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Old 03-16-2020, 08:29 AM   #81
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I didnt mean get off the forum, just this thread. I meant it when I said your input is valued. I've certainly gained from it.
But mann...this impasse is just ridiculous.
But I'm not even making an impasse, I've tried hard to get a few things across:

1. Splits are invaluable for many of us so we shouldn't keep eluding that they aren't in an effort to add weight to these FR's - that's both ignorant and unfair. I will assume that the OP didn't really mean it this way.

2. I've done a lot of very complex audio work with takes/splits for ~10 years now. I know the system very well, I always notice when someone thinks they know it, when they don't (this is not directed at any single person so don't think I'm talking to any of you). So, I try to share that it's possible regardless of what one is used to. I've already limited doing this because so many are dug in and don't really care what can be done currently.

3. I have no issue whatsoever with adding options to help you guys out but calling the system broken and demanding revamping the take system ground up is simply not going to happen or help you guys - variations on playlists is the most sane path - for a lot of takes gripes.

As far as the forum, it's not due to your request, it's just that I've built this foundation of Reaper knowledge and most times I chime in, people are too stuck in their previous DAW to do anything other than give the proverbial finger - I don't find helping is something people really desire anymore if it has any chance whatsoever of temporarily taking them out of their PT comfort zone. I can easily fill my time other ways.
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Old 03-16-2020, 08:36 AM   #82
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You aren't reading my posts either, I didn't disagree with a damn thing you said other than to point out that assuming others don't find splits a good thing, is an incorrect/faulty statement. Please stop putting words in my mouth for this reply and start reading closer. That may not be what you meant, but asking the question begs misunderstanding...

Reminder...



Because for a huge number of user's they are valuable, that's why. I even mentioned adding options to satisfy you guys was fine? Are you guys so blinded by your need that you won't even digest comments that aren't = "hell yea" ? However, if you truly you understood, you might not be asking that question.

No, I'm reading your posts. And I didn't mean for you to take my post personally, and for that I apologize. I certainly wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

You said: "it's far better to just ask for playlists or additional options, but not understanding they work for others is a moot point."

I replied to the second half of that sentence, not the first part. Mainly because I personally have been asking for additional options every time this topic comes up, so I just ignored your statement because it didn't apply to me.

Hopefully that's clearer. You said I didn't understand something that we have been discussing for a long time, so I felt the need to reply... and maybe I took that the wrong way too.

No hard feelings?
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Old 03-16-2020, 08:38 AM   #83
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No hard feelings, for me passion != disliking someone or being hurt - just adding the tiny nitpick that I said/meant understanding "that" splits work for other users, not that you don't understand takes. Apologies if it sounded blunt, my just the facts mam personality doesn't come across well in writing.

Honestly, too bad you can't hang in my studio for a day and mine yours - I'm certain we'd both leave having nicer things Reaper wise - forums blow for this tbh.
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Old 03-16-2020, 08:42 AM   #84
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No hard feelings, for me passion != disliking someone or being hurt - just adding the tiny nitpick that I said/meant understanding "that" splits work for other users, not that you don't understand takes.

Honestly, too bad you can't hang in my studio for a day and mine yours - I'm certain we'd both leave having nicer things Reaper wise - forums blow for this tbh.

Agreed on all counts. :cheers:
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Old 03-17-2020, 11:40 AM   #85
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The best way to use takes, as it currently works is to be really neat with your recordings and try to keep them all the same length. Or clean them up after each pass. Or don't use the take system and just record how you like on multiple tracks.

Why haven't they added playlists?

I don't know.
It's just...sometimes you really cant record whole song at once and punching in is not the way..But just saying again - this is death to creativity many times, or cooking madness after recording if left for the finish.

But I understand the answer behind...again was not trying to dis or something, rather tried to stimul the change and better future
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Old 03-17-2020, 11:47 AM   #86
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But at some point, it feels to me that you're trying to change your car into behaving like a boat. I'm simply arguing to keep the car AND get a boat.
That's exactly what I meant, like it might looks straight fwd from our end but the impact of the change might be huge from the backend. And I am ok with that, therefore was just curious in previous post about the ability to make a workaround for this issue in such case - improve the autoheal function to embrace midi (pools) as well.
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Old 03-17-2020, 02:08 PM   #87
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That's exactly what I meant, like it might looks straight fwd from our end but the impact of the change might be huge from the backend. And I am ok with that, therefore was just curious in previous post about the ability to make a workaround for this issue in such case - improve the autoheal function to embrace midi (pools) as well.
If there's one thing I know about the dev team, is that they don't like to change things that work for people. Even if those people are in the minority.

So it's much easier to add something on top, that will keep existing users happy while making others users happier.

Any dramatic change to the current "take" system is going to piss some people off. Because they have a workflow that they don't want to change.
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Old 03-17-2020, 08:57 PM   #88
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If there's one thing I know about the dev team, is that they don't like to change things that work for people. Even if those people are in the minority.

So it's much easier to add something on top, that will keep existing users happy while making others users happier.

Any dramatic change to the current "take" system is going to piss some people off. Because they have a workflow that they don't want to change.
Makes perfect sense.

That's why I suggested earlier in this thread that they could implement an option in preferences to simply turn off the splits. When recording in take mode with this option ticked, then any takes smaller than the total length of the item could simply have the same little indents that we see right now if we extend an item's length past it's original boundaries. Those indents could indicate the start and end of a take. If a take is recorded onto an item that extends past the items start or end boundaries, the total item length simply extends, just as it does now, but if there is any empty space relative to the total item, then it simply fills the empty space with 'blank item' and creates no splits.

The downside would be when you're cycling through a set of takes, then those shorter ones would show as the take plus the blank space around it, but I'm fine with that, I don't actually see it as a downside, as I think it would would help me keep track of what take is what, especially on a complex comp with lots of short drop ins, and if I know I'm only pulling up one line from a take then I'll split it before I start cycling (with a macro that splits and places the crossfade on the side that I want, rather than predetermined like it is now).

I personally find the splits fiddly and messy/distracting to look at, and would prefer to just manually split the lines I know I want to comp after recording. Plus the splits can be frustrating when midi recording/overdubbing, as previously mentioned, and I work with midi a lot. It's a shame, as I LOVE everything else about the takes system in Reaper, I find it super intuitive and quick to use.

Maybe the only other thing that bothers me about the take system (and comping in general in Reaper) is that it's easy to lose a complex comp if you don't save it first, especially if you then drop in and record another take over the top of it. Yes I can quickly make a new child track and record through that, or switch to layers mode for a take, or manually save and name the comp, but it's easy to miss that in the heat of the moment, and you don't want to miss the perfect take, or lose the one you just spent 15 minutes of studio time comping, so the more intuitive it can be the better. The playlist suggestion would help with that issue, if I understand it correctly.
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Old 03-17-2020, 09:59 PM   #89
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Any dramatic change to the current "take" system is going to piss some people off. Because they have a workflow that they don't want to change.

Most people are asking for an option, not a overhaul of the entire system.
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Old 03-18-2020, 11:06 AM   #90
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To everyone who keeps saying again and again that we want to change how takes work for everybody while we should ask for an option instead, please read the title of this thread again, you may have missed it.


And yes, playlists would be another additional feature. Nobody wants to steal your preciousss here.
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Old 03-18-2020, 11:29 AM   #91
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To everyone who keeps saying again and again that we want to change how takes work for everybody while we should ask for an option instead, please read the title of this thread again, you may have missed it.


And yes, playlists would be another additional feature. Nobody wants to steal your preciousss here.
I just skimmed all 90 replies, didn't see any references to anyone not understanding the ask or against this being an option. It's possible we reminded it should be an option and I missed, but the bigger point is I don't think anyone disagrees with additional options regardless.
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Old 03-18-2020, 11:56 AM   #92
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A deep user of the Takes/Splits system here...and I see tremendous benefits to it over many other workflows (it's so damned fast once you're good with it), but I do have to call it for what it is - I *really* dislike the destructiveness and messyness of splits. I know nothing is truly destructive, but it has to do with keeping the integrity of the original takes whole, and the splits behaviour does the exact opposite of this - it obliterates it.

Especially in situations with many punch-ins, overlapping punch-ins, duplicating sections with lots of splits, the splits create some real headaches.



Like...that's only 3 punch-ins and there are SEVEN resultant items. Going about listening to a full contiguous take involves having to use actions such as "Set 1st/2nd/... take Active" then using "Cycle To Next/Previous Take", but in situations where it can fit multiple passes in a single lane (below: blue and purple) you end up potentially ruining already-comped sections that happen to share the same lane as you cycle.



...in other words, it's kind of a mess unless you're extremely careful. I've had to resort to using actions such as "SWS: Set time selection to selected items (skip if time selection exists)" when doing punch-ins, just to minimize the amount of split overlaps, cause it just gets NASTY after a while.
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Old 03-18-2020, 12:04 PM   #93
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...my "Zones" proposal on Page 1 (https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...0&postcount=31) gets us the BEST parts of the Take/Splits system (bam-bam-bam click your active takes, wham cycle through them with a keystroke, fast and awesome business as usual) without creating a nightmare out of your original takes.

In short, it's like having "virtual" splits that let you dice up what the Active Audible Take will be, while leaving everything completely intact. You can zero in on the second take for example, and stretch/pitch/anything without affecting anything else -- it's the Zone Boundaries that determine what is heard. Doing that in the current implementation is chaos -- you'd be exploding the takes, manipulating (oh and they're still full of splits, so now you're gluing and then stretching!), imploding back (oh and the splits don't match up now because you've glued some, so that messes things up), and yeah...

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Old 03-18-2020, 12:16 PM   #94
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Though I fear I'll get yelled at by someone, do you need them expanded like that? I almost forgot it looked like that since I never expand them and the need to expand (for me) is pretty close or at zero percent no matter how complex the takes/splits are.

If I had to deal with them the way you did in your screenshot, I'd likely get much less work done as it is way too fiddly and collapsed is such a godsend for me - Obviously, my way sucks for everyone else but someone, somewhere might see it and see the same value I found (in some distant parallel universe ):



I can do it ^that way, have 200 takes with 50 splits an create a whale of a result where the time taken is mostly just the time it takes to audition and decide.
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Old 03-18-2020, 12:43 PM   #95
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Though I fear I'll get yelled at by someone, do you need them expanded like that? I almost forgot it looked like that since I never expand them and the need to expand (for me) is pretty close or at zero percent no matter how complex the takes/splits are.

If I had to deal with them the way you did in your screenshot, I'd likely get much less work done as it is way too fiddly and collapsed is such a godsend for me - Obviously, my way sucks for everyone else but someone, somewhere might see it and see the same value I found (in some distant parallel universe ):



I can do it ^that way, have 200 takes with 50 splits an create a whale of a result where the time taken is mostly just the time it takes to audition and decide.
Haha no man I do get it...your method is clean and compact, at the expense of losing the overview of all the other takes of course, but you can always Ctrl-L. I might try working this way for a bit...it's still a compromise obviously, one fully rectified by my Zones thing haha
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Old 03-18-2020, 01:31 PM   #96
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Haha no man I do get it...your method is clean and compact, at the expense of losing the overview of all the other takes of course, but you can always Ctrl-L. I might try working this way for a bit...it's still a compromise obviously, one fully rectified by my Zones thing haha
No worries, I can never remember whom I asked and also it's not to devalue the FR - As I said I saw your screen grab and was like "oh yea" that is messy expanded.

As a side note - I depend heavily on the take number (take x of x) and the take auto-color. Without those working the way I do wouldn't be so efficient.

Either way take care and hopes for your collective FRs.
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Old 03-18-2020, 01:34 PM   #97
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one fully rectified by my Zones thing haha
I beginning to see the befit of your zones. Although I would welcome playlists as well.
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Old 03-19-2020, 05:19 PM   #98
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I actually like how reaper splits new takes. It can get messy though with multiple punch-ins, that's where time selection auto-punch comes in handy. But once you have created a mess, there's not really a way back...

Anyhow, I spent quite some time today writing a "little" script. It basically lets you record new takes without creating new splits. It doesn't extend items, I might add that if people are interested.

Simply toggle it on when you want that functionality as if it were a recording option. Let me know if it works for you or if you find bugs

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/38617/FTC_...w%20splits.lua

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Old 03-20-2020, 01:07 PM   #99
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No worries, I can never remember whom I asked and also it's not to devalue the FR - As I said I saw your screen grab and was like "oh yea" that is messy expanded.

As a side note - I depend heavily on the take number (take x of x) and the take auto-color. Without those working the way I do wouldn't be so efficient.

Either way take care and hopes for your collective FRs.
My clients often want to listen to a specific take again. How do you handle that without destroying your comping?

How do you keep track of which take contains which material?

How do you handle non-click-based music? This is the biggest mess of all.
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Old 03-20-2020, 01:42 PM   #100
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Pretty much everything I record is non-click based - see my signature.
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Old 03-20-2020, 02:35 PM   #101
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Huge +1 for ferropop’s Zones
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Old 03-20-2020, 03:36 PM   #102
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I ended up also making a script that allows extending items. Turns out the algorithm is actually simpler than the previous one.

Here are both in comparison. You can place them on a toolbar and just toggle them on when you want to record like this.

A: Without item extending



B: With item extending

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Old 03-20-2020, 04:53 PM   #103
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I ended up also making a script that allows extending items. Turns out the algorithm is actually simpler than the previous one.

Here are both in comparison. You can place them on a toolbar and just toggle them on when you want to record like this.
Great stuff!!! Will try it as soon as possible. Are you planning on uploading it to the ReaTeam repo or fo you have your own repo for ReaPack?
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Old 03-20-2020, 05:25 PM   #104
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Huge +1 for ferropop’s Zones
The more I think about it, I think the solution is Playlists + Zones.

Why would you want all of your punches to be based on items when they could be based on playlists?

Then you can use zones to comp from those playlists.
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Old 03-20-2020, 05:55 PM   #105
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The more I think about it, I think the solution is Playlists + Zones.

Why would you want all of your punches to be based on items when they could be based on playlists?

Then you can use zones to comp from those playlists.
Heartily agree with this.
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Old 03-20-2020, 08:08 PM   #106
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The more I think about it, I think the solution is Playlists + Zones.

Why would you want all of your punches to be based on items when they could be based on playlists?

Then you can use zones to comp from those playlists.
So the zones would be tied to the track (and its playlists) instead of to an item? But then you wouldn't be able to drag the whole thing around like a consolidated group, right?
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Old 03-20-2020, 09:14 PM   #107
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But then you wouldn't be able to drag the whole thing around like a consolidated group, right?
Not sure what you mean. Drag it where?
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Old 03-20-2020, 09:31 PM   #108
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Moving that section around the project (playlists and all) during the arrangement process. If they are grouped into a single item with takes and zones, the whole section is treated as a unit, making things seem a little cleaner to me.
Unless I'm missing something here.
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Old 03-21-2020, 02:50 AM   #109
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Heartily agree with this.
Me too! Playlist and Zones would cover us!
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Old 03-21-2020, 04:19 AM   #110
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Great stuff!!! Will try it as soon as possible. Are you planning on uploading it to the ReaTeam repo or fo you have your own repo for ReaPack?
Thanks mate, no such plan as of yet. I don't even know if works for anybody.

The issue I find with recording takes like this is that it gets hard to cleanly cut the punch-ins afterwards, since you can not snap the cursor to take starts inside items (to my knowledge).

I'm thinking that once we get the new take markers, I'll add take markers at punch-in start and end. Along with a new action "Split item at take markers in selected take". Then you can easily split where you deem necessary, after recording with no splits.
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Old 03-21-2020, 04:19 AM   #111
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Me too! Playlist and Zones would cover us!
I think a combination of playlists and area selection is much better. A BIG advantage of playlists is that your original takes stay untouched. You always keep perfect track of what you've got and comp in a clean playlist. Selecting the area of an item you want to copy to the comping playlist is pretty easily done.
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Old 03-21-2020, 05:35 AM   #112
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I was thinking a lot about zones this morning and how I would go about it if I were to implement them.

Let's start with the zones mockup. The item at the very bottom conveniently is the the longest. What happens if have two items and record a new item over both of them?
The only thing that makes sense to me, is that now all three items are one new "item". So an "item" in the zones concept is effectively a super-item, which is a collection (or group) of all items that overlap.

Easy, that would work, just add an option "When layers not visible, group overlapping items", and you could drag them around like a single item.

But what object holds the information about the zones? It doesn't make sense that it is the track, since zones should always move with the items. So it has to be the super-item.

Cockos would have to effectively introduce some kind of super-item, which has its own visual representation and properties. And even though I like the concept of zones, I do have to say that I don't this this is a good idea. It would add another degree of complexity to reaper, which would only be justified if takes are fully abolished and we are only left with items.
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Old 03-21-2020, 08:10 AM   #113
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Let's start with the zones mockup. The item at the very bottom conveniently is the the longest. What happens if have two items and record a new item over both of them?
I believe those "items" are actually takes. Takes would be able to have offsets and sizes within the item itself (and the item size would be the size of the largest take).
It doesn't feel more complicated than the other suggestions to me.
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Old 03-21-2020, 08:26 AM   #114
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I was thinking a lot about zones this morning and how I would go about it if I were to implement them.

Let's start with the zones mockup. The item at the very bottom conveniently is the the longest. What happens if have two items and record a new item over both of them?
The only thing that makes sense to me, is that now all three items are one new "item". So an "item" in the zones concept is effectively a super-item, which is a collection (or group) of all items that overlap.

Easy, that would work, just add an option "When layers not visible, group overlapping items", and you could drag them around like a single item.

But what object holds the information about the zones? It doesn't make sense that it is the track, since zones should always move with the items. So it has to be the super-item.

Cockos would have to effectively introduce some kind of super-item, which has its own visual representation and properties. And even though I like the concept of zones, I do have to say that I don't this this is a good idea. It would add another degree of complexity to reaper, which would only be justified if takes are fully abolished and we are only left with items.
FeedTheCat, I don't see any need to get into this Super Item stuff...if you record a take that overlaps two items, it all just connects into a big item, no? I can't see what problem that would create.

Sort of like this :



...but imagine that those 3 takes are now an item. I don't have Adobe Premiere to mock up the look of them all being part of an item haha, but do you see what I mean? They all just become connected into a big item, and you add zones where you want them, or SPLIT it (if you choose!) if that's useful to you, leaving Splits to their actual intended use, to Split things when you want to separate them, not as an active-take boundary.
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Old 03-21-2020, 08:42 AM   #115
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Here's a better example....this is Reaper's "Layers" behaviour.



Now imagine if any overlap just connected them into an item, and in that item you can use Zones to dice up your comp. All the "layers" stay intact, it's the Zones that determine what you hear. And (like Free Item Positioning, again something we already have) you can go in and move/stretch/chop-up the Layers independently from one another...everything stays inside the item and moves with the item.

It's similar to combining Playlists and Zones like Kenny said above.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:16 AM   #116
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Here's a better example....this is Reaper's "Layers" behaviour.



Now imagine if any overlap just connected them into an item, and in that item you can use Zones to dice up your comp. All the "layers" stay intact, it's the Zones that determine what you hear. And (like Free Item Positioning, again something we already have) you can go in and move/stretch/chop-up the Layers independently from one another...everything stays inside the item and moves with the item.

It's similar to combining Playlists and Zones like Kenny said above.
I would just avoid using the word "item" here. I think it makes it more confusing and somewhat limiting.

Think of playlists as full tracks which contain many items of varying sizes with no relationship to each other.

Zones just decides which playlist will play when. And by NOT making this based on Items, it won't change the current Take system we already have.

Zones is basically like voice stealing where only one playlist will play at a time. But this eliminates any reason to worry about the sizes of our Items. No need to shrink or expand them.
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Old 03-21-2020, 11:00 AM   #117
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Thank you guys for the explanation and illustration.

Just read Kenny's post,
was about to say that combining these sort of takes into traditional items would be hard. In layer/take 1 used in the example there would have to be two media sources in a single take. But takes have one source by design, and I doubt Justin is willing to change something that fundamental.

Still have to wrap my head around playlists, since I've never used Pro Tools.
I'll watch some video about it so I can better understand what you mean.

P.S. I guess you don't have a video about playlists do you Kenny? That would help ^^

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Old 03-21-2020, 12:18 PM   #118
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Thank you guys for the explanation and illustration.

Just read Kenny's post,
was about to say that combining these sort of takes into traditional items would be hard. In layer/take 1 used in the example there would have to be two media sources in a single take. But takes have one source by design, and I doubt Justin is willing to change something that fundamental.

Still have to wrap my head around playlists, since I've never used Pro Tools.
I'll watch some video about it so I can better understand what you mean.

P.S. I guess you don't have a video about playlists do you Kenny? That would help ^^
I might make a video of how I think this should all work.

When thinking of playlists themselves, forget about comping. That's a separate thing. Think of playlists as tracks. Imagine if you could have multiple tracks all contained in one track. Like we do with takes in items. You just choose which playlist you want to play at one time.
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Old 03-21-2020, 12:58 PM   #119
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Yeah man my original Zones mockup was tacked onto the "item" paradigm because in Reaper we don't have area selection and it just makes more sense with the current situation, but I do see the benefit in being free of that limitation like you're saying -- but only IF we had Area Selection so that the Zones could move along with everything when duplicating.

If Zones are free-form and tied to the track instead of the item, I think this would all work awesomely if they reliably duplicated when you say, copy/pasted a comped chorus etc.
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Old 03-21-2020, 02:08 PM   #120
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Yeah man my original Zones mockup was tacked onto the "item" paradigm because in Reaper we don't have area selection and it just makes more sense with the current situation, but I do see the benefit in being free of that limitation like you're saying -- but only IF we had Area Selection so that the Zones could move along with everything when duplicating.

If Zones are free-form and tied to the track instead of the item, I think this would all work awesomely if they reliably duplicated when you say, copy/pasted a comped chorus etc.
I'm almost thinking about them like take markers. Call them zone markers that would tell REAPER which playlist to play and when.
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