Old 07-20-2019, 10:01 PM   #1
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Default Help, I'm going crazy...

Relating to this thread:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=223151

I have a project with about 30 tracks, 69 fx plugins, running at about 40-45% CPU. Even just clicking a solo or mute causes a short audio "glitch" (scratchy audio and sometimes a brief slowdown). All CPU cores appear to be in use, and none peak out that I can see.

I've beat the SHIT out of Reaper many, many times; much larger projects hitting MUCH, MUCH higher CPU usage without a single glitch. This is messed up.

This is my first time running my machine at 64 bit. Could that be causing this? Any other ideas? I'm in the middle of an important mix, and this is killing me...
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:09 PM   #2
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A rogue plugin perhaps? Have you got a new plugin playing up?

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Old 07-20-2019, 10:19 PM   #3
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A rogue plugin perhaps? Have you got a new plugin playing up?

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Nope.
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:20 PM   #4
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Another thought:

I have a few bridged 32 bit plugins in the project. Could that be contributing?
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:25 PM   #5
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Another thought:

I have a few bridged 32 bit plugins in the project. Could that be contributing?
Doesn't appear so. I just removed them from the project and it still happens.
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:32 PM   #6
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Even starting and stopping the project playback cause a tiny, short glitch.
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:51 PM   #7
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Is this a kind of "Live" usage ?

If not you could increase the audio buffer size (and with that the latency). This should help to avoid audio glitches.

In fact when switching to 64 bit, you obviously reinstalled the audio ASIO drivers (which one do you use), and here a different buffer size might have been chosen.
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Old 07-20-2019, 11:10 PM   #8
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Is this a kind of "Live" usage ?

If not you could increase the audio buffer size (and with that the latency). This should help to avoid audio glitches.

In fact when switching to 64 bit, you obviously reinstalled the audio ASIO drivers (which one do you use), and here a different buffer size might have been chosen.
-Michael
Not a "live" usage. Mixing. Buffer is 512. Going bigger doesn't help, but smaller makes it worse.
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Old 07-20-2019, 11:41 PM   #9
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I'd recommend running LatencyMon to rule out hardware driver issues.

Watch this vid to understand how other drivers can interfere with audio processes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUsLLEkswzE
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Old 07-21-2019, 06:11 PM   #10
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I'd recommend running LatencyMon to rule out hardware driver issues.

Watch this vid to understand how other drivers can interfere with audio processes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUsLLEkswzE
Thanks much, I've learned a lot!

DPC Latency Checker says I'm good, but LatencyMon, not so much. Apparently I've got not so good real time performance, CPU is fine.

Light weight projects (i.e. tracking, few plugins, etc) cause no problems, but mix (described above) glitches often. Suggestions?
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:56 PM   #11
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Several suggestions in the end of the said video.
You also might want to take a look here -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=213568#4
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:22 PM   #12
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Well, I'm still baffled.

Ozone 5 seems to be the biggest problem, but not the only one.

So I disabled Ozone 5 and added a ton of other plugins on the same track, until I got to about the same CPU. Reaper behaved very well, up until I hit about 60% CPU, which is more than the 45%-ish that I am getting with with Ozone.

Shouldn't I be getting better performance with an i7 2.2 quad core (nice even CPU distribution)? I had an old Dell laptop with nowhere near the horsepower, and mixed an entire album with CPU running at 70%+ and no problems.

I have tried what has been suggested here and more, and nothing has helped. Another odd thing is I increase my device buffer from 512 to 2048, and it made things slightly WORSE.

Anyone have any ideas? I'm generally pretty good at sorting out techy problems (wrote a little code for a while, etc), but this has me stumped, big time!

All help very, very much appreciated!
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfpotter View Post
DPC Latency Checker says I'm good, but LatencyMon, not so much. Apparently I've got not so good real time performance,
Ok what process is it saying is making your computer poor for real-time performance?

Also you said you did everything suggested here "and more"...but I have to ask if you did at least change your Windows power settings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdb4iybN8gg&t=7m

Also what's your audio device, what driver are you using, did you switch to a new audio device when you changed computers, etc.
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:07 PM   #14
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Shouldn't I be getting better performance with an i7 2.2 quad core (nice even CPU distribution)?
As the video points out the CPU itself usually is not what hampers realtime performance. In many cases the graphics is the problem. Internal GPUs in a chip mostly use shared memory, which might spawn a latency problem. Reducing the graphics resolution might help. At best you should use an external GPU (available on Graphic cards, on USB-attached devices, and on appropriate motherboards: Desktops and "gaming"-laptops.
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:13 PM   #15
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Ok what process is it saying is making your computer poor for real-time performance?

Also you said you did everything suggested here "and more"...but I have to ask if you did at least change your Windows power settings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdb4iybN8gg&t=7m

Also what's your audio device, what driver are you using, did you switch to a new audio device when you changed computers, etc.
Yes, I've done everything. Thoroughly. I've tested 2 devices with the same results: a Saffire Pro 40, and my Line 6 UX2, both of which have been bulletproof.
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:15 PM   #16
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As the video points out the CPU itself usually is not what hampers realtime performance. In many cases the graphics is the problem. Internal GPUs in a chip mostly use shared memory, which might spawn a latency problem. Reducing the graphics resolution might help. At best you should use an external GPU (available on Graphic cards, on USB-attached devices, and on appropriate motherboards: Desktops and "gaming"-laptops.
-Michael
I understand that completely. BUT, does that mean my Macbook Pro is inadequate? Seems odd.
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:19 PM   #17
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Well if you've done absolutely everything, sorry but I have no idea. "Your computer is broken" sounds like as good an answer as anything. Seriously though if you're not going to outline everything you've done and you won't answer the question about what Latencymon told you, what do we have to go on. We are only now getting some details about your system for that matter.

Anyway onboard GPU never hurt the performance I had in Reaper, so I doubt it's that in itself. It could be a buggy video driver or some poor resource allocation.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:05 PM   #18
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BUT, does that mean my Macbook Pro is inadequate? Seems odd.
I have no knowledge about how the graphics hardware is crafted in such devices. But "obviously" laptops are not as much designed with realtime performance in mind as decent deskop boxes, as with laptops, obviously power saving needs to be one of the main things in focus.
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:43 PM   #19
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Well if you've done absolutely everything, sorry but I have no idea. "Your computer is broken" sounds like as good an answer as anything. Seriously though if you're not going to outline everything you've done and you won't answer the question about what Latencymon told you, what do we have to go on. We are only now getting some details about your system for that matter.

Anyway onboard GPU never hurt the performance I had in Reaper, so I doubt it's that in itself. It could be a buggy video driver or some poor resource allocation.
What should I post from LatencyMon? Right now it say my rig is fine for real time audio. When I run the Reaper project in question, it says I'm not fine, but the same services are running.

All drivers are up to date. I've tried stopping services, shutting things off (hardware and software). Doing everything outlined in the video.

Same results...

Edit: LatencyMon changed as I'm typing this. Now it says "appears to be having trouble", etc. The 3 drivers/services that seem to cause the most trouble are scsiport.sys, acpi.sys, and wdf01000.sys.

Does that help? Advice?
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:47 PM   #20
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I have no knowledge about how the graphics hardware is crafted in such devices. But "obviously" laptops are not as much designed with realtime performance in mind as decent deskop boxes, as with laptops, obviously power saving needs to be one of the main things in focus.
-Michael
Yes, thanks. My system is set up for performance in power settings. My graphics card is the AMD Radeon HD 6750M.
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:50 PM   #21
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Also, anyone know how (if possible) to disable CPU throttling on a MacBook Pro?
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Old 07-24-2019, 05:25 PM   #22
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That screen shot is too small for me to see anything.

You're running Windows 7 on a MacBook? I just read a post in your other thread (while I was trying to find more details of your system). Post as many details of your system as possible.

How to stop CPU throttling "on a Mac" depends on your OS. If you're running Windows 7 on it as you said in the other thread (and based on the files you mentioned here), you disable throttling in the Windows Power settings as I'd mentioned. (Choose "high performance" power profile and/or edit it to ensure the CPU's frequency isn't throttled. Among other things, like USB and hard drives going to sleep and so on.)

Scsiport.sys is apparently a process of Microsoft Office. If you're leaving it running at all, stop it. Check whatever options in MS Office to not leave anything running in the background (I haven't used MS Office in over 15 years so I don't know where this setting is or if it can be disabled). This is one of the general steps you should've already taken: disable anything running in the background that you don't need for audio (or for the OS in general). I hope you're not running a virus scanner including Windows Defender, Windows Update, file indexing, Skype, automatic backups or whatever.

The other 2 processes are involved with the system talking to hardware. It seems there's some kind of system configuration issue if they're showing as problematic. Perhaps your video driver needs updating or rolling back (or any other driver for that matter).

Latencymon should be run without a DAW active, as far as I know.

Have you tried running Mac OS on the MacBook and tried the Mac version of Reaper? At least as a test. I'm guessing you can boot to Mac OS right now...unless you made it a Windows-only machine...
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Old 07-24-2019, 06:31 PM   #23
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That screen shot is too small for me to see anything.

You're running Windows 7 on a MacBook? I just read a post in your other thread (while I was trying to find more details of your system). Post as many details of your system as possible.

How to stop CPU throttling "on a Mac" depends on your OS. If you're running Windows 7 on it as you said in the other thread (and based on the files you mentioned here), you disable throttling in the Windows Power settings as I'd mentioned. (Choose "high performance" power profile and/or edit it to ensure the CPU's frequency isn't throttled. Among other things, like USB and hard drives going to sleep and so on.)

Scsiport.sys is apparently a process of Microsoft Office. If you're leaving it running at all, stop it. Check whatever options in MS Office to not leave anything running in the background (I haven't used MS Office in over 15 years so I don't know where this setting is or if it can be disabled). This is one of the general steps you should've already taken: disable anything running in the background that you don't need for audio (or for the OS in general). I hope you're not running a virus scanner including Windows Defender, Windows Update, file indexing, Skype, automatic backups or whatever.

The other 2 processes are involved with the system talking to hardware. It seems there's some kind of system configuration issue if they're showing as problematic. Perhaps your video driver needs updating or rolling back (or any other driver for that matter).

Latencymon should be run without a DAW active, as far as I know.

Have you tried running Mac OS on the MacBook and tried the Mac version of Reaper? At least as a test. I'm guessing you can boot to Mac OS right now...unless you made it a Windows-only machine...
I have everything set up for performance - power settings, nothing goes to sleep, etc. I always set my DAW's up that way. I have nothing from MS Office installed. All drivers appear to be up to date (remember, I'm on Bootcamp). I've tried turning EVERYTHING off (network adapters, internal sound, antivirus, etc).

No dice....
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Old 07-24-2019, 06:32 PM   #24
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Are there reports from LatencyMon that I can post here that will potentially help?
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Old 07-24-2019, 06:38 PM   #25
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I would go back and inspect your plugins. I responded to your other thread about Ozone...in which I have a similar issue, and more.

Someone recommended I look at the plugs to see which is causing, usually the one with the most PDC. You can find it by cntrl-clicking a plugin to bring up the fx chain window and it will show PDC in lower left corner.

Sure enough, Ozone has some crazy 10,000+ sample latency. The bigger a project gets, the more this comes into play. My rig is pretty strong, but still has issues with high PDC plugs.

My advice, if you're going to mix AND master in the same project, make sure you're doing the mix first, then start your master plugs at a point when you're actually done with the mix, done having to solo tracks, edit items, etc. Then the issues with those actions and high PDC don't come into play, you're just working on that master (preferably sub-master) track processing.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:04 PM   #26
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I have everything set up for performance - power settings, nothing goes to sleep, etc. I always set my DAW's up that way. I have nothing from MS Office installed. All drivers appear to be up to date (remember, I'm on Bootcamp). I've tried turning EVERYTHING off (network adapters, internal sound, antivirus, etc).

No dice....
I looked up that file, I got some results which said it was from MS Office, so that's all I really had to go on. I don't recall that process ever being a problem for me in Windows.

I didn't say you should necessarily have the latest drivers. I said perhaps your video driver needs updating or rolling back (or any other driver for that matter). A newer driver might be problematic, and rolling back (to an older driver) might be better. As for Bootcamp, I've only read about that today; I've never run Windows on a Mac. I have no idea why using Bootcamp might mean it's going to be better or worse than regular Windows installs.

Anyway if you want to list all your running processes from Windows Task Manager, if something stands out maybe that'll provide a hint. A screenshot won't help if it's illegible so host it somewhere else or just copy/paste the info.

But with someone else saying Ozone is to blame, I'd consider that first. (Except of course if Latencymon says your system could use improvement for realtime audio use.)

And again: have you tried running Reaper for Mac on Mac OS? And Ozone for Mac. You want to know if it's the OS/configuration, just reboot into Mac OS and try the software there instead. It's a great way to narrow your troubleshooting.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:13 PM   #27
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I looked up that file, I got some results which said it was from MS Office, so that's all I really had to go on. I don't recall that process ever being a problem for me in Windows.

I didn't say you should necessarily have the latest drivers. I said perhaps your video driver needs updating or rolling back (or any other driver for that matter). A newer driver might be problematic, and rolling back (to an older driver) might be better. As for Bootcamp, I've only read about that today; I've never run Windows on a Mac. I have no idea why using Bootcamp might mean it's going to be better or worse than regular Windows installs.

Anyway if you want to list all your running processes from Windows Task Manager, if something stands out maybe that'll provide a hint. A screenshot won't help if it's illegible so host it somewhere else or just copy/paste the info.

But with someone else saying Ozone is to blame, I'd consider that first. (Except of course if Latencymon says your system could use improvement for realtime audio use.)

And again: have you tried running Reaper for Mac on Mac OS? And Ozone for Mac. You want to know if it's the OS/configuration, just reboot into Mac OS and try the software there instead. It's a great way to narrow your troubleshooting.
Yeah, I'm not going to use OSX, lol. Not very familiar with it.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:21 PM   #28
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Familiarity isn't the issue. Install Reaper and Ozone, try it. You might find the issue immediately.

Also you can list your running processes in Windows Task Manager.

Or you can keep taking blind stabs in the dark on this forum.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:23 PM   #29
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Again, thanks for the input, everyone.

Obviously Ozone 5 is causing some strain on the system, but as I stated, I can disable it and add a bunch of other plugins, and I'll start getting similar symptoms, but at around 60% CPU instead of 45%-ish.

Either way, as I also posted, I find this all odd. My old POS Dell could be pushed to over 80% CPU with Reaper, without the slightest hint of a problem. Almost all of my plugins in this project are Waves or stock Reaper, none have ever failed me.

I should change my name to Stumped Potter.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:25 PM   #30
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You can keep being stumped or you can try running the same software on Mac OS. As a test. It should take minutes.

I'd never used a Mac before but I was given a Macbook a few years ago. I had my audio device set up in Reaper in less than 5 minutes, working on a project.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:28 PM   #31
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You can keep being stumped or you can try running the same software on Mac OS. As a test. It should take minutes.

I'd never used a Mac before but I was given a Macbook a few years ago. I had my audio device set up in Reaper in less than 5 minutes, working on a project.
It would be an ENORMOUS pain in the ass. I'd have to install every plugin that I have on my Windows setup (doubt I even could) to replicate the exact same scenario. Not realistic.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:34 PM   #32
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It would be an ENORMOUS pain in the ass. I'd have to install every plugin that I have on my Windows setup (doubt I even could) to replicate the exact same scenario. Not realistic.
Are you saying now that you can only make this problem happen if you are running lots of different plugins? I thought it was something you could replicate easily without a complex project.

How about this: make a simpler project that exhibits this behavior. Just a test project, set up with arbitrary audio tracks wherever you need them. Run Ozone at least and how many other plugins you need to make things go wonky. Use Reaper's own plugins for the rest (reapitch for instance uses a fair amount of cpu even in the default "doing nothing" setting). Save the project. Boot to Mac OS, install Reaper and Ozone (that'll take a few minutes). Open the project, test it. I've done this kind of thing many times with different versions of Windows, Mac, and different distros of Linux (and/or with different Kernels). Not using Ozone of course, but any plugins which were available on the different OSes. It's a fast test and you'll learn from it.

In case I wasn't clear: a project you make in Windows will open in Reaper on Mac OS or Linux. You just need the same plugins. So you want to test Ozone for sure, that's worth installing for the test. The rest, just use Reaper's own plugins. That'll save time.

Anyway a side note: support for Windows 7 is ending. You should consider using Mac OS especially if you're already using a Macbook. It works similar enough to Windows, and you'll learn the differences quickly enough. You move the cursor and click on things.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:47 PM   #33
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Are you saying now that you can only make this problem happen if you are running lots of different plugins? I thought it was something you could replicate easily without a complex project.

How about this: make a simpler project that exhibits this behavior. Just a test project, set up with arbitrary audio tracks wherever you need them. Run Ozone at least and how many other plugins you need to make things go wonky. Use Reaper's own plugins for the rest (reapitch for instance uses a fair amount of cpu even in the default "doing nothing" setting). Save the project. Boot to Mac OS, install Reaper and Ozone (that'll take a few minutes). Open the project, test it. I've done this kind of thing many times with different versions of Windows, Mac, and different distros of Linux (and/or with different Kernels). Not using Ozone of course, but any plugins which were available on the different OSes. It's a fast test and you'll learn from it.

In case I wasn't clear: a project you make in Windows will open in Reaper on Mac OS or Linux. You just need the same plugins. So you want to test Ozone for sure, that's worth installing for the test. The rest, just use Reaper's own plugins. That'll save time.

Anyway a side note: support for Windows 7 is ending. You should consider using Mac OS especially if you're already using a Macbook. It works similar enough to Windows, and you'll learn the differences quickly enough. You move the cursor and click on things.
I explained that mostly I have no problems. If I remove Ozone, no problem, etc. If I remove Ozone and add a ton of other plugins, no problem up until about 60% CPU usage, vs around 45% with Ozone on. The obvious answer is remove Ozone, but that still doesn't answer:

A: why am I running into issues at 45-60% on a much more powerful computer that my old Dell, which I could easily push over 80% with ZERO artifacts

B: why does LatencyMon say I've got these issues with real-time audio (I'm new to LatencyMon)
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Old 07-24-2019, 08:01 PM   #34
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I don't have either of your computers, and you're being really scant about the specifics of both. I can't help you and I doubt anyone else can at this point. You need to try some things. Wouldn't you like to know if your Windows setup on that computer is the problem? You can test that in the amount time it'll take to read this, think of a reply, type and post it. And then if it works much better in Mac OS, my recommendation is ditch Windows 7 especially when you're already using a Mac and can be running Mac OS instead. But aside from that: you'll know if your hardware is a problem and not just the OS/configuration.

Think of a better troubleshooting avenue than that.
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Old 07-24-2019, 08:35 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
I don't have either of your computers, and you're being really scant about the specifics of both. I can't help you and I doubt anyone else can at this point. You need to try some things. Wouldn't you like to know if your Windows setup on that computer is the problem? You can test that in the amount time it'll take to read this, think of a reply, type and post it. And then if it works much better in Mac OS, my recommendation is ditch Windows 7 especially when you're already using a Mac and can be running Mac OS instead. But aside from that: you'll know if your hardware is a problem and not just the OS/configuration.

Think of a better troubleshooting avenue than that.
Man, you should sell Mac shit. Seriously. I'm a sales manager, want a job, lol?

All good, man, thanks so much for your help, for real!
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Old 07-24-2019, 08:38 PM   #36
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You do realize I run Linux, right? Not a lot of sales for that...

I'm just saying when the choice is between an end-of-life OS, and one which might even run better (that you can test right now), it's at least worth a test. That could cut your troubleshooting in half. If there's no difference in performance then you've really narrowed it down. If there is a noticeable difference in performance, you've also narrowed it down a lot (but now your choice is to continue troubleshooting Windows, or switch to Mac OS).

And I won't bother convincing you to run Linux. If you're annoyed at trying Mac OS, your head would asplode with Linux.
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Old 07-24-2019, 08:42 PM   #37
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To everyone that has replied or tried to help: thank you so much, I really appreciate you taking time to help me!

I'm pretty sure I just "figured out" what will work for me at this time, hopefully this helps others:

It's Ozone. The Maximizer is BRUTAL on your system/CPU, if you have it set to IRC 2 or 3. If you need those, use them at "mastering time". If you want Ozone on a bus, turn that shit down to IRC1 or Hard or Soft. You can also turn off the Intersample Detection and and dithering if you want, until mastering time.

I still want to improve my system's LatencyMon stuff, but I'm good for now. Perhaps my ignorance of my plugin's working will help someone down the road, lol!

Cheers!

PS - and still open to ideas about getting better CPU performance, relative to this thread....
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Old 07-24-2019, 08:44 PM   #38
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You do realize I run Linux, right? Not a lot of sales for that...

I'm just saying when the choice is between an end-of-life OS, and one which might even run better (that you can test right now), it's at least worth a test. That could cut your troubleshooting in half. If there's no difference in performance then you've really narrowed it down. If there is a noticeable difference in performance, you've also narrowed it down a lot (but now your choice is to continue troubleshooting Windows, or switch to Mac OS).

And I won't bother convincing you to run Linux. If you're annoyed at trying Mac OS, your head would asplode with Linux.
Nah, not experienced with Linux much, but I wrote code for part of my job for a while, I'm sure I'd survive, lol. See above...
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Old 07-25-2019, 12:44 AM   #39
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I am somewhat surprised that you evidently think running Reaper and your VST plugs in a version of windows that is long obsolete as a sub-install on a machine running OSX will NOT give you problems.

One though: you are saying you don`t want to do a separate Reaper install on the OSX side, because of all the effort to install yout plugins, but what you already did was way more work!
The other alternative would be to get a machine designed to run Windows, of course.

Maybe just install a portable reaper on the Nac side & another iteration of Ozone - at least that way you can see if Ozone behaves better on the native OS for your machine. That way you will know for sure that any effort you make as far as a full reinstall on the OSX side is or isnt worth the effort.

Life`s a bitch sometimes, aint it? Good luck!
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Old 07-25-2019, 01:08 AM   #40
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Supposedly optimized Windows drivers for Apple hardware are not easily available

Doing weird stuff and not clearly stating this while asking for help seems rather impolite.
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