Gaza

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

You're right, Israel is being a bit excessive. But what would you like them to do when Hamas-supported militants keep tossing rockets over the border? Not to mention that part of Hamas' purpose for existence is the complete destruction of Israel. What should Israel's response be?

1 - At the poitn where it is, the Hamas does not fight anymore for the compelte destruction of Israël. They declared ready to accept Israël in the 1967 frontiers (those recognized by the international law of the UN that Israël does not respect for more than 40 years now).

2 - mentionning the rockets without the global context into which they occur is giving a biased and half part blind vision of the conflict. The called "Occupied Territories" in the West Bank are territories illegally conquered by Israël into which they make exist a kind of appartheid situation comparable to the one in south Africa before, where they oppress the Palestinian population with a military occupation which is very hard and making their lives impossible. In those lands, the process of colonisation is stil working, and everyday some Palestinians see their house demolished and their cultures burnt by amdinistrative decision and themselves expelled while their land is given to israelis settlmen. This is the real context into which rockets occured. Those are not rockets to destroy completely Israël nor to eradicate the Jewsih people form the surface of the earth. Those are the single means they have to resist against this occupation and the colonisation of their land. I personnally don't accept those rockets because I'm a faithful non-violent partisan who praise a non-violent revolt in all situation (I do belive in Christ, this explains that). But one has to share my non-violent radicalisme for that.

So what should Israel do ? STOP THE OCCUPATION ! STOP THE COLONISATION ! MAKE PEACE (and they have the means to make peace, they are the strong ones). And rockets will cease.

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by Guod3

An aspect of the current situation in Gaza, that fills me with dread (I jest not) is that many or most of the residents of Gaza are children.
The trauma experienced can have a brutalising affect on young minds. The seeds of tragedy are sewn for the next generation to repeat. Too sad for words...

You matched a point. It is proven that with 40 years (if not 60) of constant brutal military response policy, Israel has engendrerde generation that were each time more violent theant the one before, because when you see bombings everyday since you're born, blood and mruder have deeply affected your mind and flood in your veins. Anger too. Gigantic quantities of anger and resentment.

[Iokanaan]

Wanna really know what it's all about ? Wanna have an undestanding of what's REALLY going on in this part of the world and to undestand the reactions of all the people engaged ?

watch this : http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...75898578139565

"Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land: US Media & the Israel-Palestine Conflict"

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by TimOBrien

Lets boil it down to a personal level:

You're sitting at home alone locked in your house with pistols, a few shotguns and a high-powered deer rifle.

Me and my street gang come by every day and throw 50 or 60 rocks a day at your windows from across the street. Occasionally we randomly shoot into your windows with a .22, not a big rifle, just a popgun.... but lethal.

You call the cops but they only send a stern letter over to my clubhouse.

This goes on for weeks, months, years.

.....now what are you TRUTHFULLY going to do????

Once again, this is a very partial and uncomplete vision of the problem.

What did you forget to mention ? The fact that everyday, the guy in front of you don't just keep home being nice with all and living his nioce and peaceful life. He has his own street gang - far far better armed than your. And everyday, he goes into the land of your "gang" and takes each time a block of houses that he agresses and takes their inhabitants off, takes hold of their house and garden and puts a member of his family (cominf from a foreign country and that he invites) into it instad of one of your who becomes homeless. This is 40 years that he does this every day. And needed no to be mentinned too : once the town was not his : he arrived in 1948 with weapons and expelled 700 000 of your people (murdering those who did not want to leave, all this is clearly described in a book written by an Israeli historian entitled "the ethnic cleansing of Palestine). And the "cops" and the mayor did not find anything better than to declare this "legal" and this part of the town now his property.

Now, is this sooooo surprising that, at a moment, you start to create a gang too and decide to react, to defend your rights with the means you own (since no one in the town does, because, contrary to what you do, the cops are complaisant with the other gang since the beginningg, cxlosing the eyes to his entreprise of taking hold of the city, not you) and go and visit them at night with rockets ?

I think you would be dishonest if you would pretend that such a reaction is not understandable.

From a general point of view, people, please, be extremely careful and suspicious with all the information and news given to our western medias concerning what happens in the muslim-arab societies. Those are distorted, manipulated, amputated, oriented, because there are high political interests in the fact that the people believes that arabs are only barbarians and terrorists who have to be fought, and not normal human beings that may have great and excellent reasons to be angry and, no, no, NOT TO ATTACK, but to DEFEND THEMSELVES from attacks and agessive policies coming from us since years and years now that are not said and to you and hidden from you because you need to take this defensive reflex as an attack and to be unable to undertsand it - so, to condemn it and to praise agression in return.

This manipulation is creating the seeds of a 3rd world war - because at this other part of the world, they clearly see us attakcing them, invading them, killing their children for their oil and lands. they've been passive victims for years. And now they start to become VERY VERY ANGRY. So PLEASE, PLEASE, awake, be aware, stop repreating the shit you've been told to learn, because History shall reveal to us that no, we are not in the "good" side, the "good camp" of justice, but of agression, and we will have to defend ourselves in History and posterity for our participation to all this !

[Jae.Thomas]

just nuke them both

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

just nuke them both

Didn't you say earlier that you did believe in Christ ?

Even as a cynical joke and as an obvious provocation (about which I let you question your deep motivations and will simply point the fact that they sureley aren't that sane and "christic"), this is completely useless regarding the debate.

I was used to some wiser and cleverer interventions from you here...

[Klemperer]

Some really interesting posts here. To somehow get it back to music too though, I just think who is interested in all this (I am since ages as my ancestors were jews, and quite a few like my grand-grand-ma killed by the Nazis in my country, Germany) could like to read the things Daniel Barenboim, a world-class piano player and conductor, writes at his homepage. It is surely not the "official" stand-point in Israel, rather a very minor position (sadly enough). Barenboim runs an orchestra with musicians from Israel and Palestine. In Israel he seems to have many ennemies, but many admirers also. He is a citizen - he claims to be the only one - who has a passport from Israel AND from the Palestines.
Recently he told that of course the suicide attacks of Hamas are nothing any at least a bit human being could "find excuses for" (what should be "good" at to go into a bus and kill all people there, and yourself?????). But that the history is rather one-sided now, and that people in Gaza feel quite left alone. And they are. Hopefully this will change after the 8 years with Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and others, and with the now german chancellor in 2003 kind of following Bush rather blindly (like this time again, nobody criticises Mrs. Merkel for that).

So besides writings that cover the history of this tragic killing since 60 years, Barenboim's view about the Gaza strip bombing is to be found
HERE. A very very good reading, that includes what all american news constantly don't send - the fact that Hamas was supported by Israel in the past. A logic a bit similar to the one that the western world supported Saddam Hussein in the past, against Iran (and here the similarity ends, mind).

I always tend to think high of people that still are able to think around the next border in the midst of chaos. Barenboim certainly is such a person, and a great musician.

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by Iokanaan

Now, is this sooooo surprising that, at a moment, you start to create a gang too and decide to to react, to defend your rights with the means you own (since no one in the town does, because, contrary to what you do, the cops are complaisant with the other gang since the beginningg, cxlosing the eyes to his entreprise of taking hold of the city, not you) and go and visit them at night with rockets ?

I think you would be dishonest if you would pretend that such a reaction is not understandable.

Understandable? Maybe, maybe not, but certainly indefensible. Throwing rockets at civilians in the middle of an official cease fire is a terrorist act, no if or but about it, an validate any and all policing act thereafter.

[Kainer]

Originally Posted by Iokanaan

And needed no to be mentinned too : once the town was not his : he arrived in 1948 with weapons and expelled 700 000 of your people (murdering those who did not want to leave, all this is clearly described in a book written by an Israeli historian entitled "the ethnic cleansing of Palestine).

but, also:
most of the land was nothing like sand and desert. the people who lived there (or you have to say who OWNED this land, ...there were nothing to live in, as I said, most of it was desert, without people really living there) SOLD most of the land to the jews. it is very partial to say they expelled 700000 people and killed them, don´t you think?
(even that maybe a fact too..)

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

just nuke them both

What about fallout?

There's talk about opening a colony on Mars, I'm thinking they'd be happy there...

[Bebop52]

'Just nuke them both', typical dumb USA response JBM. I hope you are joking, albeit in a sick manner. Not funny. We are talking about ordinary people's lives and deaths.

Today, UN headquarter in Gaza bombed by Israel. Tons of UN aid, food and medicines, desperately needed, blown to bits. Enough to make anyone with any sensitivity and humanity to sing the blues.

[jamieson1974]

Originally Posted by Bebop52

typical dumb USA response.

I notice that you like to generalize people quite a bit. In a previous post you claim you lump all Israelis together. In this one it's the Americans. This is exactly the type of narrow-mindness that keeps these war going. Dig a little deeper, Bebop52. The answers aren't always so obvious.

[Jae.Thomas]

guess what, no one is going to solve anything here.

so therefore, my comment was just as valid as anyone else's.

get off your asses, your keyboards, your lcd monitor and go do something about it

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

get off your asses, your keyboards, your lcd monitor and go do something about it

For that to happen, one would have to find the root cause of the problem before proceeding, and then devise an action plan to act upon.

So far, all action plan that have taken place attacked the problem as if land was the problem. That hasn't worked so far. I surmise that the real cause of this problem is not land, but blind belief in magical being, what some would call religion, and until that is attacked using every mean currently at the disposal of this world, this world will not know peace.

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by bullshark

For that to happen, one would have to find the root cause of the problem before proceeding, and then devise an action plan to act upon.

i strongly doubt this is an "action plan" -- its a bunch of stubborn people on a virtual battlefield of words behind mostly anonymous usernames having a piss contest

Originally Posted by bullshark

So far, all action plan that have taken place attacked the problem as if land was the problem. That hasn't worked so far. I surmise that the real cause of this problem is not land, but blind belief in magical being, what some would call religion, and until that is attacked using every mean currently at the disposal of this world, this world will not know peace.

there you go, but certainly all religion is not guilty of this.

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

i strongly doubt this is an "action plan" -- its a bunch of stubborn people on a virtual battlefield of words behind mostly anonymous usernames having a piss contest

Just like our parliament then ...or your congress

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

there you go, but certainly all religion is not guilty of this.

Of course they all do. They heavily reinforce the tribal clan syndrome, some even under pain of physical death. Some would say people would find ways to differentiate themselves even if religions of all denomination were to suddenly disappear, and I used to think the same but I came to realize it was fallacies since I have yet to see a medium of differentiation as powerful as religion is. In this particular case, remove religion and people would have nothing to fight about.

[semiquaver]

bullshark: the conflict is not religious - its not about anyones beliefs. Its about different groups of people - different nations. The people of Gaza lost their land a generation ago and are living in shit. They want the people currently occupying the land out and to get it back. Anyone with any religion would feel the same way. Of course some of the current occupants were kicked out of Arab lands and have nowhere else to go in any case....

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

bullshark: the conflict is not religious - its not about anyones beliefs. Its about different groups of people - different nations. The people of Gaza lost their land a generation ago and are living in shit. They want the people currently occupying the land out and to get it back. Anyone with any religion would feel the same way. Of course some of the current occupants were kicked out of Arab lands and have nowhere else to go in any case....

I disagree. What differentiate the people there is their religious belief, nothing else. Most of the Arab world want Israel to disappear, but what makes a jew a jew? His religious affiliation. And most of the debate and negotiations about the territory delimitation aborted because both faction consider some part of the land sacred according to their religious beliefs, and they don't want another denomination occupying their sacred land. If there wasn't land considered sacred, that dispute would have been settled long ago.

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by bullshark

, remove religion and people would have nothing to fight about.

have you any insight into history?

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

have you any insight into history?

Of course I do, and I can also see you cleverly removed "In this particular case" from the quotation.

[semiquaver]

There have been massive wars between muslims (Iran vs Iraq / Iraq vs Kuwait) Christian and Christian (where to start? 100 years war, war of the roses, American Revolution) etc etc.

And most Israeli Jews are not even religious! Historically the Palestinians have tended to be pretty secular as well (although that is changing). The Palestinians in Gaza are not fighting primarily for religious reasons - the PLO were actually a leftist organization.

The Arab Palestinians got booted out of what is now called Israel - Most Israeli Jews of the time came from Europe! If people come from somewhere else and boot you off your land, you may struggle to get it back. As a detail the conditions in Gaza are *terrible* - there is *no* work! sanitation is iffy. The people are living in shit. Maybe this has something to do with the confilct, no?

[jet]

Every Arab country wants rid of hamas, (the exceptions are Iran and Syria.)

Hamas do not care for their own people and they teach their children to fight.

If Hamas STOP firing weapon's into Israel, Israeli's will open their arms to the Palestinian people , End of story .

They do live a very different life to us.

Right

You did notice that the UN war houses are full to the brim when their are starving people

and

Iran will be next for a good strategic kicking. again stop making nuclear weapon's.

I could go on and on about this but if you under stand the first sentence you've got it

I hope this helps.

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

The Arab Palestinians got booted out of what is now called Israel - Most Israeli Jews of the time came from Europe! If people come from somewhere else and boot you off your land, you may struggle to get it back.

Yes if someone came from somewhere to boot me off my home, I'd be pissed, but that's not really what happened over there. I know it's the simplistic way portrayed by the media, but if you dig a bit deeper than newspaper headlines you'd find that there were people of jewish denomination living there for as long as recorded history, and yes a lot of them came back to the land from somewhere else, but the bulk of them did so in the 1600's, 1800's and early 1900's, not in 1948. The UN partition plan, rejected by the Arab league who are, in effect, the ones who started the conflict, was not put in place to give land to imaginary jews that might feel like going back to their root eventually, but to split the land between people already living there.

As a detail the conditions in Gaza are *terrible* - there is *no* work! sanitation is iffy. The people are living in shit. Maybe this has something to do with the confilct, no?

That's one of the symptom, not the root issue.

[Bebop52]

Originally Posted by jet

Every Arab country wants rid of hamas, (the exceptions are Iran and Syria.)

Hamas do not care for their own people and they teach their children to fight.

If Hamas STOP firing weapon's into Israel, Israeli's will open their arms to the Palestinian people , End of story .

They do live a very different life to us.

Right

You did notice that the UN war houses are full to the brim when their are starving people

and

Iran will be next for a good strategic kicking. again stop making nuclear weapon's.

I could go on and on about this but if you under stand the first sentence you've got it

I hope this helps.

America is the only country in the world ever to use nuclear weapons. Twice. And to wipe out the entire Red Indian indiginous population of their country with guns. Strategic kicking, huh? And I generalise about Americans? Ha ha! I report what I see, and I have been to the States several times. I saw total racism, aggression and ignorance and an institutionalised culture of guns supported by the 'constitution'. Gun murders every night on the TV news. How admirable. I spent 6 weeks in Seattle and did not see ONE black person. Most Americans I met didn't even know where Iraq is. Nor where Israel is. Nor Iran. But they were all keen on nuking them all. Have a nice day.

[semiquaver]

Bullshark: Wrong: The proportion of Jews in Palestine tripled between 1922 and 1942. In 1948 the vast majority of Jews were immigrants from Europe.

Here's a link: http://www.tomhull.com/ocston/projects/ajvp/wp1.php

and Jet as far as Israel opening their arm to the Palestinians... there was an opportunity to do this before Hamas rose to power. Israel has been taking West Bank land throughout this period.

[bullshark]

Well, I've read papers that don't match those numbers, but in any case this isn't a war of numbers nor was it my point. Fact is, there are 3 religious group fighting to have control over land each group consider holly, and none of those group is more innocent or more guilty than the other.

[Bebop52]

Fact is, Bullshark, that Hamas are a tiny terrorist proportion of Palestinian people. Yet well over 1,000 ordinary civilians, trying to live in impossible circumstances, have been blown to bits by the Israelis, funded by USA. 13 Israelis have been killed. It IS a war of numbers. And it isn't even a war. It is indiscriminate murder of civilians. What newspapers do you read?

[Bebop52]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

guess what, no one is going to solve anything here.

so therefore, my comment was just as valid as anyone else's.

get off your asses, your keyboards, your lcd monitor and go do something about it

1) I don't have an LCD monitor. A ten years old CRT monitor. Still works well enough to read your dumb comments too.
2) When are you going to get off your ass? What have YOU done? Been to the local McDonalds?
3) I have written to the UN, what have you done?

Well, come on JBM, I would love to hear what you have done

[bullshark]

Fact is, the Palestinian were the one to walk away from the UN negotiating table and launch an attack on jewish people, thereby plunging the region into civil war. Now we're supposed to have a bleeding heart because they lost the war they started? Repeatedly? Again and again? Sorry, but I ain't buying.

As to the US being the source of all that is evil, they are the current superpower and their foreign policy is often less than enlightened, granted; But do tell me this, which nation would you rather have as a superpower? China? Russia? Or what about one of the smaller guy: Iran?

[Bebop52]

Originally Posted by bullshark

Fact is, the Palestinian were the one to walk away from the UN negotiating table and launch an attack on jewish people, thereby plunging the region into civil war. Now we're supposed to have a bleeding heart because they lost the war they started? Repeatedly? Again and again? Sorry, but I ain't buying.

As to the US being the source of all that is evil, they are the current superpower and their foreign policy is often less than enlightened, granted; But do tell me this, which nation would you rather have as a superpower? China? Russia? Or what about one of the smaller guy: Iran?

No, Sweden, who have never been involved in mass muderous wars. The Palestinians were and are the ones to try to survive in unbelievably cruel circumstances. Ordinary decent people, trying to look after their children, not armed terrorists. No bleeding heart here, just objective observation. I guarantee you have never even been out of USA. Hardly any Americans ever have. I don't see the Usa as the source of all evil, although the food there is pretty awful There are evil Russians, Chinese, Japanese, British, Germans, Dutch, you name the stupid nationalistic country. War for what? HArdly any Palestinians are terrorists, nor do they own guns.

[bullshark]

Errr, I ain't even American, and while I lived there for a while, I don't now; In fact, I now need a passport to get in.

Something which I find interesting thought, is that you're ready to paint all Americans the same color, thereby making no difference between the individuals and the government, but you aren't ready to extend the same "courtesy" to the Palestinians. I'm thinking double standard here, but what do I know.

[jamieson1974]

Originally Posted by Bebop52

I have been to the States several times... I saw total racism, aggression and ignorance and an institutionalised culture of guns supported by the 'constitution'. Gun murders every night on the TV news. How admirable. I spent 6 weeks in Seattle and did not see ONE black person.

Newflash, genius. In 4 days we will have a black president. Clearly, the majority isn't as you describe.
Congrats on all your postive insight. You must be a great source of pride to the United kingdom.
Stop your incessant whining and turn off your computer for an hour. It might do you some good.

[hamish]

I've been looking at the problem for a long time. I'm afraid to say as far as I can see Israel is reliably murderous in it's retaliations to very small offensives. *(I mean carpet bombing Lebanon because of one Israeli soldier)

The situation in Yiddish Supremist (The Polish Yiddish Terrorist Creators of "Israel") occupied palestine is a holocaust. http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m50995 This is incredibly ugly and tragic stuff.

On a much happier note it was fantastic in this thread to read about Daniel Barenboim and his orchestra. We have to have hope.

Bebop52 I've visited England a few times, but not since 911, seing as Blair and some people in the BBC would obviously know a lot about who really did that and also Blair is instrumental whith John Winston Howard in creating the Iraq WMD lies.

So I left Aus in 2005 to live in France. I refused to go back into England because the english have a deep culture of violence and murder. You only have to watch the movie 'snatch' and you know what I mean. My great-grandfather came the east end of london. The fact that English people haven't lynched Blair and hung him from a tree proves that all english people are cowards. You want Stupid? I lived in england. They think australians walk on the ceiling, 'cos it's upside down. When they take a shit they think it goes to australia.

Because of my interest in the Israel issue I delved into this timeline by a Baptist Christian in Canada

http://www.lloydthomas.org/1-IsraelT...lineIndex.html my favorit

I read this from about the year 430 to 1950, that took me three hours. It covers Muslim rule of Jerusalem, Christian periods and much more. Quick quote

'841
Virtually the whole population of Jerusalem (Jews, Christians, Muslims) flee in panic from a peasants revolt led by TAMIM ABU HARB. The city is plundered, including mosques and churches. The Anastasis escapes destruction by a large bribe paid by the Christian Patriarch.'

I challenge anyone to read the whole thing!

I advise most people who have posted on this thread to take a look, and find out how much you don't know.

If someone dislikes me describing the leaders of 'Israel' as Yiddish Supremacists please read Menachem Begin, the classic Polish Yiddish Supremacist. Also known as an Ashkenazi Jew, the majority of 'Jews' in the USA are Ahskenazi Jews. (No offence to anyone from Poland please, I know about genocide in australia too, but I don't support it)

[quote]

Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."

— Menachem Begin - Israeli Prime Minister 1977–1983

Now is 'Jew' a race or a Religion? Do the Genocidal Ashkenazi White Supremacist Yiddish represent Jews in the world?

In Russia there is an autonomous Region for Jews where the official language is Yiddish. Number of Palestinians they have killed since 1948 = 0. Number of Birobizhan Jews killed by Palestinians = 0. Conclusion The GAWSY represent the interests of AIPAC and those gutless, weak Israelis who let themselves be kept in terror by their own terrorist leaders.

A MASSIVE cheer to the incredibly gutsy Israeli Peace activists.

Now I could go on, but I have never visited Israel or the USA, and believe me I have no desire. I'd sooner visit Birobizhan.

I just try to make australia a better place in a small way.

[semiquaver]

Hamish?!? WTF?!? Look I am not a supporter of Israel's attack on Gaza here but this is absolute crap. I've been beating back the supporters of Israel on this very thread - have a lok. But this is just too much.

Data: Jews are either Sephardic or Ashkenazi - Sephardic Jews were dispersed from Spain in 1492 - all other European Jews are Ashkenazi. The notion of "Yiddish Suprematism" is retarded and dangerous.

The quote you ascribe to Begin is BS - it is ascribed to an article in the New Statesman from 1982 which in turn reports a speech Begin made in the Knesset. In that speech he did say that Palestinians were animals - beasts on two legs and yes that was racist crap. He did not call Jews the "Master Race" though.

The last round of paranoia about Jews and their secret plans for world domination ended in the MURDER of 6 million jews - SHUT YOUR FUCKING IGNORANT PIE HOLE before you do some real damage.

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by bullshark

Of course I do, and I can also see you cleverly removed "In this particular case" from the quotation.

oops, that totally wasnt intentional.

however, you are contradicting yourself anyway, within the same post! lol

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by Bebop52

1) I don't have an LCD monitor. A ten years old CRT monitor. Still works well enough to read your dumb comments too.
2) When are you going to get off your ass? What have YOU done? Been to the local McDonalds?
3) I have written to the UN, what have you done?

Well, come on JBM, I would love to hear what you have done

this has absolutely nothing to do with me. Im not the one bitching about this on a tiny internet forum.

nice try, however.

if you want it so bad, ill let you know that i do my part (or at least i try) with the people around me, and i promote education about all matters... yes, to REAL people, in flesh and blood...

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

oops, that totally wasnt intentional.

however, you are contradicting yourself anyway, within the same post! lol

No I'm not.

There are two main group of people fighting there. They're fighting over a piece of land, at least that's where most people stop in their reflexion.

I dig a single layer deeper and surmise that the difference between those two group is their religious affiliation, nothing else. Therefore, no religion, nothing to fall on to group people, therefore no fighting; especially not over some desert claimed to possess some kind of magical properties.

If you find contradiction in that, I sure hope you don't try to read the Qur’an, the bible or other idiotic book of the same kind, the contradictions in there will drive you nut.

Some will say that people will find other ways to separate themselves into groups and use that to start a fight. I say sure, that is true, but it doesn't make it acceptable and each one should be challenged, starting with the concept of nation which is utterly and totally ridiculous.

[bullshark]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

The last round of paranoia about Jews and their secret plans for world domination ended in the MURDER of 6 million jews

And you'd think we, we as we the human collective, would have learn something from that... But apparently not.

This:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMD9DNsWoA&fmt=18 from people claiming appurtenance to the same group of people who suffered through a holocaust. Isolated incident? Maybe, maybe not, but a crime committed in cold blood by individuals wearing an official uniform, therefore a crime sanctioned by a state.

I often think there is no end to the stupidity of the human race.

[Lokasenna]

Originally Posted by hamish

Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."

— Menachem Begin - Israeli Prime Minister 1977–1983

I can't find a SINGLE credible source for this quote. Please do some research before copy/pasting whatever tripe you find that supports your argument.

As for the two links you offered, they too are less than credible. The first is subtitled "information from occupied Iraq", which should tell you more than a little about the author's viewpoint.

The second, written by a Baptist with no apparent qualification in the subject, is likewise not a source worth quoting. Sure, the history appears accurate, but there are no citations or longer descriptions to accompany the two-line descriptions he gives of each specific event. All we get of a given incident is a very brief description, with no backstory, and his conclusion of whether it was Jewish terrorism or not. Did I mention that he doesn't seem to have any qualifications?

Find me information with a credible source, citations, and no obvious bias in the authorship, and we'll talk.

[Jae.Thomas]

strange, i think this quote would stand out here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin

but its not there.

snopes has refuted it... let me see if that is true