Old 11-24-2014, 07:29 PM   #1
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Default The Carousel

How's this sounding?

All I can hear is the ringing in my ears....

The Carousel

All criticisms welcome. Give it to me with both barrels.

Last edited by Fex; 11-24-2014 at 07:44 PM. Reason: llamas.
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Old 11-24-2014, 08:10 PM   #2
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I think the song needs more space... make more room for the vocal... the voice is good enough to stand on its own but it's hard to make out all te words in places... can hear enough f the words to get te general drift, though...

...secondly, it needs more space for the instruments, maybe some movement in them... do you have the effects necessary to widen them and separate them with distance forward and back?

I think the instrumental part is too long... maybe another verse, maybe repeat an existing verse... overall, though, the song is too long without space and movement

it's definitely a song... and it's got a valid point of view

.
the song does not taint my spirit, but I'd enjoy it more if I had more room in it to breathe

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Old 11-24-2014, 08:13 PM   #3
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I dig it... a lot! Much of it would go really great with some heroic type film scene as in a backdrop for something visually special and emotional.
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Old 11-24-2014, 08:22 PM   #4
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Thanks, guys....

Quote:
Originally Posted by flickervetigo View Post
do you have the effects necessary to widen them and separate them with distance forward and back?
The effects.... probably. The skillz.... probably not. Ultimately, someone else is going to have to mix it for me, I think.

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I think the instrumental part is too long... maybe another verse, maybe repeat an existing verse...
I thought someone would say that.... and I can completely relate to that point of view. The thing is, I do like the arrangement as it is, complete with its irritating repetition. I'll probably rework it only if a lot of people who might otherwise like the thing insist that it's necessary. This has already happened once....
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Old 11-24-2014, 09:01 PM   #5
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you can fool around with JS:SStillwell/flangebaby for a quick experiment on widening... knock the flange down, leaves you with a nice widening effect, but dominant delay and pan to the left, no option on the pan, so if you want one instrument wide but just barely left, and another instrument wide and just barely right, you're stuck

must be a way around that,
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Old 11-24-2014, 11:19 PM   #6
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soundcloud version sounds better to me... is that soundcloud processing or did you change something?
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Old 11-25-2014, 01:26 AM   #7
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f*ckin oregonians... what can you expect?

"all that remains is the arms of the angels"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJpfK7l404I

.

Had a dream, you and me and the war of the end times
And I believe California succumbed to the fault line
We heaved relief as scores of innocents died

And the Andalusian tribes
Setting the lay of Nebraska alight
'Til all that remain is the arms of the angels

Hetty Green, queen of supply-side bonhomie bone-drab
Know what I mean?
On the road, it's well advised that you follow your own bag
In the year of the chewable Ambien tab

And the Panamanian child
Stands at the dowager empress' side
And all that remain is the arms of the angels
And all that remain is the arms of the angels

When you've receded into loam
And they're picking at your bones
We'll come home

Quiet now, will we gather to conjure the rain down?
Will we now build a civilization below ground?
And I'll be crowned the community kick-it-around

And the Andalusian tribes
Setting the lay of Nebraska alight
'Til all that remain is the arms of the angels
.

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Old 11-25-2014, 03:27 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flickervetigo View Post
soundcloud version sounds better to me... is that soundcloud processing or did you change something?
It's SoundCloud processing. I'd love to know what they do to them. It probably does sound better, but I would much prefer transparency.

The Decembrists vid is not available in my stoopid country.
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:37 PM   #9
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That was nice, thank you, almost gave me a Syd Barret-vibe, could be your voice...
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:51 PM   #10
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Thanks Jorgen. Not too repetitive for your taste, then?

I should say, I've updated the file since flickervetigo's last post, and I'm still tweaking now. I'm not sure if it's getting better or worse....
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
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...I'm not sure if it's getting better or worse....
better, no doubt
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:28 PM   #12
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i was listening and wondered why i didn't hear any of the things FV was saying, but when I read the later comments, i see that you've since uploaded a new file.
I've no personal nits except the song started losing me around the 4:30 mark. I feel right around there would have been the perfect spot to end.
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:38 PM   #13
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The problem with this mix is that I want everything louder than everything else (except the vox, which I'd like to bury under a rock).

Anyway, I've been playing with the levels to bring out some subtle elements, I changed the main reverb, rejigged the compression (I have very little idea what I'm doing there) and I've widened such elements as can be easily widened, but there's really not much I can do there.

I've re-upped. Unless someone points out something really, terribly wrong (which is not unlikely), I'm really going to have to leave this bastard thing alone now....
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:41 PM   #14
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I've no personal nits except the song started losing me around the 4:30 mark. I feel right around there would have been the perfect spot to end.
At one point, it did. It felt unfinished to me.

Thanks for listening.
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Old 11-25-2014, 07:30 PM   #15
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Well, as much as I respect the opinions of sammydix and flickervetigo, I will stick my neck out and say that I really like it this long.

The instrumental is cool, it develops well enough to stay interesting.

Nice organic drum sound too, good sequencing and kit.
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish View Post
I will stick my neck out and say that I really like it this long.
Ah, splendid - it's not just me, then!
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Nice organic drum sound too, good sequencing and kit.
That'll be because I used one of them real drummer things (well, people, technically, I suppose). Of the percussion, only the timpani are sampled. What I'd programmed for drums was uninspired (I'd never tried to write drums in 6/8 before) so I instructed the drummer to disregard it. What he came up with is great.... but not at all easy for me to mix!

Thanks for listening.
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:14 PM   #17
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That'll be because I used one of them real drummer things (well, people, technically, I suppose).
A person you mean!?!

It sounded almost as artificial as the cello, which I guess means your programming is not too bad either.
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Old 11-25-2014, 08:20 PM   #18
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It sounded almost as artificial as the cello, which I guess means your programming is not too bad either.
It is only slightly less artificial than the cello, which was also played by a flesh device. It's a little worrying that you think they both sound fake....
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Old 11-26-2014, 01:58 AM   #19
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Go to gearslutz:
"Whats the best meatware cellist for under $100"
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Old 11-26-2014, 04:18 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fex View Post
It is only slightly less artificial than the cello, which was also played by a flesh device. It's a little worrying that you think they both sound fake....
Flesh cello too? Aren't there any real fake things on there?
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Old 11-26-2014, 04:39 AM   #21
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Look, don't get me wrong, I love working with good fleshware too. I really did enjoy what they did, and what you achieved on the tune.
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Old 11-26-2014, 05:05 AM   #22
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Flesh cello too? Aren't there any real fake things on there?
Of course there are!
It's all relative, of course.... the music box sound probably came from a real music box originally, while the cello is so heavily processed, it's not nearly as real as it used to be.

Real fake electric piano
Real fake drawbar organ
Real fake synth (just one note)
Real fake calliope x 2
Fake fake calliope x 1
Fake fake music box
Fake fake oboe
Fake fake timpani
Fake fake Mellotron
Me trying to sing (I'm totally phony)
Real real piano
Real real drums
Real real guitar x 2
Real real cello
Real real violin
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Old 11-26-2014, 05:22 AM   #23
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Look, don't get me wrong, I love working with good fleshware too. I really did enjoy what they did, and what you achieved on the tune.
This is good to know!

I tried a demo of a fake cello once - Kontakt, or some such - which sounded AWESOME. Then I heard the same cello on a friend's demo, with the articulations all FUBAR. There's a lot of work involved in getting those things to sound real. For this sort of project, if you're going to fake it, you might as well use freeware.

I Googled "session cellist" or similar, and hired the only one I could find (this was a few years ago) to record a couple of pieces at home. She couldn't figure out how to record higher than 16 bit, but otherwise, it all worked out rather well, I think.
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:39 AM   #24
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I like the song. three things though:
1) crank up the vocal volume!!
2) crank up the vocal volume!!
3) I Think a crescendo at 5'ish would make it better.
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Old 11-26-2014, 11:11 AM   #25
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Good stuff.... thanks for listening.
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Originally Posted by msundh View Post
1) crank up the vocal volume!!
No!
Quote:
2) crank up the vocal volume!!
Bloody hell. Do I have to? Is it just the second verse?
Apart from the fact that I sound like a strangled dog, that track is terribly silibant, and my attempts to fix this have only made it worse....
I might re-record it at some point. I got the words a bit wrong.
Quote:
3) I Think a crescendo at 5'ish would make it better.
Interesting.... I might attempt to implement this. The question is, what would crescendo? I guess it would have to be the mellotron, which comes with a truckload of distortion.... hmmm.....
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Old 11-26-2014, 11:44 AM   #26
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Quote:
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... a strangled dog...
are you refusing to face the truth about your voice? ...because it sounds plenty good to me, and if you had to cheat to get it to sound like that, it was a pretty good job of cheating

the problem is, when your neurosis about the quality of your voice interferes with the song, that's not good

.

granted, there are people who shouldn't be allowed within a millon miles of a microphone, and it has nothing to do with their ability to stay on pitch... it's just the basic quality of their voice, the haremonics or whtever

as far as I can hear, ou don't have that problem
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Old 11-26-2014, 12:12 PM   #27
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in the sixties, bob Dylan made it acceptable to have a crummy voice... but he had the songs, and I cant escape the feeling he was serving some kind of political agenda..

the talent pol has expanded and so has the screening process... seems like nowadays you got to have a fairly decent voice to get in the game...



.
len chandler says to me, "well, it depends on the political mood of the country..."

...which was a lie, of course... it depends on the political mood of the social engineers who are doing the screening

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Old 11-26-2014, 03:35 PM   #28
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Poor bloke can't post a song on the forum without getting harried by the philosophers.

Or is it just blow back from being so opinionated himself?

So, first thing I would do to this mix wise would be de-ess and bring up the vocals, especially places where the cello is masking them. A nice way to de-ess in REAPER is to use ReaEQ with parameter modulation on a side chain.

I have two instances of ReaEQ on the vocal track, and add a channel in to the track routing for the side chain. The first instance is a 'trigger' and it has the problem band boosted. That sends to the 'de-ess' instance listening on the side channel. Tune the dynamic EQ with the Parameter Modulation attack and release times and the strength fader. I have found this can get fairly transparent results.

Last edited by hamish; 11-26-2014 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 11-26-2014, 06:03 PM   #29
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Sounds great, Fex. Lots of ideas in there, so it compelled to listen. Well mixed, your voice doesn't sound as bad as you think.
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:01 PM   #30
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dont know what this video has to do with anything, but it's so american and so very sad...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHeK0Cwr9sg

.

...driving around beverly hills looking for a producer... chandler had made an appointment, gave me the address, but i lost the scrap of paper the address was on... thought i remembered enough of the address to make a stab at finding it, but gave up and called chandler... he wouldnt give me the address

he says, "you just didnt want to do it, steve..."

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Old 11-27-2014, 05:59 AM   #31
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Poor bloke can't post a song on the forum without getting harried by the philosophers.

Or is it just blow back from being so opinionated himself?
Very possibly. There's nothing wrong with that in my book. I can take it, and i can dish it out.
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So, first thing I would do to this mix wise would be de-ess and bring up the vocals, especially places where the cello is masking them. A nice way to de-ess in REAPER is to use ReaEQ with parameter modulation on a side chain.

I have two instances of ReaEQ on the vocal track, and add a channel in to the track routing for the side chain. The first instance is a 'trigger' and it has the problem band boosted. That sends to the 'de-ess' instance listening on the side channel. Tune the dynamic EQ with the Parameter Modulation attack and release times and the strength fader. I have found this can get fairly transparent results.
Thanks for that. This is new territory for me. I think you just showed me a days work. Perhaps tomorrow - I need to give this a rest, and I want to work on fun stuff today.

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are you refusing to face the truth about your voice? ...because it sounds plenty good to me, and if you had to cheat to get it to sound like that, it was a pretty good job of cheating
Of course I cheated! I'm a big Melodyne fanboy.
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the problem is, when your neurosis about the quality of your voice interferes with the song, that's not good.
It probably does, and my friends' refusal to be in a room with my singing probably doesn't help. But it is a little more complicated than that.... for one thing, I genuinely dislike vocals high in a mix, unless the voice is a really strong musical element. For another thing, the level automation on the second verse of this song is being a PITA ATM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewisnoski View Post
Sounds great, Fex. Lots of ideas in there, so it compelled to listen.
Thanks for listening, Steve.

Compelled to listen? This is excellent news.... if I can compel people to listen to me, there is still hope for my plans for global domination MWAHAHAHA!
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Well mixed, your voice doesn't sound as bad as you think.
As a Billy Bragg and Bob Dylan fan, I think I've got a pretty good handle on how bad my voice is. I think I sing better than Leonard Cohen. It'll do. I do have other issues with this particular recording, though.... a couple of pronunciation/accent issues, and a missing line. It's pedantic nonsense, but it will eventually drive me nuts if I don't re-record it.

For now, I think I'll try to de-ess the existing vocal properly just for the experience.
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Old 11-27-2014, 06:45 AM   #32
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Well done. Nice to hear something other than djent after such an intro. I like the atmospheric style of this, voice is fine.
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Old 11-27-2014, 07:38 AM   #33
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Thanks, morgon.

Ooh.... djent remix? Hmmm....
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Old 11-27-2014, 11:32 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorgen View Post
That was nice, thank you, almost gave me a Syd Barret-vibe, could be your voice...
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Thanks Jorgen. Not too repetitive for your taste, then?
Im sure Jorgen wont mind me saying this -as good a song as it is, Jorgens 'Closing Time' song, his latest, is comprised entirely of variations imposed over just two 4-chord repeating sequences iirc. The vocal melody and orchestrations are quite diverse though.
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:25 PM   #35
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I really enjoyed The Carousel !
I think that giving the instruments more room to breath/space, and bringing up/out the vocals in the mix, could make things even better !
Kind regards,
Fred (from just along the road in The New Forest !)
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:41 PM   #36
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I think that giving the instruments more room to breath/space, and bringing up/out the vocals in the mix, could make things even better !
I agree. The vocals will get worked on when I get round to it, but I think I'm a bit stuck when it comes to mixing the instruments any better. Unless anyone has specific advice, it might just have to stay as it is until I get the professionals to have a bash at it.

Thanks for listening!
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:31 PM   #37
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Quote:
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Im sure Jorgen wont mind me saying this -as good a song as it is, Jorgens 'Closing Time' song, his latest, is comprised entirely of variations imposed over just two 4-chord repeating sequences iirc. The vocal melody and orchestrations are quite diverse though.
I missed this. I always appreciate a tap on the back, I kid you not... the composition sure is simple... and so is music. The funny stuff, the "orchestration", well... as with everything, watch and learn...

Oh man, am I tired of this Mediterranean stuff... Athens, Golgotha... as Syd said: "I only wanted to play the guitar... but a lot of people got in the way..." iirc.

edit - didn't bother with a chorus. A-B-A-B etc is cool, actually my favorite... but A-A-A-A is cool, too... repetitive? Boring? You a musician? Well, do something about it, then...

edit again - if watching and listening isn't enough... and you want it... ask for help. You know, work together...

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Old 12-01-2014, 09:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorgen View Post
A-B-A-B etc is cool, actually my favorite... but A-A-A-A is cool, too... repetitive? Boring? You a musician? Well, do something about it, then...
Lol

Is Right!

As for the Carousel thingy, I kind of like it repetitive and boring. It's grating and discordant and it gets on my nerves, and I kind of like it that way. I'm allowed to. I like that other people like it too.
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Old 12-08-2014, 07:54 AM   #39
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I liked this a lot. The riff was handled very well with just enough variations to stay the right side of annoying. (In general I can live with repetition after all I was 15 when Tomorrow Never Knows came out- what annoys me is when it feels like it's done cos the musicians are either too lazy or unimaginative to do otherwise...)
On hifi speakers I had no issue with the voice level strangely and would only suggest you try doubletracking or summat to perhaps add some atmosphere. I do like the subtle touches of echo however.

The only other thing I'd say was that you could maybe try going even wilder in the last minute or so.

Lovely job though as it is.
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:00 AM   #40
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Thanks - all taken on board, and much appreciated.
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