etc.
Development is a can or worms, and this is where leadership is actually a big deal. Who is leading the way and do they know where they are going?

It has been suggested that a focus group get together to discuss things. Yes that in theory sounds interesting. I would be interested to see if there was a consensus on certain points, and just how wide the spread of division could be etc. Who knows, maybe there is a simple right and wrong way to do some things. Art forms are infinitely variable. Which is the whole problem really.

Finding out what the devs thought about this exact problem would be the first step I guess in trying to solve it. Why does it work like this ??? Maybe this is what they want, how they expect it to work for them. Who knows?

[foxAsteria]

Yes it's annoying but no, telling the devs how to do their job isn't productive. Doubt they'll even open the thread based on that title.

I get frustrated and need to vent as well, but when's the last time you were encouraged to change something because some random person criticized you for it?

Just saying, hope you don't expect any results here.

[pcp]

Originally Posted by 5ynth3t1k

Development is a can or worms, and this is where leadership is actually a big deal. Who is leading the way and do they know where they are going?

It has been suggested that a focus group get together to discuss things.

Hard to have it both ways though. REAPER clearly isn't a committee or focus-group-driven project. Justin, Schwa and WT all have stubborn, strong opinions, and a vision of what the software should be. But the devs do clearly monitor and implement FRs and bug reports made on this forum.

Trying a vanilla REAPER install wouldn't be very useful to me nor do I think it would say much about anything other than the 'out of the box' experience (which I agree could be improved for new electronic/MIDI musicians especially). Running stock, do I have to use Reasynth instead of my VST collection? I'm more swayed by the fact that REAPER runs my VSTs more reliably, with lower latency and fewer graphical glitches (once everything's configured) than any other DAW I've tried, and with more powerful routing. Scripts are the same thing to me, and I'd rather the devs focus on bullet-proofing and extending their API than integrating everything natively. Who cares if no two REAPER installs are the same? Do you install apps on your phone or keep everything "vanilla"?

That said, core navigational features like zooming and adaptive grid are IMO best implemented natively .

And I don't disagree with your zooming critique, but by attitude I mean that announcing you'll effectively spam the forum daily and then doing so in response to another user's helpful post, is likely to be counter-productive. The Ferropop/bFooz feature request and proof of concept script are the focus group you are looking for, and much more likely to result in the devs making changes.

[foxAsteria]

And by the way, the consensus resulting from tidbits here and there escaping from tight lips, is that Cockos doesn't follow any typical business model.

From what I can glean it's more of a personal project to them and they simply won't work on things they don't find interesting or useful to them. Reaper development in other words, is internally driven by nature.

The silver lining is that we know for a fact they read the forums (rarely, if ever responding) and thus there always exists a chance to influence their direction. Just not like this.

[5ynth3t1k]

Originally Posted by pcp

Hard to have it both ways though. REAPER clearly isn't a committee or focus-group-driven project. Justin, Schwa and WT all have stubborn, strong opinions, and a vision of what the software should be. But the devs do clearly monitor and implement FRs and bug reports made on this forum.

Trying a vanilla REAPER install wouldn't be very useful to me nor do I think it would say much about anything other than the 'out of the box' experience (which I agree could be improved for new electronic/MIDI musicians especially). Running stock, do I have to use Reasynth instead of my VST collection? I'm more swayed by the fact that REAPER runs my VSTs more reliably, with lower latency and fewer graphical glitches (once everything's configured) than any other DAW I've tried, and with more powerful routing. Scripts are the same thing to me, and I'd rather the devs focus on bullet-proofing and extending their API than integrating everything natively. Who cares if no two REAPER installs are the same? Do you install apps on your phone or keep everything "vanilla"?

That said, core navigational features like zooming and adaptive grid are IMO best implemented natively .

And I don't disagree with your zooming critique, but by attitude I mean that announcing you'll effectively spam the forum daily and then doing so in response to another user's helpful post, is likely to be counter-productive. The Ferropop/bFooz feature request and proof of concept script are the focus group you are looking for, and much more likely to result in the devs making changes.

Trying reaper vanilla is not about being useful to you. It's about removing all your mods scripts etc and feeling the vanilla experience. When actually was the last time you did that? You install once, build up your scripts etc and upgrade as you go. It is easy to forget what it looks like vanilla.

Yes reaper has many good features: Running old x32 instruments and effects is a major one for me, but this does not that some basic functions should be totally ignored. Navigating around the project and the midi clips is really annoying. Actually it's the same if you are not using midi so those are moot points. They happen to everyone.

and yes core features should be baked in BUT the problem is whose ideals are going to drive that? If someone on the dev team is mad for the zoom creep then it's going to stay for ever. Which would be a real shame.

Like all tools they have to be designed by people that use them, not just the people who make them. This sometimes creates a happy synergy where designers and end users work together to refine and make etter. F-16 side stick springs to mind.( they used load cells that had no give so it felt dead to use, pilot input ( see what I did there ) aksed for some give and they made the stick act more like a mechanical one. )

I'm not rolling my "thats right" stance. Forgive me for being bull headed but a spade is a spade in my world and I have tried to talk about this before and well nothing happened , I was more polite back then.

Imagine using a tape machine that if you held the rervse button down too long it would fast reverse to the begining, and you can't stop it. How annoying would that be? and it yanks the lead out of the take spool....

Actually apprecieate you chiming in. Thank you.

Actually I am starting to get "zoom creep" gun shy.

Here is a strange thing:

I use an indented scroll wheel.
If I go one click out too far the project creeps left.
If I go one click in it zooms in normally.
If I go one click out again it zooms out normally.
Then if I go one click out again it creeps left.

So it's incrementing out by one click.
What this means is that you can never trust where the creep left will occur. This is bad.

If we went back to flying an air plane this is like having a constantly changing stall angle.
for the same density altitude etc etc. That might be pushing the analogy envelope bit far....

I may have burnt out my rage over this. grrrr...


But why! Shakes fists to the sky.

5yn.

[pcp]

Ha yes ... I mean, the fact REAPER is so customisable in general makes it somehow way more frustrating when it doesn't do what I want or expect. I used to use Ableton and S1 and there are basically very few things you can fundamentally change about the navigation behaviour (though there are shonky third party AHK scripts for each that enable middle-mouse-button panning/zooming). The answer for those DAWs is very much "suck it up" -- but better zooming/grid behaviour OOTB.

"Zoom Creep", hmm I'm not sure about your name though, it makes me think of Jeffrey Toobin...

[hexSPA]

You know what they say: respond to the content, not the tone.

I never thought of calling this 'inchworm zoom' but that's a good name for it.

I've kind of gotten used to it now but I'm sure they could improve it.

[Fergler]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Is this particular to a zoom mode (cursor, centre of view, mouse cursor)?

Zooming is fine here on mouse cursor. It zooms to where my mouse is, no less no more.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by Fergler

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Is this particular to a zoom mode (cursor, centre of view, mouse cursor)?

Zooming is fine here on mouse cursor. It zooms to where my mouse is, no less no more.

Can you zoom to tempo 1 (per example) without struggles as I showed in previous post?
I can’t put easily my mouse in tempo 1 and without moving even a tiny bit my mouse. And I don’t shaking issues in my hands.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by pcp

Nice feature request actually. I would totally use the option to "Horizontal Zoom to mouse cursor (nearest grid division)."
Though in practice maybe that would not behave that differently given I use FTC's Adaptive Grid script (which when it comes to zooming, is another essential IMO - it makes the real grid, with snapping and note insertion and all, change when you zoom in and out, and not just the visual representation of the grid).

From what I see from that ftc script does in someway what I would expect … which is the division I am focus do not change position so I don’t have to repoint my mouse to zoom in or zoom out many times

[pcp]

Originally Posted by deeb

From what I see from that ftc script does in someway what I would expect … which is the division I am focus do not change position so I don’t have to repoint my mouse to zoom in or zoom out many times

Indeed, the Adaptive Grid script works great and I mentioned it more in the spirit of... if the devs are in the mood to work on zooming and grid snapping, a decent solution is probably also going to involve having a proper adaptive grid with grid snapping and note insertion linked to visibility.

I also forget that Amagalma's 'editing guide under cursor' script isn't native. That's awesome too and helps guide the eye and reduce general confusion (my normal state of being). With these scripts, and bFooz's zoom-out limiter, and a middle mouse button overloaded with zoom modifiers, I can really enjoy flying around REAPER. Without them....?

[deeb]

Originally Posted by Fergler

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Is this particular to a zoom mode (cursor, centre of view, mouse cursor)?

Zooming is fine here on mouse cursor. It zooms to where my mouse is, no less no more.

yeah but reaper changes time line position and so we struggle with where our timeline focus was landed after each zoom action. If i scroll with zoom mode to cursor at 16 beat, the 16 beat should keep in same position and so stay under my focused mouse position. This way next zoom in or out action that most likely be in same beat will happen in the same place, so no need to move cursor to another place because it ain’t move my focused beat. in practice is simple.

As reaper zooming works now is confusing for eyes and tiring.