Old 05-05-2016, 07:17 AM   #41
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Just thinking about Windows 10 makes me angry, so I am not going to post anymore about it.
Good.


You'll have to start using it sometime, though. You have plenty of time to do mental preparations for after 2020.
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Old 05-05-2016, 09:03 AM   #42
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Good.


You'll have to start using it sometime, though. You have plenty of time to do mental preparations for after 2020.
Don't worry about me, I will be 100% Linux by then.

I had a word with a friend of mine from Microsoft, he had a little look at your financial transactions... mmm, and he loved looking at your 'specialist' photo collection. He forwarded that to Frank over at the NSA
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Old 05-05-2016, 09:09 AM   #43
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Play nice, now....
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Old 05-05-2016, 09:10 AM   #44
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Don't worry about me, I will be 100% Linux by then.
But plugins you're using and depend on probably won't.
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Old 05-05-2016, 09:12 AM   #45
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Always run as fast as you can from emotional anecdotal evidence.
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Old 05-05-2016, 01:13 PM   #46
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I don't understand why people get so emotional about software.
And get angry about a missing start button!!??? I mean get really angry!!!???

I like Linux, but Jack (the guy that made this is a genius), but to reconfigure it at every boot, kill processes when shifting between normal computer use and DAW use is a brain draining.
If you have a musical inspiration, feeling of some kind... well it just went away.

After two years struggling with Linux and and then go with win 8,it just worked. That's emotional!
But I have no hard feeling for Linux, no way.
If an OS don't suite you,skip it. Don't build up a future stroke on a trifle.
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Old 05-05-2016, 03:40 PM   #47
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I don't understand why people get so emotional about software.
And get angry about a missing start button!!??? I mean get really angry!!!???
People don't get emotional "about software."

In actual use, software is about your information, your access to it, others access to it, and your practical ability to reliably and predictably control and manage that access.

It's really about software control: your control over the software, the software's control over you, and making an informed decision about that balance.

It also involves an ongoing relationship with a software provider on whose product you are or will become effectively dependent.

Plenty to get emotional about in that mix.

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After two years struggling with Linux and and then go with win 8,it just worked. That's emotional!
But I have no hard feeling for Linux, no way.
Hee! The only time I've ever dealt with Linux is when I installed it on a laptop I wanted to be able to sell "without an OS."
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Old 05-05-2016, 04:41 PM   #48
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People don't get emotional "about software."
Sorry, but that's the most stupid I've ever heard.
Have you ever read any comments on c++ vs Java, Win 8 no start button.
In the 90's and you would say that a Microsoft product was good, people would get furious.
Haven't you read anything about Win 8.0?
????????!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-05-2016, 04:43 PM   #49
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People don't get emotional "about software."
This forum and every other forum on the net is littered with emotional responses about software. That's a bigger problem than the software they are complaining about and an even bigger problem than the problems themselves. The problem that causes is hearsay which results in a large percentage of the complaints being downright incorrect which is even worse.
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Old 05-05-2016, 05:08 PM   #50
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Sorry, but that's the most stupid I've ever heard.
Have you ever read any comments on c++ vs Java, Win 8 no start button.
In the 90's and you would say that a Microsoft product was good, people would get furious.
Haven't you read anything about Win 8.0?
????????!!!!!!!!
But didn't you say above: "I don't understand why people get so emotional about software."

I was trying to explain why (IMV) that is so, and I actually said that there was "plenty to get emotional about."

Not sure what you're disagreeing with. But all things considered, I'll take "most stupid" as some kind of accomplishment.

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This forum and every other forum on the net is littered with emotional responses about software.
Indeed. And again my comment was an attempt to get at why that was.

I'm sure emotional when it comes to how my software works, and doesn't work, for the reasons I gave.
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Old 05-05-2016, 05:12 PM   #51
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Indeed. And again my comment was an attempt to get at why that was.
Gotcha, fair enough.
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Old 05-05-2016, 08:23 PM   #52
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Hee! The only time I've ever dealt with Linux is when I installed it on a laptop I wanted to be able to sell "without an OS."
I'm neck deep in Linux all day long. I'd never put it on a laptop except for very, very specific applications.

The old joke about Linux only being free if your time is worth nothing is still only funny 'cause its true.
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Old 05-05-2016, 10:26 PM   #53
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All components are here, I just need to get some time to put them together. Also I need the Thunderbolt and Firewire card to buy (FW for current audio interface, TB for the new one I will eventually get - RME UFX+).

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Thanks, ED. That all looks really nice. The case in particular. I hope the silence is deafening.

I won't further hijack this thread, but I hope you document the build here on the forum, including getting W10 to where you want it.
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Old 05-05-2016, 10:53 PM   #54
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If you value your right to have control over your own computer and data, Windows 10 is about the worst os choice available.
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Old 05-06-2016, 12:54 AM   #55
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...but only if you don`t take the time to learn about it and how to configure your OS the way you want it.
And if you are that worried about MS knowing your browsing habits, stay offline.
Hard to call home when mommy takes your phone away.

Sorry, I promised myself I wouldn`t comment further, but I am a great believer in balance in all things.
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Old 05-06-2016, 04:45 AM   #56
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I've been refraining from mentioning a few thoughts for a long time on many of these "How dare they, Microsoft" threads.....

Nobody forces you to buy a computer with a Microsoft OS on it Yes, it is one of the "standard" OS's, and yes, it could be inconvenient to not use one and for example, go all linux. But it IS doable.
It's like the car you drive, or the brand of milk you buy. If you don't like brand "X", buy brand "Y". if none of the brands suits you, don't drive or drink milk...you can walk/take a bus or train, and drink water/juice/whatever. You are the consumer, don't buy something if you don't like it.
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Old 05-06-2016, 05:59 AM   #57
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...but only if you don`t take the time to learn about it and how to configure your OS the way you want it.
Should it be a requirement for users of an os (or any tech product) to take subversive action in response to lack of business ethics in the company who makes the os that they use? Should it be a requirement for users to install third-party anti-spyware software to stop the os from performing undesired actions? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you are installing anti-spyware to work against functionality of the os (that has no off switch), that the os is the spyware.

I'm not surprised today to see another big tech company pushing users along the path of choosing between ethical standards and whiz-bang. Ethics has just about completely eroded with big tech companies, big companies in general, governments, and in the merge of the tech world and governments. What is surprising though is that some users of tech products are not only fine with throwing out ethics, privacy, and control over their personal machines and data, but they also feel the need to recommend that others do the same, working directly against criticism of lack of business ethics....even describing it as a 'no brainer!'. Lack of business ethics gets it's wings from these users.
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Old 05-06-2016, 06:05 AM   #58
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I've been refraining from mentioning a few thoughts for a long time on many of these "How dare they, Microsoft" threads.....

Nobody forces you to buy a computer with a Microsoft OS on it Yes, it is one of the "standard" OS's, and yes, it could be inconvenient to not use one and for example, go all linux. But it IS doable.
It's like the car you drive, or the brand of milk you buy. If you don't like brand "X", buy brand "Y". if none of the brands suits you, don't drive or drink milk...you can walk/take a bus or train, and drink water/juice/whatever. You are the consumer, don't buy something if you don't like it.
Are you saying that critics of Windows 10 should refrain from expressing our opinions? Why do you think that there are so many critics of Windows 10? Is it because we feel like unnecessarily bagging on Microsoft, or is it because we want Microsoft to grow some ethics and make an os that doesn't implement spyware?
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Old 05-06-2016, 06:31 AM   #59
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BW - I for one have no objection to people saying what they like about MS.
Or Win10.
But it is wiser to approach something like this dispassionately and objectively, which was the point I was trying to make.

Nothing is ever going to keep everyone happy, so rather than railing and ranting about it, why not just shrug shoulders and move on?
I remember the wide-eyed Sonar evangelists insisting that I couldnt possibly be having thee issues I WAS having when I finally baled on Sonar 8.5.3 after many years happily working with Sonar. People got absurdly aggressive about it.
Why? Choice. I made mine.

Same with Win10. Wonder how many of the "Win7 or die" folks are ex-"XP or die" advocates?
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Old 05-06-2016, 06:46 AM   #60
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For a while there earlier in this thread I couldn't help wondering if people get emotional about software or just semantics
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Old 05-06-2016, 07:33 AM   #61
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Nothing is ever going to keep everyone happy, so rather than railing and ranting about it, why not just shrug shoulders and move on?
Because it doesn't work in remedying the problem of lack of ethics in the tech world. Look at where we are now with issues of ethics, privacy, and user control, and look at how we got here. When a majority of users of tech products don't consider ethics in their buying decisions, the results affect everyone. It is the same as in politics, when 'low information voters' dominate the polls under the influence of the marketing machines, everyone suffers.

Yes, at the moment we do have linux distros as an alternative to windows and osx on the desktop, but there have even been efforts in the linux world to herd users into compromising freedom for whiz-bang. The myth of 'vote with your wallet' is just that - a myth - when so many people fall prey to the power of marketing machines.

Take a look at the range of tech devices in use today, with many more on the horizon, and look at how many compromise user rights - cell phones, tablets, 'smart' tv's, 'smart' appliances, in-vehicle devices, even dolls for kids. The desktop computer is pretty much the last hold-out from relinquishing control and data to tech corporations, and it is pretty thin, with hardware that is becoming more invasive, and only after installing an alternative os and taking on the learning curve of using it after having been accustomed to another os.
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Old 05-06-2016, 07:40 AM   #62
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But didn't you say above: "I don't understand why people get so emotional about software."

I was trying to explain why (IMV) that is so, and I actually said that there was "plenty to get emotional about."
Sorry for getting too emotional, my bad

My experience is that the emotional part is often not about how the software works.
In the 90's early 00's it was Microsoft, not their software that get the emotions started.
The Win 8 start button issue is a different way of how it works, but does it stop things to work?
And the win 10 arrived, 'Now it is ok, they listened to the customers' what!!?? It is the same (good) shit!!??
People are too binary and get upset about small things. Every SW has it's flaws.
Just pick the one with most goodies and least flaws and get on rocking!!!
And sorry for my bad attitude earlier.
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Old 05-06-2016, 08:10 AM   #63
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Are you saying that critics of Windows 10 should refrain from expressing our opinions? Why do you think that there are so many critics of Windows 10? Is it because we feel like unnecessarily bagging on Microsoft, or is it because we want Microsoft to grow some ethics and make an os that doesn't implement spyware?
I would NEVER say or support the idea of not expressing one's self )Go Bernie!)
I am merely saying that if you don't like it, don't buy it or use it and use something else that you do like.
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Old 05-06-2016, 08:22 AM   #64
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You are the consumer, don't buy something if you don't like it.
I'm the customer. You be the consumer if you like to think of yourself in this way

Regarding operating systems: if a customer has, through the years, already acquired licenses for a wide variety of software that runs on the said OS family -- and from the point of view of that individual/organization, if the latest version of the chosen OS includes some disconcerting functionality -- of course it's okay to critique the situation. The whole "you're a consumer, vote with your wallet" mindset doesn't invalidate the need for that sort of dialogue.
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Old 05-06-2016, 08:27 AM   #65
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I would NEVER say or support the idea of not expressing one's self )Go Bernie!)
I am merely saying that if you don't like it, don't buy it or use it and use something else that you do like.
That is what those of us who disagree with Microsoft's current business practices are doing - not buying Window 10. And when someone asks a question such as, 'Windows 7 or 10', we tell them what we think of Windows 10. While I'm sure that there are plenty of folks 'not buying it' and moving on, some of us realize that, that isn't a solution to the problem. You only have to survey the landscape of current technology to see that 'not buying it' alone isn't effective against the marketing machines convincing the majority to throw away their rights and our rights along with it.
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Old 05-06-2016, 08:30 AM   #66
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Because it doesn't work in remedying the problem of lack of ethics in the tech world. Look at where we are now with issues of ethics, privacy, and user control, and look at how we got here. When a majority of users of tech products don't consider ethics in their buying decisions, the results affect everyone. It is the same as in politics, when 'low information voters' dominate the polls under the influence of the marketing machines, everyone suffers.

Yes, at the moment we do have linux distros as an alternative to windows and osx on the desktop, but there have even been efforts in the linux world to herd users into compromising freedom for whiz-bang. The myth of 'vote with your wallet' is just that - a myth - when so many people fall prey to the power of marketing machines.

Take a look at the range of tech devices in use today, with many more on the horizon, and look at how many compromise user rights - cell phones, tablets, 'smart' tv's, 'smart' appliances, in-vehicle devices, even dolls for kids. The desktop computer is pretty much the last hold-out from relinquishing control and data to tech corporations, and it is pretty thin, with hardware that is becoming more invasive, and only after installing an alternative os and taking on the learning curve of using it after having been accustomed to another os.
You are petting the sweaty stuff. NONE OF THIS SHIT IS COMPULSORY, you just think it is because the marketing types have you brainwashed into thinking that way.
We all lived perfectly well without any of the hi-tech stuff and still can.
You are choosing to see this as the last stand of humanity against the ravening evil hordes of Corporate Greed.
In one way or another this stuff ha always been there, just that it is now a little more obvious with the dissemination of information being what it is today.
Just that the media were better controlled back in the day and we were none the wiser.
You never really had any more control over things back in the day than you have now.
Live with it or move to a desert island and become an off-grid wooden spoon-whittler
To quote Plusnet....
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Old 05-06-2016, 08:33 AM   #67
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You only have to survey the landscape of current technology to see that 'not buying it' alone isn't effective against the marketing machines convincing the majority to throw away their rights and our rights along with it.
Exactly. The whole "if you don't like, just shut up and don't buy it, ok?" thing isn't constructive in the long run. There is an actual need for critical dialogue in order to have a solid foundation for well designed and ethical development, in pretty much everything.
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Old 05-06-2016, 09:38 AM   #68
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.

Just a point of Reference:

I just bought (this week) a brand new Dell 17" LapTop with Win 7 Pro from Costco. I bought a slighlty more expensive model (the Win 10 version was on sale), just to be able to get Win 7 and not be forced to buy Win 10.

I am happy with Win 7 (the version in my Laptop supports all the new hardware including USB 3) and the activation code is burned into the ROM so I never need to activate (and never will). As much as I can, I will do all the anti-beacon anti-spyware things to it to increase my privacy and security.

All my other systems (Six of them) are Win 7 and I am happy with them.

.
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Old 05-06-2016, 09:43 AM   #69
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Exactly. The whole "if you don't like, just shut up and don't buy it, ok?" thing isn't constructive in the long run.
There is nothing more constructive in the long run; companies don't want your dialog as much as they want your usage of the product. When the problem really is what people claim (often there is some truth with lots of misinformation attached) then not using it is the most powerful vote you can possibly have. If the majority however doesn't feel the same as you then I suppose it's fine to try to convince them but you first need to throw out and stop talking about that misinformation that isn't accurate because accuracy is everything. IOW if one wants to be ignored, keep fluffing it with the misinformation mixed in because those you are trying to convince are going to check and subsequently stop listening.
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Old 05-06-2016, 09:54 AM   #70
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There is nothing more constructive in the long run; companies don't want your dialog as much as they want your usage of the product.
If "not buying it" was the whole definition of good constructive conduct in this context, when any product or service is unethical or otherwise problematic, it would promote the view that anything being bought by the majority is automatically good. However, as you say yourself:

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If the majority however doesn't feel that way then I suppose it's fine to try to convince them but you first need to throw out and stop talking about that misinformation that isn't accurate because accuracy is everything.
I agree.
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:00 AM   #71
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If "not buying it" was the whole definition of good constructive conduct in this context, when any product or service is unethical or otherwise problematic, it would promote the view that anything being bought by the majority is automatically good. However, as you say yourself:

I surely don't mind it being discussed but I've debugged/debunked enough of these claims (at a very low level) to the point I realized that the vast majority of the discussions are for the emotional rise everyone gets out of it (apple, ms whoever); it may be human nature but the details are always skewed terribly. I got so tired of it, I simply stopped doing it because there is more of a desire to talk the talk than walk the walk. No one is ever truly willing to sacrifice fud for fact, that part of the discussion, which is really what you are promoting and I agree with, doesn't exist.
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:10 AM   #72
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No one is ever truly willing to sacrifice fud for fact, that part of the discussion, which is really what you are promoting and I agree with, doesn't exist.
Exactly. Yep, I'm not talking about claims made of Windows 10, but instead the major shortcomings of the principle "either buy it or shut up and don't buy it", especially when used as an argument in cases where people are voicing their genuine concerns over something. On the whole, that principle is a short-sighted way to steer cultural/technological development in any field. No matter who buys what, the dialogue is always important.
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:10 AM   #73
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Exactly. Yep, I'm not talking about claims made of Windows 10, but instead the major shortcomings of the principle "either buy it or shut up and don't buy it", especially when used as an argument in cases where people are voicing their genuine concerns over something. On the whole, that principle is a short-sighted way to steer cultural/technological development in any field. No matter who buys what, the dialogue is always important.
Fair enough.
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Old 05-06-2016, 01:10 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
There is nothing more constructive in the long run; companies don't want your dialog as much as they want your usage of the product. When the problem really is what people claim (often there is some truth with lots of misinformation attached) then not using it is the most powerful vote you can possibly have. If the majority however doesn't feel the same as you then I suppose it's fine to try to convince them but you first need to throw out and stop talking about that misinformation that isn't accurate because accuracy is everything. IOW if one wants to be ignored, keep fluffing it with the misinformation mixed in because those you are trying to convince are going to check and subsequently stop listening.
What we know is - due to information which Edward Snowden put forth - Microsoft along with other big tech companies participate(s) in the Prism program of sharing customer private data and communications with the NSA.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...tion-user-data
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...iants-nsa-data

That alone puts Microsoft and other big tech companies in the hot seat on issues of trust. But instead of trying to reverse this negative image, which could have been done in numerous ways, such as open-sourcing some privacy critical components, better privacy features, open and constructive discussion with customers on issues of privacy, Microsoft went in the complete opposite direction.

They ran a tech preview which was a pretty monsterous data collection program, even implementing a keylogger, as only one example of their not-giving-a-shit about privacy stance.
http://www.geek.com/microsoft/micros...ogger-1606160/

They implemented a privacy policy which gives them free reign over users data. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/

They agressively began pushing users toward upgrading to Windows 10, where many users have unexpectedly seen their machines downloading Windows 10 files and upgrading to Windows 10 without their permission.
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/...-10-downloads/
http://www.businessinsider.com/windo...te-2016-3?op=1

They implemented 'telemetry' data collection against the wishes of users without an effective off switch, some of which has been reported to be in a non-human-readable format.
http://arstechnica.com/information-t...-to-microsoft/

They made os updates non-optional.
http://www.howtogeek.com/219166/you-...ndows-10-home/

Now, which of these claims is misinformation? That's easy. It's all true. We could argue over the finer points of what is to be considered spyware/virus-like behavior, but that is neither here nor there. The real point here is that Microsoft has made many people uncomfortable using their latest os, and instead of giving users some assurance that they aren't doing anything nefarious - after they have done something nefarious (sharing private data and communications with the NSA) - they went further with instilling doubt and fear in their users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I surely don't mind it being discussed but I've debugged/debunked enough of these claims (at a very low level) to the point I realized that the vast majority of the discussions are for the emotional rise everyone gets out of it (apple, ms whoever); it may be human nature but the details are always skewed terribly. I got so tired of it, I simply stopped doing it because there is more of a desire to talk the talk than walk the walk. No one is ever truly willing to sacrifice fud for fact, that part of the discussion, which is really what you are promoting and I agree with, doesn't exist.
I would be glad to read about any analysis you have performed and to see any data that you have gathered, but it has been quite a few months now since you first told us about doing so, without providing any real details. I could just as well tell you that I have performed some analysis that show nefarious activity, without sharing anything of what I did or any data that I collected, and I wouldn't expect you to take that as being good enough.

Where I stand with Windows 10 is...I don't trust big tech companies with my personal data, for numerous reasons, one of which is at the top of this post. And after the Snowden leaks and questionable business practices of Microsoft since, I have even less reason to trust them. It's in their privacy policy. It's in their practices. It's in their attitude toward customers, of being agressive and controlling. If that is 'tin-foil hat', well roll me off another layer of heavy-duty and cook a porkchop on my head.
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Last edited by brainwreck; 05-06-2016 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 05-07-2016, 11:44 AM   #75
The Telenator
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Don't EVER have Windows OS running when you are online. Don't run it when you have an active net connection to your PC either. PULL the stinking plug!

Use Linux. Make it as a separate boot on your machine and use that.

Here's some more, very basic stuff just scratching the surface:

http://lifehacker.com/5938980/how-se...-the-checklist

After that, there is still more you can do. Don't want Windows or anybody knowing your online habits? Use TOR.
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