Old 03-14-2016, 02:19 PM   #81
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Win10 is the first Windows in my house in almost a decade.
Your house must have been dark for years :P
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Old 03-14-2016, 02:20 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by avocadomix View Post
Karbo:

"To enable Cortana to provide personalized experiences and relevant suggestions, Microsoft collects and uses various types of data, such as your device location, data from your calendar, the apps you use, data from your emails and text messages, who you call, your contacts and how often you interact with them on your device.

Cortana also learns about you by collecting data about how you use your device and other Microsoft services, such as your music, alarm settings, whether the lock screen is on, what you view and purchase, your browse and Bing search history, and more."

Note the "and more".

Source:
http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2015...wind-nos/#gref
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/w...tana-on-or-off

Problem solved.
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Old 03-14-2016, 02:21 PM   #83
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Your house must have been dark for years :P
Try the veal!

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Old 03-14-2016, 02:31 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by avocadomix View Post
Karbo:

"To enable Cortana to provide personalized experiences and relevant suggestions, Microsoft collects and uses various types of data, such as your device location, data from your calendar, the apps you use, data from your emails and text messages, who you call, your contacts and how often you interact with them on your device.

Cortana also learns about you by collecting data about how you use your device and other Microsoft services, such as your music, alarm settings, whether the lock screen is on, what you view and purchase, your browse and Bing search history, and more."

Note the "and more".

Source:
http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2015...wind-nos/#gref
That's describing what info Cortana uses (mostly from an AI perspective) in order provide its features and has nothing to do with sharing your personal contacts or your personal data with others and everything to do with telling you how it is used for your own personal use. Not much different than the "we store data on our servers" when using OneDrive - because that's what OneDrive does, stores data in the cloud; or lock screen and other settings so it can be synced on your other devices - It stores them in your OneDrive account and pulls them down for you.

Sure you can say "they have it, they 'could' use it to do bad things" (even though it is highly encrypted) but that isn't what the text actually states nor what it means but you can just click no when Cortana pops up for the first time, and/or not even use a MS account and you avoid 99% of all of this if you are that worried about it. Thusly using that as proof of what P9 said is irrelevant...

Quote:
Anybody I am in contact with who has windows10 is probably giving MS my personal data through their contacts list.
I'm still waiting on a salient explanation to exactly how ^that happens and where he came to that conclusion and to clarify just what "personal data" he is speaking of since that term has a definition. Also, I respect P9 greatly so I'm not trying to give him a hard time but the claim needs some real meat due to it's severity and implications; not just repeating what "tech correspondents" say who's entire purpose in life is spin for page click's sake.
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Old 03-14-2016, 02:32 PM   #85
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Your house must have been dark for years :P
But he's had DAWs.







(Here in Oz daw & door sound exactly the same...)
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Old 03-14-2016, 03:24 PM   #86
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Try the veal!

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Originally Posted by alanofoz View Post
But he's had DAWs.







(Here in Oz daw & door sound exactly the same...)
*thumbs up* lol
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Old 03-14-2016, 04:22 PM   #87
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That's telling you what info Cortana uses (mostly from an AI perspective) in order provide its features and has nothing to do with sharing your personal contacts or your personal data with others and everything to do with telling you how it is used for your own personal use.
This is your interpretation. What the text actually says is that "Microsoft collects and uses various types of data, such as...". Perhaps you will agree that this text is not some negligent mistake. It had been carefully crafted and reviewed by multiple instances. If Microsoft wanted to make you calm, it would say that collected data would not be used for any other purpose than improving Cortana's suggestions to you. And that this data would not be shared with any third party, maybe with some exclusions such as law enforcement. Does it say this? No. Unless you have a quote.

Quote:
Not much different than the "we store data on our servers" when using OneDrive - because that's what OneDrive does, stores data in the cloud; or lock screen and other settings so it can be synced on your other devices - It stores them in your OneDrive account and pulls them down for you.
Again, this is your interpretation. What they say is that they store *and* use that data. And they don't say in a clear and legally binding way what they mean by "use". Again, it would be naive to think that Microsoft didn't clarify this by negligence. So...

Quote:
Sure you can say "they have it, they 'could' use it to do bad things" (even though it is highly encrypted) but that isn't what the text actually states nor what it means but you can just click no when Cortana pops up for the first time, and/or not even use a MS account and you avoid 99% of all of this if you are that worried about it. Thusly using what you quoted as proof of what P9 said is irrelevant...
If you mean this quote by P9:
Quote:
Anybody I am in contact with who has windows10 is probably giving MS my personal data through their contacts list.
then this quote (stripped of interpretations) states this same thing very clearly:
Quote:
Microsoft collects and uses various types of data, such as... your contacts ...
I just can't see what you find in it that's even slightly ambiguous.
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:03 PM   #88
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Yeah, perhaps this solves the Cortana problem. At least concerning your computer. You still can't opt out of being uploaded, stored and "used" by Microsoft from other people's computers. Which was the point of planetnine.

And then, Micosoft has other means of collecting data about you on Win10 besides Cortana. Now you can go ahead and dive into literally dozens of obscure menus and get all of that turned off. But that will not necessarily set Microsoft back for long, since it might by some weird error just reset some of those privacy settings to their [permissive] defaults:
http://arstechnica.com/information-t...-its-now-back/

To Microsoft's honor, it pulled the update once this behavior had been reported. Will this never happen again? Who knows. It has, so maybe it will.

Furthermore, since Win10 is a rolling release, new features will inevitably be added. And considering Microsoft's "telemetry" record, we will see more of this as we go.

So be vigilant. Or just relax and take the "blue pill" :-)
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:12 PM   #89
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Personally I couldn't care less about what data they're mining from me, I just don't want my software being uninstalled or updates being performed when I'm in the middle of doing stuff
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:16 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by avocadomix View Post
This is your interpretation.
Knowing how these particular components work make it obvious that that statement must be there for those features to actually work. That alone makes it's inclusion required and your interpretation only an added assumption on top of that core need at this point. It should be completely obvious those features by their very nature require that data (as in files/settings etc.) to be stored on "a server". Sincere, question... Do you actually fully understand what that feature does?

Quote:
I just can't see what you find in it that's even slightly ambiguous.
That's because you have to fill in blanks to make it so, but we don't have to fill in blanks to show that statement backs up how the feature actually works which is a subtle but critical distinction. If Cortana and it's sister components didn't require server use to function, you'd have my attention but that isn't the case.

I've debugged (debugged and debunked) quite a few of these in my spare time and got tired of being sent on wild goose chases. I won't be chasing these down anymore, do your own debugging.
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:19 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by avocadomix View Post
"To enable Cortana to provide personalized experiences and relevant suggestions, Microsoft collects and uses various types of data, such as your device location, data from your calendar, the apps you use, data from your emails and text messages, who you call, your contacts and how often you interact with them on your device.
So if you do not agree, you disable Cortana. Do you have a problem with a companies secretary having access to her bosses email, his contacts (private information) and calendar?

How does any of this lead to the conclusion Microsoft has access to any of this data outside Cortana? Exactly because of the fact some services (like Cortana) have access to personal information access to data centers and the systems in them are extremely tight and security is beyond crazy.

If you have a problem with your (personal) information (and no, your email is not one of those, it is a public address just like your house address). Please stay away from anything Google, Apple or even anything that goes on inside a browser. Never use credit cards online, never use any sort of form, never fill out any questionnaire to get that cool free VST or gadget.

Stop being paranoid..
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:24 PM   #92
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Yeah, perhaps this solves the Cortana problem. At least concerning your computer. You still can't opt out of being uploaded, stored and "used" by Microsoft from other people's computers. Which was the point of planetnine.
So, with Cortana now disabled, exactly how is some other person you know sharing those contacts? Albeit the statement doesn't say that without making assumptions, let's play along anyway.

Ref:
Quote:
Anybody I am in contact with who has windows10 is probably giving MS my personal data through their contacts list
What he is expressing is his fear that even without his owning Windows 10 he is at risk of his data being sent by his friends. Maybe I should set P9 up with a windows 10 VM and let him see for himself because it is obvious he's a little in the dark here.
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:24 PM   #93
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Personally I couldn't care less about what data they're mining from me, I just don't want my software being uninstalled or updates being performed when I'm in the middle of doing stuff
That won't happen, anyone telling you differently is not knowing what they are talking about. Besides IMO on a production environment one should use PRO anyway..
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:32 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Knowing how these particular components work make it obvious that that statement must be there for those features to actually work. That makes it's inclusion solid and your interpretation only an assumption at this point. It should be completely obvious those features by their very nature require that data (as in files/settings etc.) to be stored on "a server".
Of course they do! You are correct. Now let's go back to the point: they say that they collect, store and use your data. Where do they say what they use it for in a legally binding way?

Quote:
I've debugged (debugged and debunked) quite a few of these in my spare time and got tired of being sent on wild goose chases. I won't be chasing these down anymore, do your own debugging.
I've made my homework and brought you the fruit. You can refuse to consume it, but then don't ask for another one ;-)
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:43 PM   #95
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Ouch, that's some expensive hardware to become unusable
Yes siree! Really annoys/angers me. I keep checking their site to see if they've learned how to move up to, at least, 8.1 - but, nope. Still only supporting 7, SP 1.

I also own a UA 410-7D, which I absolutely love. But knowing what I know now about their philosophy on UAD Quad software, I wouldn't have bought any of their stuff and would have instead invested the money in something else.
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:45 PM   #96
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Of course they do! You are correct. Now let's go back to the point: they say that they collect, store and use your data. Where do they say what they use it for in a legally binding way?
So you understand and agree it has to be there, thank you. You might check out the non-Cortana sections of the privacy policy on how information is used; that's closer to what you are going for and you'll find better wording and evidence to support your fears.


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I've made my homework and brought you the fruit. You can refuse to consume it, but then don't ask for another one ;-)
Sorry, that's called making empty claims then expecting someone else do your work for you. I already did my work, now it's your turn to bring substance to the table. You are really, really late btw, this is all old as hell.
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:46 PM   #97
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Sorry, that's called making empty claims then expecting someone else do your work for you. I already did my work, now it's your turn to bring substance to the table.
+1000
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:48 PM   #98
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So, with Cortana now disabled, exactly how is some other person you know sharing those contacts? Albeit the statement doesn't say that without making assumptions, let's play along anyway.
Well, you undoubtedly understand that when you disable Cortana on your computer, this doesn't have a global effect, right? So other people who run Win10 and have you as their contact on their computer (outlook for example) will still share information about you with Microsoft... Unless they disabled Cortana, too.


Quote:
What he is expressing is his fear that even without his owning Windows 10 he is at risk of his data being sent by his friends. Maybe I should set P9 up with a windows 10 VM and let him see for himself because it is obvious he's a little in the dark here.
How would he tell what's going on in Microsoft's data centers by looking at the OS?
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:49 PM   #99
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I also own a UA 410-7D, which I absolutely love. But knowing what I know now about their philosophy on UAD Quad software, I wouldn't have bought any of their stuff and would have instead invested the money in something else.
No don't do that. I have a 4-170D, keep it. They are a hardware company at heart which is a completely different story IMHO.
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:51 PM   #100
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Well, you undoubtedly understand that when you disable Cortana on your computer, this doesn't have a global effect, right? So other people who run Win10 and have you as their contact on their computer (outlook for example) will still share information about you with Microsoft... Unless they disabled Cortana, too.



How would he tell what's going on in Microsoft's data centers by looking at the OS?
Think about it.
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:00 PM   #101
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That won't happen, anyone telling you differently is not knowing what they are talking about. Besides IMO on a production environment one should use PRO anyway..
So the people who are saying Windows 10 is removing programmes from their PCs (including people on this forum) are lying?
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:02 PM   #102
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So the people who are saying Windows 10 is removing programmes from their PCs (including people on this forum) are lying?
more than likely they are ignorant of what is actually happening.
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:04 PM   #103
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more than likely they are ignorant of what is actually happening.
So what is happening then?
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:04 PM   #104
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So if you do not agree, you disable Cortana. Do you have a problem with a companies secretary having access to her bosses email, his contacts (private information) and calendar?

How does any of this lead to the conclusion Microsoft has access to any of this data outside Cortana? Exactly because of the fact some services (like Cortana) have access to personal information access to data centers and the systems in them are extremely tight and security is beyond crazy.

If you have a problem with your (personal) information (and no, your email is not one of those, it is a public address just like your house address). Please stay away from anything Google, Apple or even anything that goes on inside a browser. Never use credit cards online, never use any sort of form, never fill out any questionnaire to get that cool free VST or gadget.

Stop being paranoid..
Thanks for all the suggestions, but my personal attitude to privacy issues is not the topic in this discussion. The topic is a general question of whether Microsoft preserves the right to collect and use personal data for any purpose it sees fit or no. I've provided Microsoft's own words for that, clearly stating that they do in fact collect and use the data and *not* stating clearly what for. No restrictions. They explain why they collect the data, they don't say how it will be used. If you want to take part in this discussion then you should understand that we are discussing a legal document and it should be evaluated from the legal point of view.
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:12 PM   #105
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Think about it.
Hmm, perhaps he would see the ads in the start menu and love them!
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:17 PM   #106
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No restrictions. They explain why they collect the data, they don't say how it will be used.
Sure they do...

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/w...na-privacy-faq

I'm guessing you are far too dug in on the debate piece to do anything other than find any omission you can (that's OK, I dug in some too ) and I'm not telling you your bing searches (or Google or most anyone else) won't result in your Amazon page showing similar items; but none of that qualifies as your personal info being shared to the underworld by someone who has you as a contact on their Windows 10 machine which is the only reason I replied. And yes, I prefer to be very specific because otherwise, it's just a cat herding experiment geared to get people riled up with no real value.
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Old 03-14-2016, 06:50 PM   #107
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Sure they do...

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/w...na-privacy-faq

I'm guessing you are far too dug in on the debate piece to do anything other than find any omission you can (that's OK) and I'm not telling you your bing searches (or Google or most anyone else) won't result in your Amazon page showing similar items; but none of that qualifies as your personal info being shared to the underworld by someone who has you as a contact on their Windows 10 machine which is the only reason I replied. And yes, I prefer to be very specific because otherwise, it's just a cat herding experiment geared to get people riled up with no real value.
Yep, looked at it, it's full of legal holes and doesn't really answer the question of how Microsoft uses the collected data and whether there are any restrictions.
Example:

Quote:
Does Microsoft or Bing plan to use any of the data that Cortana gathers to sell advertising or otherwise mine information?
No, Cortana doesn’t use the information you share with Cortana to send you targeted ads. Ads may accompany search results that Cortana delivers—just as they do when you do a search on Bing.com.
Look closely at the question and then at the answer. Isn't it a little strange that, strictly speaking (ie from the legal perspective), the answer is not answering the actual question?
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Old 03-14-2016, 08:49 PM   #108
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more than likely they are ignorant of what is actually happening.
Jason, people all over the net in multiple publications are reporting that a Win 10 update removed user installed programs. Try googling "Win 10 update removes programs"
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Old 03-14-2016, 10:05 PM   #109
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Try googling "Win 10 update removes programs"
That search doesn't seem produce much of a result concerning 'all over the net' fyi. Not disagreeing, just noticing it isn't a good search term. Here an actual reference with some actual details...

http://www.howtogeek.com/243581/wind...ithout-asking/
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Old 03-15-2016, 01:43 AM   #110
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That is really funny - I had just copied the same link and was about to post it.
So it seems that this all boils down to the Nov 2015 update being flawed & the "removed" software was simply moved to the windows.old directory.

Doesnt sound quite so sinister now, does it?
MS are like anyone else - they make mistakes. Because they operate on a grand scale, the fallout from their mistakes can be pretty far-reaching.

But this particular little peccadillo isnt new to Win10, it has always been there.
I myself have had trouble back on win7 with MS deciding my Nvidia GFX card drivers needed updating with THEIR version, which predictably broke my machine.

People have short memories when it suits them.
As far as I could see from googling as instructed, Win10 is no better and no worse than any other Windows version in this respect.
But why let reality get in the way of a good conspiracy theory, eh?
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Old 03-15-2016, 03:08 AM   #111
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That is really funny - I had just copied the same link and was about to post it.
So it seems that this all boils down to the Nov 2015 update being flawed & the "removed" software was simply moved to the windows.old directory.

Doesnt sound quite so sinister now, does it?
MS are like anyone else - they make mistakes. Because they operate on a grand scale, the fallout from their mistakes can be pretty far-reaching.

But this particular little peccadillo isnt new to Win10, it has always been there.
I myself have had trouble back on win7 with MS deciding my Nvidia GFX card drivers needed updating with THEIR version, which predictably broke my machine.

People have short memories when it suits them.
As far as I could see from googling as instructed, Win10 is no better and no worse than any other Windows version in this respect.
But why let reality get in the way of a good conspiracy theory, eh?
No other Windows version has even had the ability to remove 3rd party apps without asking.

If, in 4 years, that's still the only time it ever did it then I'd take it as a mistake that isn't likely to happen often. Until then I'll let others be the guinea pigs.
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Old 03-15-2016, 03:28 AM   #112
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That link from Ivan again.
http://www.howtogeek.com/243581/windows-10-may-delete-your-programs-without-asking/

As I stated before no commercial programs have been removed (just tiny, free app's - mostly inconsequential- hardware utilities that can easily be reinstalled) and this issue only rears it's head during major updates, the service packs/builds.

Microsoft aren't about to commit commercial suicide. They have competition, they know that it would severely damage their reputation if they started removing important retail products. Sure they could even afford the lawsuits but not the volume of negative publicity that would drive the mainstream home users to Apple and mobile devices. It would be a gift to Linux developers too.

They really ought to flag up what they remove though. I bet they debated this one, and clearly they came to the wrong decision.
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Old 03-15-2016, 03:30 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Stews View Post
No other Windows version has even had the ability to remove 3rd party apps without asking.

If, in 4 years, that's still the only time it ever did it then I'd take it as a mistake that isn't likely to happen often. Until then I'll let others be the guinea pigs.
Just to be clear, one of those apps CPUZ, constantly BSOD'd my box so I know that list of apps had potentially serious side-effects by remaining. It should probably fail the upgrade completely or provide a message that it removed them post upgrade. So you are right it should ask but it isn't Guinea pigging you, its' a actually the opposite albeit a warning would have been a good idea.
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Old 03-15-2016, 03:46 AM   #114
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The mere possibility of a user space app BSODing your computer should be embarrassing these days, for Microsoft or Nvidia or whoever is responsible for the bug.

BSODs should only happen at kernel level (NOT able to be triggered by a user space app due to a bug in a driver) or because of faulty hardware. Microsoft protecting you from their own stupid code is not what I'd call "Good" in the first place, how about fix the bug instead?
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Old 03-15-2016, 04:05 AM   #115
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While a BSOD mat be triggered by the driver, the cause of the trigger may well be the application making assumptions or otherwise not following guidelines.

The generalization that a BSOD is a low-level issue and thus MSFT's problem is just silly.
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Old 03-15-2016, 04:16 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Just to be clear, one of those apps CPUZ, constantly BSOD'd my box so I know that list of apps had potentially serious side-effects by remaining. It should probably fail the upgrade completely or provide a message that it removed them post upgrade. So you are right it should ask but it isn't Guinea pigging you, its' a actually the opposite albeit a warning would have been a good idea.
Do you know if it works by black listing problematic apps or white listing compatible ones?
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Old 03-15-2016, 04:20 AM   #117
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Trouble is, the nice folks who selflessly dig into the low level code of the OS and incidentally ignore a lot of programming "no-no"s might be offering utilities that MS haven`t provided, but if the short cuts, hacks and back doors etc that they utilise break the stability of the actual OS, I for one can see perfectly well WHY MS would prefer to remove the offending code to a place of safety rather than risking it buggering up peoples computers.

I used to use a fair few of them myself, including cpu-z and the piriform stuff but dropped the lot because I WAS getting issues that seemed to be caused by them.
So far no problems with Sisoft Sandra, which appears to do a good job AND obey the OS rules.
Same goes for many of the free "service" utilites like iobit`s offerings & thus far CrapCleaner, which has always kept up with new OS releases.
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Old 03-15-2016, 04:21 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stews View Post
Do you know if it works by black listing problematic apps or white listing compatible ones?
Not sure if it stayed that way but I asked this question when beta testing 7 to 8 & was told it was a combination of both.
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Old 03-15-2016, 04:26 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenz View Post
The mere possibility of a user space app BSODing your computer should be embarrassing these days, for Microsoft or Nvidia or whoever is responsible for the bug.

BSODs should only happen at kernel level (NOT able to be triggered by a user space app due to a bug in a driver) or because of faulty hardware. Microsoft protecting you from their own stupid code is not what I'd call "Good" in the first place, how about fix the bug instead?
Bit naive, Kenz. You are assuming that the "rogue" applications are NOT using hacks.
In my somewhat limited experience at that level, almost all of the devs of system query tools and the like ARE exploiting "undocumented features" and flouting the rules for devs. That is how it happens.
Remember "peek" and "poke"? this was the foundation on which all this shizzle developed.
Tough to make a watertight OS AND guard against virus attacks and other vulnerabilities, let alone exploits like this.
All the hackers have to worry about is if their hack worked or not.
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Old 03-15-2016, 05:13 AM   #120
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I have a relative programming in IT. Sometimes companies get away with back door hacks to force/botch compatibility/installers, layers of hardware access where there should be none.

This could be tolerated/unnoticed in applications for several years.
They get the warnings and some time down the line changes are made in the operating system for security and these operations no longer work.

As consumers of these products where the developer may have used hacks to get their product to work in a non secure environment we are most likely completely unaware of those shenanigans.

Microsoft should tell us when they remove these dodgy app's, and briefly explain why it had to be done. Then the tin foil hat guys can get back to Lizard men and illuminati.
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