Old 07-05-2011, 11:38 PM   #41
XITE-1/4LIVE
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I saw this when inserting measures of 9/8 into an arrangement in 6/8.
Time signature seemed like the right tool to use.
I could easily insert it and voila.
Click would have it's upbeat where it was needed.
Then I went back in and wanted the Chorus to be 110 instead of 102 so I changed the tempo markers, and then I ended up with MIDI items followed by blank gaps.
Being a newbie I thought it was my lameness.
I am so glad others are seeing this.

I need to do realistic ritards and accelarandos so until this is fixed, there's good old reliable hardware.
I suppose Reaper was meant to be a looper and then changed its mind once ot really took off 'eh..?
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:40 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XITE-1/4LIVE View Post
I suppose Reaper was meant to be a looper and then changed its mind once ot really took off 'eh..?
i don't know what you got against looping, but this is precisely what keeps me from using reaper as a full on arrangement tool. i think of them more in terms of patterns and i make them all myself, but not being able to reliably mess with tempo has cost me a lot of time trying to fix pattern items that inexplicably get messed up when i do anything too tempo intensive.

definitely don't think it was designed for that. it's certainly not ideal for it in some ways.
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:11 PM   #43
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Just for comparison, I checked how this is handled in Cubase.

When you have a Midi track set to 'linear' there (similar to Reaper's timebase = time) and then insert tempo changes the Midi item itself does also stretch as in Reaper BUT (and I think that's the point in this thread) the contained Midi notes stay in absolut time position AND length (unlike Reaper) and I'd consider this the correct behaviour.
So I also think this can be classified as bug (if I understood the whole thing what's this thread about correctly that is).

Here's a licecap:

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...baselinear.gif

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Old 08-07-2011, 01:17 AM   #44
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I've experienced a lot of weirdness myself regarding Reaper, midi, tempo and time-signatures. Usually I just try to get it right, doing it another way.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:17 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Just for comparison, I checked how this is handled in Cubase.

When you have a Midi track set to 'linear' there (similar to Reaper's timebase = time) and then insert tempo changes the Midi item itself does also stretch as in Reaper BUT (and I think that's the point in this thread) the contained Midi notes stay in absolut time position AND length (unlike Reaper) and I'd consider this the correct behaviour.
So I also think this can be classified as bug (if I understood the whole thing what's this thread about correctly that is).

Here's a licecap:

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/...baselinear.gif
Yes U understand. In Logic its called Lock region to SMPTE time..regions are what logic calls items^^

Look if I have an arrangement with both audio and midi ..AND it wasnt recorded to click...and everything is in sync..I then select all items.. or change the projects timebase to Time, and then try and match Reapers grid to the song, by use of tempo changes...the LAST thing ANY user would want to hear is some of the tracks playing out of sync!!

Another example is when spotting MIDI triggered sound fx to a video u want hem to stay locked to a particular time even if later in the music u need to change the tempo.

U can do this in Reaper only by going into Media Items property and then to Properties and select Ignore tempo, enter ur tempo and then do it again for EVERY MIDI ITEM...If u have 100 midi items...10 on each track times 10 tracks....well u can see the predicament no?

Finaly If ur lucky and u only have 1 midi item to do it to, u set it to ignore project tempo and all that ....and then u split that item..u lose ur notes..I think that is due to the newly created item not automaticly have its properties set to Ignore Project Tempo. Phew!!!
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:51 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XITE-1/4LIVE View Post
Time signature seemed like the right tool to use.
I could easily insert it and voila.

then I ended up with MIDI items followed by blank gaps.
Being a newbie I thought it was my lameness.
I'm not a newbie and this is happening to me, so I'm double lame.

It has to do with setting the timebase in your project settings.

My question/problem though, is:

1) why am I having to change this now with v4, when I haven't had to before?

2) what are the implications of the 3 settings of "timebase"?

Sort of annoying because suddenly this morning I've spent an hour or more futzing about with trying to get a tempo marker to change the tempo on a section without the gaps showing up. I admit I have not properly analyzed the "problem", but since it's just now appearing I presume it's a default behavior that has been changed in V4?

I haven't had to ponder my "timebase project settings" before, now I feel like I need to go study some thread somewhere instead of making music?

/ aggravatingly confused
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:24 PM   #47
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Hi chip. There is as usual a number of related issues being discussed. One is problems of recording audio and MIDI concurrently without a click, and how to resolve the grid (map tempo) in such a way that MIDI items are editable (like quantizing). jnif gives a great explanation.

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Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Also, it means that if you record for example a 95 bpm midi song with no click at default project bpm = 120, then those recorded midi events are still internally stored "relative to 120 bpm tempo". Probably all notes are "out of grid" and you can't use quantize operations in any musical way.

To get the project grid to follow your recording you need to do the tempo mapping as already described in this thread (set midi item time base to time, set midi "ignore project tempo" in item source properties, change project tempo map to match midi notes). However, this does not really make the MIDI item editable. For example quantizing the note lengths to grid does not work as expected and there can be unexpected problems if item is splitted.

To make the original midi item editable you have to temporarily disable all FX and VSTi on the track and then "Apply track FX to items as new take (MIDI output)". This operation rewrites the MIDI events to a new take so that the events are internally stored in relation to the modified tempo map. To the user this new take looks like an exact copy of the original. The new take will be completely editable and the "ignore project tempo" is automatically disabled in the new take. This can be used as a workaround in current Reaper version. It can be quite confusing to make these operations if you don't know what is happening under the hood. It should not be required to understand the internal implementation details when doing this kind of tempo/timing edits.
The other major, related topic is that the 'time' mode for MIDI items is meaningless, and so is identified by poofox as a bug.

It is this problem which is giving you the gaps, I think, if you are changing tempos on a project with audio and MIDI Items.
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:00 AM   #48
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Tried to nail some time-base bugs here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=85297
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Old 08-07-2012, 05:44 PM   #49
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Still a major problem, this. Is it not fixable? The timeline has been overhauled, does that change anything with respect to this?
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:06 AM   #50
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is this a lost cause? midi people and audio people shouldn't mix? that seems racist.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:28 PM   #51
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This should have to be a top priority task for Cockos

manually setting the ignore tempo and use xxx tempo instead for each item is wrong... and it doesn't work if you have tempo changes within the item.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:42 AM   #52
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I am also having lot of weird behaviour concerning the time-base behaviour when inserting signature or tempo changes.
Will this be adressed in a future version?
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:04 AM   #53
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hopefully. but it's anybody's guess. development seems pretty slow lately. best thing to do is try to figure out exactly what's going wrong because if you can reproduce it and explain it, it will be much more likely to get fixed. also if you understand it you might be able to macro your way around it. the devs are pretty good about fixing bugs. but these are some wiggly problems that crop up when you're not looking. make sure you vote on the link in the op. might help.
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Old 07-21-2013, 03:06 AM   #54
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Right now there is no way of linking midi to time with the current tempo of the project. This is very important for any sequencer and I think this is one of the biggest missing features in Reaper.

You can link a midi item to time to a fixed tempo, going into the properties of the item and set ignore tempo and use xxx bpm. But this is not a solution when having variable tempo in the project.

It should be per track, not per item, and just automatically ignore tempo if timebase is set to Time, and use master tempo, and not a fixed tempo.
So having the tempo track in consideration for calculations it should recalculate the position of all midi notes and midi events positions each time you do a small tempo change to maintain the Time of the notes. The calculation should be fast and shouldn't affect realtime performance.
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Old 10-27-2014, 10:57 AM   #55
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I've encountered with this problem so many times that it deserves a BUMP.

Maybe it should be a feature request instead of a bug report? how is the situation of midi time based tracks? Are devs aware of this?
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Old 10-27-2014, 12:20 PM   #56
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i believe they are aware, but dont think they regard it as a bug. there is apparently some architectural reason it's being ignored.

personally cant see why items cant all just behave the same... should be a top priority, but somehow it only bothers a few of us. discussion has been low on this for years.

i still have cases where changing tempo messes up midi in other parts of the project. i usually have to copy and paste items from old versions to fix it. i find it unpredictable in most cases.
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Old 12-26-2014, 04:36 PM   #57
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BUMP for this one as well. Another case just came up right now. Can't understand how this isn't a top priority.

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Old 12-26-2014, 05:36 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gembez View Post
Can't understand how this isn't a top priority.
Me either.
However with the latest SWS extension the pain has been greatly reduced with the functions to ignore tempo preserving time positions.
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:37 PM   #59
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I gotta push this some more now that Breeder has informed me that the "ignore project tempo" actions aren't meant to work for pooled MIDI items! Now I'm back to square one as my MIDI items are almost always pooled.

The devs have also stated that they don't think there are nearly enough users who want time-based MIDI items to warrant any changes here.

MIDI and Audio should respond identically to timebase changes. I find it exceedingly hard to believe that there are users who would expect otherwise. I don't really care what it takes, it's just not acceptable to me.

I've spent a truly ridiculous amount of time dealing with the problems that arise from this. I imagine if the devs had to deal with that just one time they'd immediately change their tune...
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Old 06-04-2015, 11:24 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
The devs have also stated that they don't think there are nearly enough users who want time-based MIDI items to warrant any changes here.
Users that don't want time-based MIDI never actually worked on postproduction
or complex freestyle midi recordings that need to be remapped to another tempo map.
Not to mention they can always use musical-timebase which currently has exactly the
same behavior as the flawed time-base for midi.

It's a nobrainer and a huge bug, I couldn't care less for any technical reasons,
from an audio editor perspective this is an important feature, which is properly
implemented in other DAWs. Cockos seems to not understand.

e
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Old 06-05-2015, 12:33 AM   #61
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Thanks for understanding, e.
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Old 10-14-2015, 02:31 PM   #62
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Lost an entire morning yesterday attempting to add a few tempo altered bars wo messing up the MIDI. Thats happened several times before but I wrongly thought it was prolly me not knowing the options well enough... its a major issue imo
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Old 10-14-2015, 04:59 PM   #63
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MAJOR issue. Literally have spend dozens of hours sorting out the problems that this has caused. Granted I'm always pushing Reaper to the limits, but according to the Reaper motto, I shouldn't be running into such limitations, right?
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Old 10-14-2015, 06:36 PM   #64
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NO worries guys, I'm sure the devs will fix it before they roll out the notation editor feature....



ummmm........
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Old 08-28-2016, 03:15 PM   #65
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The proposed solution (by the devs themselves) is to set the MIDI source properties to ignore project tempo:

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Yes, that's correct, the MIDI timebase fix in this build is really just a bugfix.

As is stated in the timebase help text, MIDI items will always use timebase=beats (position+length) regardless of the project or track timebase. The bug that was fixed is that MIDI items used to change position, but not length, when using timebase=time.

I understand that some users would like the ability to make time-based MIDI items, but the most common expected use case (by far) is something like, having some MIDI tracks in a time-based project and not expecting all of your MIDI to get mangled when you edit the project tempo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
And they can, by opening the MIDI source properties and setting it to constant-BPM -- after doing this, the MIDI item should behave just like an audio item.
Unfortunately, (and in addition to being laborious and non-obvious) this sets the BPM and time signature to constant values for the entire item, which may not be appropriate if the original MIDI had a varying tempo:

For example, if I get a MIDI file with lots of tracks and lots of tempo changes but with no alignment of the notes with measures or time signatures, how do I make a proper tempo map of such a file?

Or, if I have a MIDI item with 'hits' that are carefully aligned with audio items in a region with varying tempo, how do I move all items together to another region of the song that has a different tempo?

Given that the code exists to lock MIDI events to some constant BPM and time signature, it surely can't be too difficult to lock the MIDI to whatever (relative) time position they have when the item's timebase gets changed to "Time"?

EDIT: Ah, SWS to the rescue! As discussed in the thread A Golden Bandaid for Reaper's Achilles' Heel (MIDI Timebase) (and in Tempo mapping and manipulation with SWS), if Timebase=Time is combined with the SWS action SWS/BR: Enable "Ignore project tempo" for selected MIDI items and preserve time position of events (use tempo at item's start), the result is a proper Timebase=Time for the item. And the SWS action can be applied to multiple item simultaneously.

Last edited by juliansader; 08-28-2016 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 03-09-2017, 09:40 AM   #66
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2017. 6 years has passed since the OP. I still have problems with this inside reaper. Not that many people asking for it? LMAO

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Old 08-27-2017, 10:22 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okarowarrior View Post
2017. 6 years has passed since the OP. I still have problems with this inside reaper. Not that many people asking for it? LMAO
Any word on an update for this?
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Old 08-27-2017, 11:22 PM   #68
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See: SWS/BR: Enable "Ignore project tempo" for selected MIDI items preserving time position of MIDI events (use tempo at item's start)

if you're not aware of it.
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