Old 01-17-2018, 03:02 AM   #1
trinita
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Default Behringer X Touch Compact

Hallo, i purchased a Behringer X Touch Compact, but i encountered some problems; after having read some thread i'm still confuse:

in Mc mode, rotary encoders from 9 to 14 do not works, so i cannot assign functions to first 8 encoders (that works only to pan);

do i need to install Klinke to make them working or is my unit defective?

and if so, installing Klinke means that i loose MC Universal as option in control surface?

thanks for your help...i've few days to understand if my unit is to send back
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:48 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by trinita View Post
Hallo, i purchased a Behringer X Touch Compact, but i encountered some problems; after having read some thread i'm still confuse:

in Mc mode, rotary encoders from 9 to 14 do not works, so i cannot assign functions to first 8 encoders (that works only to pan);

do i need to install Klinke to make them working or is my unit defective?

and if so, installing Klinke means that i loose MC Universal as option in control surface?

thanks for your help...i've few days to understand if my unit is to send back
Just had a quick glance at the midi spec for the X Touch Compact.

Can't say for sure if your unit is defective, but the second set of encoders is not mapped in the stock MCU set, so it is likely working just fine.

I am currently working on a project (see my sig below) that will allow the X Touch Compact to be much more fully integrated into Reaper, hopefully the next pre-alpha will be available soon.
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:04 AM   #3
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thanks Geoff for your answer...it starts to be slightly clearer...

i tested on Ableton with this results:
9-not working
10-ok
11-ok
12-ok
13-not working
14-not working;

what i would like to understand quickly is if my unit is defective (so i can send back), but seems to be a MC configuration problem;

what about using Klinke?

i'll go to see your projects...
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:02 PM   #4
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It was a year ago when I have worked with it (and even then remotely). But I remember in MC mode not everything was working.
Compact has less buttons than MCU but more encoders, they have mapped some encoders as buttons. So they send signal when you push them, but not when you turn.

But you can easily check for defective unit - switch it to normal MIDI mode and check these encoders produce the signal.

Theoretically, you can create MIDI map which mimics MC mode and then use usual MCU support in the DAW. But I have not tried that.
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:50 PM   #5
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So they send signal when you push them, but not when you turn.
The explicit description is in the handbook-

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Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
But you can easily check for defective unit - switch it to normal MIDI mode and check these encoders produce the signal.
I am rather sure that also in MC mode, midi signals are sent that can be visualized by e.g. the ReaControlMidi log.

-Michael

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Old 01-18-2018, 01:36 AM   #6
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Now i understand this product is full of potentiality but it does't work;
i send this mail to Behringer:

Hallo, now i've a better idea, and i'm rather disappointed: this product does't work with Reaper.
You specify at http://www.musictri.be that it is a "Universal Remote Control for DAWs, Instruments, Effects and Lighting applications" and "Built-in Mackie Control* emulation allows your X-TOUCH COMPACT to work with virtually any professional audio production software imaginable", but it's not true; in Mc mode this controller works only with Logic.
I don't know if more expensive products in your line do what you declare and works properly, but actually i don't feel to spend more money in Behringer; i was pretty confident in "Designed and engineered in Germany", but now i'm not happy.
Also i don't understand why there are 8 rotary encoders that works as buttons, it's absolutly insane.
I hope you will update firmware to make it working with Reaper (and any other Daws).

Regards
Luca
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:32 AM   #7
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Theoretically, you can create MIDI map which mimics MC mode and then use usual MCU support in the DAW. But I have not tried that.
i think it's difficult:

-how can you assign a knob to another knob?
in this device knobs 9-14 controls knobs 1-9 functions; how can you do that?

-how can you assign faders, 8 touch sensitive and motorized, to second third and so on banks?
i assigned my 8 faders to my first 8 traks volume, but i don't know how to od for traks 9-16, 17-24....
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:18 AM   #8
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Hi,
I doubt your unit is defective. IMO it may be user error, or misunderstanding. Try klinkes extent ion. Read the manuals. Klinkes manual has much info.
After that, if you still need to remap stuff, midi translator pro from bomes software can do all.
You don't have to assign anything. If it emulates an MCU and your using klinkes, then you hit the bank up/down button to go to other banks of 8.
Read klinkes manual.
Good luck.

Klinkes only works with the mcu protocol. So I think you are a bit confused.

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Old 01-18-2018, 09:47 AM   #9
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Klinkes only works with the mcu protocol. So I think you are a bit confused.
for this reason i found some diffult, becouse i believe it's no possible to do via Midi; i'm new to MCU protocol, i'm going to read manual and learn more, i'll follow your advice also, but if i can map this controller in order to make it works properly, why it has not been done by Behringer staff?

thanks for your interest...
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:32 AM   #10
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Hi,
The MCU protocol..or more correctly but seldom used...Mackie Control Protocol is entirely based on midi.
The software you run on the daw, say, klinkes, determines all what button push/fader move does what in your daw.
The Beringer sends out midi info, klinkes does its thing and sends back feedback via midi info ....lights,or movement or text...and the xtouch lights a light or moves a fader or displays info.

Read the install section espicialy in the klinke manual.
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Old 01-18-2018, 02:59 PM   #11
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It's not Behringer's fault but it's Reaper's fault (in a sense), because the Mackie Control protocol is only guaranteed to work with certain Daws, and it states it in the Mackie Control manuals. The reason Logic works so well with MCU is because it is fully supported by Logic, Reaper doesn't fully support it. I have the Behringer X-Touch and for my purposes it works fine (faders, mute, solo, rec, select, transport, automation, pan, scroll, fader bank, channel bank, insert markers, scribble strips) but it doesn't allow me to pull up the sends, plugins, ect. I know the X-Touch has more buttons than the compact, so it also allows me to have 140 buttons to assign to actions (using the 4 modifier buttons). I would like it to work exactly like a MCU within Reaper but Reaper doesn't support it natively.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:07 PM   #12
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Just had a quick glance at the midi spec for the X Touch Compact.

Can't say for sure if your unit is defective, but the second set of encoders is not mapped in the stock MCU set, so it is likely working just fine.

I am currently working on a project (see my sig below) that will allow the X Touch Compact to be much more fully integrated into Reaper, hopefully the next pre-alpha will be available soon.
Hey Geoff,
Does your MCU patch works with Mac?
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Old 01-18-2018, 05:50 PM   #13
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Hey Geoff,
Does your MCU patch works with Mac?
The project provides supports for both Windows and Mac OS but not Linux (at least not natively).

As to whether you can get full support, that really depends on what midi signals (messages) the surface emits.

In reading this thread it appears that some of the rotaries only emit the top switch portion of the protocol.

Can you use a simple midi monitoring program and find out what messages it actually emits ?
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:42 PM   #14
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How do I download/install it into Reaper?
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:05 PM   #15
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How do I download/install it into Reaper?
Best to follow the thread in my sig below, plan to have a pre alpha out within a few weeks or so...
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:41 PM   #16
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OK thanks.
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:08 PM   #17
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In reading this thread it appears that some of the rotaries only emit the top switch portion of the protocol.
I feel that with your tool, XTouch should be used in standard mode rather than in MC mode. In standard mode, all faders, rotaries, buttons and LEDs are available (LED rings can be set rather independent of the Rotary itself, and can be set to different modes such as off, on and blink, "Single Led", "Pan", "Fan", "Spread", and "Trim"). Moreover you can double the count of controls by the "A"/"B" layer switches. I do all this with the JSFXes I wrote for my "keyboard rack" integration.

As discussed in the other thread I'll be happy to work with you an that and do a Beta test when appropriate

-Michael
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Old 01-19-2018, 01:21 AM   #18
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[QUOTE=mschnell;1942671]I feel that with your tool, XTouch should be used in standard mode rather than in MC mode.[/QUOTE

in standard mode, can you suggest, if is it possible, how to assign my faders multiple banks
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:38 AM   #19
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I feel that with your tool, XTouch should be used in standard mode rather than in MC mode. In standard mode, all faders, rotaries, buttons and LEDs are available (LED rings can be set rather independent of the Rotary itself, and can be set to different modes such as off, on and blink, "Single Led", "Pan", "Fan", "Spread", and "Trim"). Moreover you can double the count of controls by the "A"/"B" layer switches. I do all this with the JSFXes I wrote for my "keyboard rack" integration.

As discussed in the other thread I'll be happy to work with you an that and do a Beta test when appropriate

-Michael
Great news !!

Thanks, as usual, for your help.

As you may know the mapping is coming along well, I'll be buggin you for all the info you have soon
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:58 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by trinita View Post
i think it's difficult:

-how can you assign a knob to another knob?
in this device knobs 9-14 controls knobs 1-9 functions; how can you do that?

-how can you assign faders, 8 touch sensitive and motorized, to second third and so on banks?
i assigned my 8 faders to my first 8 traks volume, but i don't know how to od for traks 9-16, 17-24....
MCU Protocol is rather simple: http://www.azslow.com/files/mcu.png
Each control ALWAYS send the same message and there is no "local feedback" (pressing buttons does not change LEDs, turning knobs does not change the ring). The whole logic is in the software.

That is the reason why it is so popular. If some device send "Note 94" when "play" button is pressed and "Note 93" when "stop" buttons is pressed, the device can claim "MC compatible".

X-Touch Compact is freely configurable using its own editor. So in case you in MIDI mode assign the same Notes/CCs/PB to related controls, it will work "as in MC mode".

To have complete MCU like device, you had to buy big X-Touch. You have chosen Compact, your choice, no reason to blame Behringer.
Compact has several advantages: it is cheaper, it is smaller and it has 8 EXTRA encoders instead of many buttons.

That makes it f.e. perfect choice for blind musicians. They do not need display and 8 pushable encoders are simpler to use then 40 buttons. While with proper configuration, these encoders can provide up to 8x5 = 40 different functions (left/right/push alone/push+left/push+right). I have done that for Sonar (and will do this for Reaper...).

But if you want "real" MCU you should buy corresponding unit. There is no reason to take Compact (or Faderport 8) and then complain half of the functions are not working. There was no such intention.

And now WARNINGS:
* Compact has one nasty property with A-B layers. When you are in different layer, the feedback for another layer is ignored. F.e. if your layer A is for mixing and layer B is for FX control, when you are in FX control (B) but changed some volumes by mouse, once you return to mixing (A), your faders will be out of sync.
Note that "A-B" switching does not inform the DAW, so that is not possible to solve in software (if the fact of switching is know, software could just initiate full resync).
* at least on Compact, faders are NOT hi resolution. Real MCU faders are 10bit (no, there are no faders with full 14bits...). But Compact faders are 7bit.
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:38 AM   #21
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MCU Protocol is rather simple: http://www.azslow.com/files/mcu.png
But if you want "real" MCU you should buy corresponding unit. There is no reason to take Compact (or Faderport 8) and then complain half of the functions are not working. There was no such intention.
i complain, because in compact there is a mc mode, and it doesn't work, not only in reaper (i tried in ableton and i saw lots of comlpains for sonnar);
and this is write on behringer website

"Universal Remote Control for DAWs, Instruments, Effects and Lighting applications"

"Built-in Mackie Control* emulation allows your X-TOUCH COMPACT to work with virtually any professional audio production software imaginable"
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:41 AM   #22
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in standard mode, can you suggest, if is it possible, how to assign my faders multiple banks
I understand that this is what Geoffs tool will do, according to a set of configuration files that need to be supplied dedicatedly for the controller board in question.

-Michael
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:50 AM   #23
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And now WARNINGS:
* Compact has one nasty property with A-B layers. When you are in different layer, the feedback for another layer is ignored. F.e. if your layer A is for mixing and layer B is for FX control, when you are in FX control (B) but changed some volumes by mouse, once you return to mixing (A), your faders will be out of sync.
Note that "A-B" switching does not inform the DAW, so that is not possible to solve in software (if the fact of switching is know, software could just initiate full resync).
* at least on Compact, faders are NOT hi resolution. Real MCU faders are 10bit (no, there are no faders with full 14bits...). But Compact faders are 7bit.
The layer issue is really nasty for my "live" usage, as well:
- when showing one layer the input data for the other layer is ignored instead of saved.
- even worse, pressing a Layer button does not send out a message. Otherwise I would be able to send the information stored by my application on layer change.

It should be easily possible for Behringer to solve this in a firmqware update. Did you do such a request to them ? Can I vote with you ?

I suppose the faders are 7 bit by a hardware, So no hope for improvement here.

-Michael
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:04 AM   #24
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The layer issue is really nasty for my "live" usage, as well:
- when showing one layer the input data for the other layer is ignored instead of saved.
- even worse, pressing a Layer button does not send out a message. Otherwise I would be able to send the information stored by my application on layer change.

It should be easily possible for Behringer to solve this in a firmqware update. Did you do such a request to them ? Can I vote with you ?
-Michael
No. I do not have the device. I have configured it remotely across an ocean...
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Old 01-19-2018, 08:49 AM   #25
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And now WARNINGS:
* Compact has one nasty property with A-B layers. When you are in different layer, the feedback for another layer is ignored. F.e. if your layer A is for mixing and layer B is for FX control, when you are in FX control (B) but changed some volumes by mouse, once you return to mixing (A), your faders will be out of sync.
Note that "A-B" switching does not inform the DAW, so that is not possible to solve in software (if the fact of switching is know, software could just initiate full resync).
* at least on Compact, faders are NOT hi resolution. Real MCU faders are 10bit (no, there are no faders with full 14bits...). But Compact faders are 7bit.
Thanks for the info, and Ugghhh...

That means not only can you not use the Layer buttons for software banking, they are also destructive and must be avoided

Any way to just disable them ?
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:43 PM   #26
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Any way to just disable them ?
No. The user needs to avoid pressing them.

In my application Layer A does not suffer from such destruction, as the XControl is the only way to set the appropriate parameters (for my live Keyboard Rack).

But Layer B controls parameters of an XR18 Rack mixer. Here other clients (tablets) can be connected (via WLAN) that also can handle those parameters. So I used a dedicated button to have my OSCii-Bot script fetch all appropriate parameters from the XR18 and send them to the XControl, to have them displayed correctly. You need to press that button when you switch to layer B and want top see the correct setting. Not perfect at all !

-Michael

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Old 02-06-2018, 02:42 PM   #27
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Default XTouch Compact setup

Trying to integrate my XTC into Reaper. In Midi Device setup, if I tick Enable Input for Control Messages Only, Reaper doesn't see any CC messages sent from Faders or Knobs.
If I then add the option Enable Input the midi messages appear on my Midi track. However this means that if a note is programmed on a button, that will sound when pushed. To me this isn't right. I never had this option enabled when using it in Cubase and my CC messages were transmitting fine.

Is this because I am using the USB connection from the XTC? I really need to keep using that, as it's used when I change the XTC to MC Mode.

My Ipad is Enabled for CC only, and that works fine. Running out of patience here
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:51 PM   #28
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Trying to integrate my XTC into Reaper. In Midi Device setup, if I tick Enable Input for Control Messages Only, Reaper doesn't see any CC messages sent from Faders or Knobs.
If I then add the option Enable Input the midi messages appear on my Midi track
Here "control messages" means that the midi input is sent to the "Reaper Control Path" (rather than to any track). So you will not see them, as you only can look at tracks. But you can "learn" such messages for plugin parameters, actions, ...).
"Input" sends the midi messages to the tracks that can be set to use that device.

AFAIU this is independent of what messages (CC or other messages) are are received.

Reaper does not know how the midi device (a software thingy in the computer's OS) creates the Midi messages (e.g. from stuff coming in via USB, via 5-pin connector, generated by some software, ...)

-Michael

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Old 02-09-2018, 07:15 AM   #29
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Thanks Michael. So if I am correct, I will have to have both enabled to Record CC1 and CC1 onto my Midi Tracks? I will edit the XTC Presets so that it doesn't send any notes.
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:57 PM   #30
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Not necessarily.

If your Midi device creates exactly the messages you need to "learn" to Actions of Automation parameters, you can feed them directly to the "Reaper Control Path".

If you need to do some preprocessing, same is best done in a track (or multiple) by JSFX or VST "Midi Filter" plugins, and then MidiToReaConmtrol Path is used to route them to the "Reaper Control Path". In that case it's a very good idea to disable "Control Messages" in the device setup to avoid confusion arising from two feeds.

-Michael
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:41 PM   #31
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Quick question about the X-Touch Compact--

It's supposedly easy to switch between MCU and "MIDI" mode... does it have two MIDI inputs, in Preferences? One called X-Touch Compact and the other like "X-Touch Compact (MIDI 2)" or something like that?

Because if using as a Control Surface, you have to make sure that it ISN'T enabled as a Midi Input (in the Devices/MIDI section in Preferences). But if it has two separate MIDI inputs, then it would be easy to switch between Mackie Control Universal mode, and MIDI mode. Otherwise you're disabling/enabling MIDI inputs constantly, when switching on the unit itself.

Thanks for any help!
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Old 09-09-2019, 10:15 PM   #32
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Quick question about the X-Touch Compact--

It's supposedly easy to switch between MCU and "MIDI" mode... does it have two MIDI inputs, in Preferences?
Nope.

The modes are strictly separate / exclusive.

The MCU protocol messages (send and receive) are completely predefined. MCU does not use Midi channels etc, so it can't work together with standard Midi on that USB- / OS- Midi device. (OK, the XTouch could create two Midi devices, which IMHO would be a good idea, but it does not).

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 09-28-2019 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:06 AM   #33
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Nope.

The modes are strictly separate / exclusive.

The MCU protocol messages (send and receive) are completely predefined. MCU does not use Midi channels etc, so it can't work together with standard Midi on that channel. (OK, the XTouch could create two Midi devices, which IMHO would be a good idea, but it does not).

-Michael
That's good news... so you can essentially have the Compact as a regular midi CC controller (the buttons/encoders) in MIDI mode, and a button press brings you back to MCU mode, with the motorized faders? Coolness. Thanks!
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:53 PM   #34
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In "Standard" mode, the Compact is programmable. Each Button, Rotary and Fader can be assigned to a dedicated midi control (CC or Note on/off respectively). All this for either of the two "layers" A and B.

A downside is that the Compact currently only provides 7 bit resolution - as well in Standard as in MC mode.

With "CSI" it should even be possible to use the Compact in standard mode as a Reaper control surface.

-Michael
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Old 09-28-2019, 04:04 PM   #35
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Ok, I'm still confused...

I just got a Compact.... and with Reaper, I see there's still only ONE midi input ("X-Touch Compact") and ONE midi output ("X-Touch Output").

Therefore, it doesn't seem I can have say, layer A Mackie Control, and layer B, my custom MIDI mappings.... because Reaper needs:

Devices MIDI - Input and Output to be SEPARATE input and output from the Control Surface ports.

I thought the Compact had two MIDI ins and two MIDI outs?

Yes, I know there's a workaround for using the X-Touch Editor to send the Mackie messages (often standard MIDI notes, for MOST controls... faders send Pitch Bend on Ch1, 2, 3, 4.... etc (for faders 1 2 3 4, etc)

Even setting these messages and using the Compact in Standard (MIDI) mode... I can't get say, Layer A to be Mackie, and Layer B to be generic MIDI messages (often ONLY CCs, not mIDI notes).

Help?

Wracking my brain, as usual.. trying to understand what I WANT to do.

Thank you!!!
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Old 09-28-2019, 11:27 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by themixtape View Post
I just got a Compact.... and with Reaper, I see there's still only ONE midi input ("X-Touch Compact") and ONE midi output ("X-Touch Output").
...
I thought the Compact had two MIDI ins and two MIDI outs?
Yep.
As I said before: "the XTouch could create two Midi devices (on the same USB socket), which IMHO would be a good idea, but it does not!".
You need to switch the Compact to either "Standard" or "MC" Mode (by holding the bottom left button labeled "MC".
The "Layers" are only used in standard Mode. In MC mode the Layer A / Layer B buttons are used for other purpose (Fast Backward / Fast Forward).

Quote:
Originally Posted by themixtape View Post
Yes, I know there's a workaround for using the X-Touch Editor to send the Mackie messages (often standard MIDI notes, for MOST controls... faders send Pitch Bend on Ch1, 2, 3, 4.... etc (for faders 1 2 3 4, etc)
This unfortunately is not true. The MC protocol does not use plain standard Midi messages, but for getting higher resolution it abuses the Midi channel bits as an extension to the value bits. This can't be achieved by the Compact Editor. (Unfortunately even in MC Mode the Compact does not make decent use of these bits and hence it does not provide a fully functional MCU protocol. (I actually don't know why thy implemented this restriction. I understand the compact uses the same hardware faders as the "big" XTouch, which in fact provides the full MCU protocol.)

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Originally Posted by themixtape View Post
Wracking my brain, as usual.. trying to understand what I WANT to do.
Maybe you are on the same track as I once was on and supposedly will continue some day soon: Using the Compact in standard mode with CSI. This will provide the most possible flexibility: only the Layer buttons have a dedicated function, everything else is programmable.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 09-28-2019 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 09-29-2019, 12:07 AM   #37
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What I meant by changing the modes is... you can change them without power-cycling. It is CC127 on the X-Touch Compact's Global Channel. But that message needs to be received, not sent.

Your second point-- yes, it does work. I have only been using the Compact in Standard Mode, and enabling it as a Control Surface (using input "X-Touch Compact" and output "X-Touch Compact")... the faders work when opening up new projects, etc. And they transmit (but do not receive, as in from the mouse).

The mute/solo buttons don't stay lit, but they work. As do the arm record button. It doesn't stay lit, but it does work. If setting the X-Touch Editor to "Toggle" on the buttons, sadly the buttons do a weird "not off yet, now they're off.. now on... not off yet, now they're off" pattern... could be the way Klinke's extension works.

But yeah, it WORKS. It just doesn't work like I want it to.

I would love to even know where to begin with the CSI project. However, every time I posted "can you help a n00b", my posts were blatantly ignored. I don't understand it at all, and I've read every single post on it.
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Old 09-29-2019, 12:13 AM   #38
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Trying to integrate my XTC into Reaper. In Midi Device setup, if I tick Enable Input for Control Messages Only, Reaper doesn't see any CC messages sent from Faders or Knobs.
If I then add the option Enable Input the midi messages appear on my Midi track. However this means that if a note is programmed on a button, that will sound when pushed. To me this isn't right. I never had this option enabled when using it in Cubase and my CC messages were transmitting fine.

Is this because I am using the USB connection from the XTC? I really need to keep using that, as it's used when I change the XTC to MC Mode.

My Ipad is Enabled for CC only, and that works fine. Running out of patience here
Hey DynamicK! I saw your post on VI-Control forum... you figured it out, at that forum... can you help me, too?
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Old 09-29-2019, 12:55 AM   #39
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. I don't understand it at all, and I've read every single post on it.
In some of these posts lately I read that some kind of documentation is starting to grow, and should be accessible somewhere. It already should cpontain the basics on how to get started. I did not yet try to search for it. Let me know if you find it.
-Michael
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Old 09-29-2019, 01:01 AM   #40
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You were not ignored:
-> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....&page=113#4487

And no posts by you after that answer .
-Michael
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