Old 09-16-2018, 05:31 AM   #1
mschnell
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Default Finding a VST parameter in Kontakt

I'd like to automate a parameter of an instrument that is a Kontakt library.

Now in the appropriate menus in the FX settings, Kontakt just shows a bunch of names that are just numbered but are not assigned to any "speaking" terms: #000..#511.

How can I see which of these changes when I modify a parameter of the instrument in Kontakt ?

I do know that one of them is assigned to the value in question, as Reaper successfully store the setting with the project, but when I modify the parameter in question (or seemingly any other parameter in the Kontakt GUI, or any other VST2i I tested, ... but ReaSynth that does show a parameter name), the Reaper's "param" menu says "no recently touched FX parameters".

Thanks,
-Michael

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Old 09-16-2018, 06:10 AM   #2
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you first have to go to the automation tab inside kontakt and assign the parameter to one of the items there... then back in reaper use that one for the envelope...
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:59 PM   #3
mschnell
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Thanks a lot !
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
you first have to go to the automation tab inside kontakt
Found that list

Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
and assign the parameter to one of the items there...
The text says "in order to automate drag to a knob or Fader"

But the things I want to automate are either drop down menus or a kind of bargraph in the instrument's GUI, which both can be handled by the mouse,

When trying to drag the "not assigned" there, the cursor stays a "forbidden" symbol.

Any additional suggestions ?

Thanks again,
-Michael
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Old 09-16-2018, 03:06 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
But the things I want to automate are either drop down menus or a kind of bargraph in the instrument's GUI, which both can be handled by the mouse,
Hi Michael, the menu selection(s) can usually be selected through a script. Don't know about the bargraph.

Can you post a picture of the GUI as well as the bargraph?
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Old 09-16-2018, 03:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I do know that one of them is assigned to the value in question, as Reaper successfully store the setting with the project
Plugins can have host recallable state that is not tied to any automatable parameters. (That extra data is handled just as a chunk of memory by the plugin and the host.)
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Old 09-16-2018, 03:41 PM   #6
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Dropdown menus and tables aren't automatable in Kontakt.
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Michael, the menu selection(s) can usually be selected through a script.
Obviously. The library is Sample Modeling's "The Trumpet v3". The bargraph is for "Timbre editing".

The library contains a very complex Kontakt script. Here they seem to have created the "bargraph editor" to modify the timbre. The drop-down is for selecting multiple presets for that timbre.

I don't have a full Kontakt version , though. and even if, I supose such scripts are protected, anyway.

-Michael
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Old 09-16-2018, 10:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Dropdown menus and tables aren't automatable in Kontakt.
Seems like...
But as the value is saved and reloaded in/from the project file, they need to be VST cariables.

I'll try to find out the number and try if a variable change (automation) is accepted by Kontakt and the library in realtime or just when loading.

-Michael
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Old 09-16-2018, 10:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
That extra data is handled just as a chunk of memory by the plugin and the host.
Some kind of free-format VST variable ? (This would need to be described in the VST API documentation.)

Thanks for pointing this out.

-Michael
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Old 09-17-2018, 12:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Some kind of free-format VST variable ? (This would need to be described in the VST API documentation.)
The whole point of the extra state chunks is that they don't need to be documented in any way. (So that hosts don't need to care about what's inside them, they just know the length in bytes and the address in memory where the data starts.)
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Old 09-17-2018, 12:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Seems like...
But as the value is saved and reloaded in/from the project file, they need to be VST variables.
Yeah, internally in the plugin. But they are not assignable to host automation, so you cannot control them from the DAW.
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Old 09-17-2018, 12:13 PM   #12
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You are right

I saved it as a preset, copied the ini file, modified a parameter, re-saved and compared the files.

The content is completely different and even the size of the parameter area is not the same. So they seem to rotate the parameters and somehow change the count of the relevant parameters.

So no chance.

-Michael
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Old 09-17-2018, 12:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
The whole point of the extra state chunks is that they don't need to be documented in any way.
I did not mean the content, but the format of the "state chunks" (e.g. the size) needs to be communicated.

-Michael
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:18 PM   #14
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Accepting this sad situation, another question arises:

Is there a (common) way to use a midi Message to push a setup onto a plugin ?

In fact I already excessively do use LiveConfigs for this, but here I would like to switch some presets just within a single track's FX chain,m not using a "global" tool such as LiveConfigs .

Thanks,
-Michael.

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Old 09-18-2018, 07:45 AM   #15
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....

I guess pushing presets onto Kontakt will result in a huge load time at this point in time. That is why I dropped doing so with my live setup and use instrument bank to be managed by Program Change messages, instead.

Supposedly this is what I need to do here. Only not to switch a copmplete instrument, but just a parameter setting.

Downside:
- Kontakt will see this as a new instrument and hence load time at program start will increase.
- Setting up the parameters of an instrument in an instrument bank is a PITA. You first outside of the bank need to load the instrument from a file, then tweak the parameter, then save the instrument to a file, and then drag the new instrument (file) into the slot of the instrument bank, and then save the Reaper project

-Michael

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Old 09-22-2018, 04:10 PM   #16
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Happily I found "the Trumpet" has a (slightly weird) way to assign three CCs to timbre changes.

-Michael
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:56 PM   #17
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A while back I was working on external controller set up for a rack of Kontakt instruments. I needed to be able to bypass an internal effect using an external controller. Kontakt would not let me assign a MIDI controller directly to this function. There was no learn command and no parameter exposed to external software directly. I still think this particular limitation of Kontakt is ridiculous. Almost everything else can be MIDI learned. The parameters within the FX itself could be controlled but the bypass function was not supported directly.

After searching the Internet and reading a lot of articles I found something that allowed me to create a simple script in Kontakt to get around this problem. I'm not a Kontakt scripter but I was able to modify a script I found online to get this parameter exposed. Because you can use almost any MIDI note or controller combination to trigger the bypass (or anything else) through the script I'm thinking this technique could probably be used to solve your problem, although admittedly most of my MIDI editing of parameters is done outside of reaper so I'm not intimately familiar with that side of things.

It's been a while now since I did this but if you think more information about this would be helpful let me know and I will dig up what I can.
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Old 09-22-2018, 05:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Happily I found "the Trumpet" has a (slightly weird) way to assign three CCs to timbre changes.
I would think that would almost certainly be the case, if they indeed have these timbre changes they would only be hurting themselves to not make these available in an automated way.

Do you mind sharing what you found Michael?
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:15 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steviebone View Post
I found something that allowed me to create a simple script in Kontakt to get around this problem.
Thanks for this valuable information !
Unfortunately I don't have a full Kontakt version, and the "Trumpet" script very likely is closed source and not modifyable by users :;(

-Michael
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:30 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Do you mind sharing what you found Michael?
Regarding the Timbre, "The Trumpet" feature four knobs with associated and selectable Midi CCs.

The Timbre is created by ten frequency bands that work similar to a graphic EQ (but maybe are deeply embedded in the heavily scripted sound creation algorithm).

You can set each band to +/- a certain amount and save such a setting as a preset.

Now three of the knobs/CCs are used to modify the bands' "Gain" (CC= 64-> No change).

The mapping of the bands to the knobs is weird:
- Band with gain zero are not effected by the knobs/CCs.
- the bands are associated to groups that are limited by bands with gain zero
- the lowest three of such groups are mapped to the the knobs/CCs one after the other.

Additionally there is a knob/CC called "Harmonic Format Shift". I did not yet find out how exactly this works (but I do have some intuition). Maybe this is really powerful for what I want (create a really "soft" Fluegelhorn sound and be able to gradually brighten the tone.

Maybe using ReaEQ and automate it's parameters might be an appropriate way to go, as well, but I first tried the built-in features of the plugin, as they are supposed to be as "musical" as possible.

-Michael
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