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Old 10-11-2020, 12:48 AM   #1
eq1
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Default Crackle n' pop w/ Dragon Fly Hall reverb plug-in

I have Dragon Fly Hall reverb VST on a midi track - as well as on a guitar track. I get a crackly pop noise in the same locations in the song, over and over. I've narrowed it down to Dragon Fly on the midi track - when I disable it the crackle goes away. The weird thing is, the midi part isn't even playing when the crackle happens, it's like just some random noise that's getting injected into the mix, only it's not 'random', it happens in the same places, or at least in one place over and over. Not sure about the other places...

I have no problem with it on the guitar track, works fine. The midi track has a Korg M1 VST plug-in on it.

Anyone have ideas as to why this is happening? It's not a very big project, CPU overhead is only about 5-6% max...
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Old 10-11-2020, 01:25 AM   #2
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Are you using a "proper" Audio/MIDI interface or the built-in soundcard in your computer?

If you have an interface, are you using its ASIO driver within Reaper?
If you are using an ASIO driver, what ASIO buffer size are you using?

Say for arguments sake you have the ASIO buffer set at 64, try raising it to 128 ^ see if that helps.

Moving on, another thing worth trying is to download and run resplendence.com`s latency checker which will tell you if your computer setup has any issues affecting latency, which is generally the root cause of snap crackle `n pop.
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Old 10-11-2020, 05:18 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Are you using a "proper" Audio/MIDI interface or the built-in soundcard in your computer?
Proper interface, an E-MU 1616m (PCIe card with a breakout audio box).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
If you have an interface, are you using its ASIO driver within Reaper?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
If you are using an ASIO driver, what ASIO buffer size are you using? Say for arguments sake you have the ASIO buffer set at 64, try raising it to 128 ^ see if that helps.
Not sure about the "size" in (bytes? samples? - 64, 128). Where would I find that setting?

When I go into audio device settings, ASIO configuration, the "ASIO buffer latency" - the only setting in the pop-up window - is set to 5ms. I had tried bumping that up to 10ms but still got the crackle n' pop noise.

In the "audio buffering" settings, media buffer size is set to 1200ms...

Below that setting there's an "anticipative effects" setting, that's checked, I had tried unchecking that and the noise remained...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Moving on, another thing worth trying is to download and run resplendence.com`s latency checker which will tell you if your computer setup has any issues affecting latency, which is generally the root cause of snap crackle `n pop.
Thanks for the tip, I'll try that out...
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Old 10-12-2020, 12:08 AM   #4
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A few updates:

-Apparently it isn't Dragon Fly reverb - I experimented some more, enabling and disabling that, and I still got the crackle with it disabled.

-The crackle doesn't always happen. It seems to happen in the same locations of the song, but it doesn't happen every time (play) in every location.

-I experimented with the 'media buffer' setting. I increased it from 1200ms to 2000ms and the crackle seemed to happen more. I decreased it to 1000ms and now I don't hear the crackle (??).

With this last setting I've gone over the spot that's most prone to crackle consistently and after a dozen or more passes I haven't heard it...


-I downloaded that LatencyMonitor tool. This is the conclusion it provided, me running the tool while having only Reaper open and playing this song:

"Your system seems to be having difficulty handling real-time audio and other tasks. You may experience drop outs, clicks or pops due to buffer underruns. One or more DPC routines that belong to a driver running in your system appear to be executing for too long. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates."

These are the DPC routines and stats LatencyMonitor tagged:

"Highest DPC routine execution time (µs): 1169.696241
Driver with highest DPC routine execution time: storport.sys - Microsoft Storage Port Driver, Microsoft Corporation

Highest reported total DPC routine time (%): 0.367161
Driver with highest DPC total execution time: ctoss2k.sys - Creative OS Services Driver (WDM), Creative Technology Ltd."


I know there are no updates for my BIOS. I'll look into that 'CPU throttling setting' thing...


Here's a link to a post that questions the validity of the 'storport.sys' weakness, don't fully understand it but thought I'd post for reference, if I get a chance to look into it deeper. It basically seems to be saying the app itself is what's causing the high DPC execution time:
https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...e2&#post669746

Last edited by eq1; 10-12-2020 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 10-13-2020, 04:04 PM   #5
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OK, maybe I'm back to Dragonfly Hall reverb...

I worked all day yesterday with this mix and never heard the crackle. I was thinking, 'OK, that reduction of the media buffer from 1200ms to 1000ms must've done it - Why? I don't know.'

So to confirm today I switched back to 1200 - and the crackle came back. I switched back to 1000 - and the crackle... was still there. Huh? I did this a number of times and even with media buffer set to 1000ms I hear the crackle. Maybe it's slightly less, or doesn't do it every time, but sometimes it's still there.


So, I noticed what seems like some strange things with CPU usage. When I'm playing this mix, or was, for the first time through for the day and probably several more times, CPU usage was only about 3%, maybe occasionally bumping up to 4, 5%. I had taskmanager open and was keeping an eye on the various processes running, with 'CPU' sorted descending, so whatever's using the most CPU stays on top, and it was always Reaper (not running any other major programs). Then, I noticed that when I stopped playing the mix, CPU jumped up to about 8-12% and stayed there. Why would CPU usage be much higher when not even playing anything?

And then, I minimized Reaper - and CPU was still high.

And then, I went back to the project and found that it was Dragonfly reverb - I disabled it and CPU usage fell to nothing. Re-enabled it and it went up to about 9% (CPU in the FX window says about 7%)... What's odd is that I have another instance of it on another track, and disabling and re-enabling that doesn't have the same impact...

On the offensive track, I have the "High multiplier" for Dragonfly set to 1.2X - when I dropped that to 0.2X, the minimum, CPU usage dropped to near nothing. So I'm thinking that this effect and the high multiplier must be doing some intensive calculation in the background in order to be sucking-up ~8% of CPU - Does that sound plausible/right?? Or maybe there's something going haywire - like a recursive-feedback-loop-kind of calculation that doesn't make sense so the effect just keeps churning and burning? Is that possible? **

The corollary to all this is that maybe this weirdness is messing with Reaper processing/sound processing and it's at least related to why I'm getting the crackle? I don't know, I don't get it - the CPU usage isn't consistently high, it's not always high ~10%, and the crackle is still there when it's low.

For example, I just flipped back to the project, started playing a few bars before a spot where there's most often a crackle, Dragonfly enabled. CPU usage for DF alone was only about 1% - but I hear the crackle. Replay again, hear the crackle. I disable DF, play again - no crackle. And again, no crackle. Re-enable DF - and the crackle comes back...


Well, I know this is a long-winded, pain-in-the-ass kind of thing to read and think about. But if anyone has ideas as to what's going on here, I'd sure appreciate input...


** I experiment more with this: DF is churning at around 10% CPU, nothing playing, and the drop from 10% CPU to near nothing happens if I change any of the controls/settings, not just the 'High Mult' one. So this behavior doesn't seem related to the high multiplier per se. DF is doing something - and changing a control seems to jar it out of its 'catontonic recursive musing state'...

The above also seems to have something to do with Record/Arm: If I disable the track's Record/Arm, the high CPU at idle disappears, just like it does if I disable DF or touch one of its controls...

Last edited by eq1; 10-13-2020 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 12:47 PM   #6
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Never really figured out any answers to the questions posed above. I simply ended up removing Dragonfly reverb from that track - and I haven't heard the crackle since, over a couple solid days of repeated usage.

Since I don't get the crackle in another track that's still running an instance of DF, I guess it might be some interaction among record monitoring, the M1 VST on the offensive track, plus Dragonfly.
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Old 10-17-2020, 12:27 AM   #7
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Developer is an active member on here - ask him for suggestions as to why
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Old 12-07-2020, 05:03 PM   #8
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I'm late to this party, but please try Dragonfly Reverb 3.2.3 and let me know if you still experience the crackle of noise. This release fixes a long-standing bug that can happen if any of the Dragonfly plugins are loaded with a slider or dial set to zero, and can cause all manner of havoc.
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Old 12-08-2020, 04:00 PM   #9
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^ Thanks. I'll give that a try... I really appreciate your willingness to, well, 1) make the plug-in in the first place, 2) fix it, and 3) tell me about that fix.
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Old 12-09-2020, 06:44 AM   #10
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forgot to add that you were changing the wrong buffer when you switched from 1200 to 1000. You nned to be changing the Emu ASIO buffer. When I used an Emu 1212M it would function happily with most plugins down to 64buffer & on the rare occasions when I was stressing the system out till it started doing the Rice Crispies boogie, I raised the ASIO buffer size - most I ever had to use was only 250, which still gave an almost acceptable degree of latency & got rid of all the noises.. Mind you I used to set the ASIO buffer to 1024 when I was mixing, which gives you much better cpu performance.
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Old 12-09-2020, 03:57 PM   #11
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^ I'm not sure what your numerical values refer to. My E-MU buffer setting is in milliseconds. I had it at 5ms when I started out, and changed it to 10ms at some point but still heard the crackle...

Here's a screen shot of my audio device settings:

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Old 12-09-2020, 04:08 PM   #12
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Nothing much to add other than a tip concerning CPU and pops/clicks/crackles aka go into reaper's performance monitor, right-click and enable RT CPU (real-time CPU) because the audio thread can only live on one CPU core and if that core is maxing out, you'll get pops/clicks while CPU may look low in task manager; but the one core is maxed and that is the ceiling. RT CPU is reapers measure of the CPU amount for core that audio thread is running on.

Meaning, if you had 8 cores, if one of them is 100% then your total CPU in task manager is only going to display 12.5%. Conversely, you can switch over to the performance view in task manager and set it to display all logical cores and see if one of those is maxing out - however, it's more to the point to just check it in Reaper directly.
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Old 12-09-2020, 04:14 PM   #13
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^ OK, that looks handy! I've never used that before. I'll be sure to check it out next time I have issues. Thanks...

[edit] I just watched it a bit while playing the project that had the 'crackle' - none of the tracks used more than about 1.6% max, most of them were under 1%... There's only like 5 or 6 tracks (actually, only 3 active)...

Last edited by eq1; 12-09-2020 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 12-09-2020, 04:26 PM   #14
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^ OK, that looks handy! I've never used that before. I'll be sure to check it out next time I have issues. Thanks...

[edit] I just watched it a bit while playing the project that had the 'crackle' - none of the tracks used more than about 1.6% max, most of them were under 1%... There's only like 5 or 6 tracks (actually, only 3 active)...
Just to confirm we are on the same page, you care about the RT CPU, you have to right click reapers perf window to enable it, then see where it is. It might be the same difference if you are adding things manually but it's the true tale. Also, note the xruns since they can tell a similar story aka don't want any. Actually there are a few items under right-click that may be helpful concerning RT CPU such as "holding" the longest block etc. (so you don't miss it if it occurs).

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Old 12-09-2020, 04:34 PM   #15
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IF nothing concerning CPU pans out. I found this interesting. StorPort.sys is about as low as you can get in windows in the storage driver stack. 1.1 seconds is a heck of a long stall at that low-level if memory serves. So if nothing else pans out we might look deeper.

Right now I think it's a red herring unless you have tracks that reference audio, samples etc. Just MIDI with a VST shouldn't matter unless that VST needs a lot of disk access (like a sample library). So if CPU or the updated Dragon Fly doesn't fix the issue then you might run latencymon several times to see if storport keeps popping up in the list like that (so that we know it wasn't a random one-off). It's a DPC so chances are processing was blocked for that ~1 second.

"Highest DPC routine execution time (µs): 1169.696241
Driver with highest DPC routine execution time: storport.sys - Microsoft Storage Port Driver, Microsoft Corporation
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Old 12-09-2020, 04:39 PM   #16
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Just to confirm we are on the same page, you care about the RT CPU, you have to right click reapers perf window to enable it...
OK, we're more or less on the same page, now. I was looking at the CPU use values in the list, didn't have "RT CPU" checked. Now I've checked "RT CPU." That added a summary value at the top. I don't see that it changed the per track values, though. Is it supposed to?
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Old 12-09-2020, 04:45 PM   #17
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I had forgotten the Emu settings were in time values. Sounds silly, but did you try setting it to MORE than 10ms? It still sounds to me like there is more to the information from Latency monitor than JUST buffer issues.
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Old 12-09-2020, 04:45 PM   #18
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OK, we're more or less on the same page, now. I was looking at the CPU use values in the list, didn't have "RT CPU" checked. Now I've checked "RT CPU." That added a summary value at the top. I don't see that it changed the per track values, though. Is it supposed to?
For RT CPU, you only care if it hits 100% - it may or may not have a direct correlation to individual tracks because it is only concerned with the CPU core that the final audio stream (what you hear) is being processed on. I could be wrong but RT xruns and RT media xruns are probably CPU underruns and file/disk underruns respectively but been awhile since I dug in. Underrun is a fancy name for the the buffer involved couldn't keep up here and there - if that happens also pops/clicks.
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Old 12-09-2020, 04:59 PM   #19
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^ OK, thanks...

I'm pretty sure the crackle was due to Dragonfly. If you go back up to the Oct. 13 post, there I go into how I pretty narrowly honed-in on DF. Taken along with what Michael W. says about the plug-in and the update, they seem likely related.

I don't have the time at the moment to try to recreate the crackle and then try the new DF and see if it goes away, but maybe I'll get to that in the near future... Back in October I just removed DF from that track (I still have it in another one), and the crackle went away, haven't heard it since...
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Old 12-09-2020, 05:05 PM   #20
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^ OK, thanks...

I'm pretty sure the crackle was due to Dragonfly.
Totally plausible, I just wanted to be thorough in case you need it later.
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Old 12-10-2020, 01:52 AM   #21
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Be interested to see what dev`s reaction is.

I had a few issues on the version before last but mostly due to location and naming of the various sections of the Dragonfly stuff. Fixed for the last version & the current one.

I think Karbo is right - this all seems to be hinge-ing on buffer settings, which in turn almost certainly relate to cpu load on individual cores and could also indicate a possible hardware issue...

I`m still wondering about that latency monitor report.

Just for grins, try running it with reaper running a project for a few minutes & see what it comes up with.
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