Old 05-03-2016, 01:46 PM   #1
lxm
Human being with feelings
 
lxm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,629
Default Windows 7 or 10?

Hey Ya'll.

Im going to be doing a new build install. Wondering what I should use... I had a good experience with Win 7 but its def getting old and am worried about support. I saw that Tycho had a very similar setup to mine and had a bunch of issues with Win 10. Artefacts in the audio etc. This is my biggest nightmare which is why I went for such a beefy machine. He went back to W7 and said it was night and day. How are your experiences with both? I trust opinions around here a great deal

5960x
GIG UD3R x99
32 G RAM
750TI Graphics card

Lynx Aurora 16 Thunderbolt.

Last edited by lxm; 05-03-2016 at 01:58 PM.
lxm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 01:51 PM   #2
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,355
Default

W10 I'd say. Or at least W8.1.

I'm going with W10 on my new build (i7-6700K! )
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 01:54 PM   #3
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,947
Default

A bit pointless at this stage in the game trying to do a new install of Win7.

At the least 8.1, but if you already have 7, a w10 upgrade is still free for a while....
__________________
Brexit Schmexit. Lets have a violent revolution instead. Bagsy the first go with a nuke! (Here, Moggy Moggy...)
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 01:55 PM   #4
hamish
Human being with feelings
 
hamish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Reflection Free Zone
Posts: 3,026
Default

Have you considered linux? Maybe you have too many expensive plugins to do that.

I am still using win 7, and hopefully by the time I have to change hardware I can run REAPER native on a linux machine. All the other apps I use have linux versions.

So, no I can't help with your question, I just like talking
hamish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 01:56 PM   #5
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,299
Default

W10 is rock solid. No problems with it at all, and I'm a Mac guy for the most part.
jerome_oneil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 02:00 PM   #6
lxm
Human being with feelings
 
lxm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,629
Default

Feelin the W10 vibe. I guess I can try it and see if I have similar issues.

I do have MANY(prob too many) expensive plugs that I bought. SoundToys, U-HE, Slate blah blah.

Tried the hackintosh route. Too many issues.
lxm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 02:42 PM   #7
Curtis
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 708
Default

Windows 10; I hate it
Its full of bloatware.
Curtis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 02:54 PM   #8
slipstick
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: UK, near Europe
Posts: 876
Default

It took me while to get rid of most of the extraneous stuff that Win10 insists on loading your machine down with but once I cleared that out it's been as good as gold.

I don't like that you can't easily control when it decides to update itself...but switching the wifi off sorts that out for important sessions.

Steve
slipstick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 02:59 PM   #9
noise_construct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,566
Default

W10 is the best windows to date.

(which ain't much but anyway)
noise_construct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 03:31 PM   #10
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 12,602
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slipstick View Post
It took me while to get rid of most of the extraneous stuff that Win10 insists on loading your machine down with but once I cleared that out it's been as good as gold.

I don't like that you can't easily control when it decides to update itself...but switching the wifi off sorts that out for important sessions.

Steve
Hi Steve, which Win-10 do you have, "Home" or "Professional".

My wife has "Win-10 Home" and she gets updates just about anytime and sometimes it kind of interferes with what she's doing.

There might be a way to stop that but I don't know what it is. I understand with "Win-10 Professional" you have more control.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums -|- Elk Video Productions -|- Tod's Music
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 03:39 PM   #11
trevlyns
Human being with feelings
 
trevlyns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 1,660
Default

Two words...

No Brainer

Win 10!
__________________
Freelance Audio Producer

Website
trevlyns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 03:47 PM   #12
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,355
Default

Oh, yeah, if you decide to go with W10, this is a must: https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/

You'll have to run it after every update (hence, go with Pro, not Home edition, if you can), though.
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 03:59 PM   #13
Softsynth
Human being with feelings
 
Softsynth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,531
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Oh, yeah, if you decide to go with W10, this is a must: https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/

You'll have to run it after every update (hence, go with Pro, not Home edition, if you can), though.
Hi EvilDragon,
I use that. I've checked, none of the Win10 Home updates have messed with anti beacon 1.5 so far. All protection remains in place and updates work fine with it too.
I've got full protection in place and most of the optional blocks too.
Softsynth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 04:04 PM   #14
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,355
Default

That's cool with Home edition, then. With Pro, if you set the updates into slower track ("Defer updates" option), it MIGHT change SOME of those settings, since it's a much larger update batch (some people mentioned this). Or, if one is a part of Insider program, then after every new build you'd need to run the anti-beacon, since it's basically a fresh install every time.
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 04:12 PM   #15
Softsynth
Human being with feelings
 
Softsynth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,531
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
That's cool with Home edition, then. With Pro, if you set the updates into slower track ("Defer updates" option), it MIGHT change SOME of those settings, since it's a much larger update batch (some people mentioned this). Or, if one is a part of Insider program, then after every new build you'd need to run the anti-beacon, since it's basically a fresh install every time.
See, it does pay to use Windows "Nanny State Edition" sometimes!

I would also recommend going Pro, if starting from scratch.
Softsynth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 08:31 PM   #16
The Telenator
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oud West, NL
Posts: 2,335
Default

I'm curious to know if this constant updating business in Win 10 will ever simmer down. What I mean is, I wasn't really getting much in Windows 7 after the first few. Then it was, what, one security update and maybe some other rather minor thing perhaps 2 or 3 times in an entire year.

I mean, when if ever will Win 10 be 'complete enough' or 'happy enough' to just run as an operating system and just basically bugger off! with all this rubbish coming down the pipe?!

And in the same mind, how often (if anyone can know?) is Microsoft uploading / taking your user data to go off and do whatever nasty business it does with it? Weekly? Monthly? Daily?! I'm even more interested in this. Do you know?
The Telenator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 08:59 PM   #17
noise_construct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,566
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
I'm curious to know if this constant updating business in Win 10 will ever simmer down. What I mean is, I wasn't really getting much in Windows 7 after the first few. Then it was, what, one security update and maybe some other rather minor thing perhaps 2 or 3 times in an entire year.

I mean, when if ever will Win 10 be 'complete enough' or 'happy enough' to just run as an operating system and just basically bugger off! with all this rubbish coming down the pipe?!

And in the same mind, how often (if anyone can know?) is Microsoft uploading / taking your user data to go off and do whatever nasty business it does with it? Weekly? Monthly? Daily?! I'm even more interested in this. Do you know?
Mine updates when I close the PC, it doesn't interrupt anything of bother me in any way.

When will REAPER be complete enough or happy enough to just run as a DAW and just basically bugger off with all this rubbish coming down the pipe?
noise_construct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 09:13 PM   #18
richie43
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 8,555
Default

Most of the "telemetry" stuff can be disabled. And if you are on a wireless router, you are 1 or 2 clicks away from completely disabling the auto-updates (which I did). The paranoia is silly, 10 has been the best DAW OS I have ever used. YMMV etc etc, but that's been my experience.
__________________
http://soundyaudio.com/ The Sounds of the Hear and Now
richie43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 10:04 PM   #19
The Telenator
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oud West, NL
Posts: 2,335
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by noise_construct View Post
Mine updates when I close the PC, it doesn't interrupt anything of bother me in any way.

When will REAPER be complete enough or happy enough to just run as a DAW and just basically bugger off with all this rubbish coming down the pipe?
Then you know nothing about the second question? When does it upload your personal data?

And Reaper is good to go in any version. There are still some users here who haven't updated to v5 yet. No requirement to download. Double DUH over this one. No, your remark was extra stupid -- I'm giving it 3 DUHs.
The Telenator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 10:11 PM   #20
noise_construct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,566
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
Then you know nothing about the second question? When does it upload your personal data?
It doesn't.


Quote:
And Reaper is good to go in any version. There are still some users here who haven't updated to v5 yet. No requirement to download. Double DUH over this one. No, your remark was extra stupid -- I'm giving it 3 DUHs.
Double-triple DUH, omg! Why not uninstall the latest version then and use v.1.0. Or Windows 95. You can also wrap your PC case with tinfoil.
noise_construct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2016, 11:28 PM   #21
Reason
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 726
Default

Just did a clean install of Win10 three weeks ago and have had zero issues with Reaper. Relevant hardware is an Emu 1212m PCI (Vista driver and app, install had no drama, easier than Win7), Pentium G4400, 16GB DDR4, 480GB SSD.

Had zero issues with Reaper on Win7, either, though. Getting the sound card to work was a multi day hassle, though.

One consideration that's pretty remote: Win7 Home Premium x64 limits your available RAM to 16GB. That's probably more than you need now, but I believe it's 128GB in Win10 Home.

My experience has been good.

Don't know much about the telemetry stuff, although it seems I should learn...
Reason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 03:29 AM   #22
Multibomber
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 386
Default

Ive been holding off on upgrading to Win10 just because I assumed that something horrible would go wrong and all my plugins would evaporate or my interface would grow legs and walk away or my drivers would turn to japanese script!! Has anyone had problems with their fancy plugins on Win10?
Multibomber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 06:59 AM   #23
bluzkat
Human being with feelings
 
bluzkat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,919
Default

As they say, if it ain't broke...

I'm staying on Windows 7 until the wheels fall off!



__________________
Peace...
bluzkat
bluzkat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 07:02 AM   #24
richie43
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 8,555
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multibomber View Post
Ive been holding off on upgrading to Win10 just because I assumed that something horrible would go wrong and all my plugins would evaporate or my interface would grow legs and walk away or my drivers would turn to japanese script!! Has anyone had problems with their fancy plugins on Win10?
Quite the contrary....all of my fancy plugins got even fancier somehow..like the GUI's suddenly wore tuxes and bow-ties.

__________________
http://soundyaudio.com/ The Sounds of the Hear and Now
richie43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 08:47 AM   #25
hermitcrab
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 351
Default

over on RME forum a guy was getting his drivers constantly messed up by updates apparently so i second the 10 pro option. I'm just getting started on 10 custom install. Hopefully will go ok. this will be the first windows audio machine that i am risking going online for plugin authorisations, kenny's videos etc…

any horror stories with system performance over a year or so with internet access on win 10 ? ( maybe a little early to tell ? )

The anti -virus thing is now all handled by windows apparently
hermitcrab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 08:48 AM   #26
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,355
Default

That guy probably just needed to disable Windows updating hardware drivers, that should stop messing with things not working after an update...

http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/21/how...indows-update/
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 08:57 AM   #27
hermitcrab
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
That guy probably just needed to disable Windows updating hardware drivers, that should stop messing with things not working after an update...

http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/21/how...indows-update/
Good to know thanks. I really shouldn't be advising anyone on windows anything…..been on mac last few years and could only be described as 'highly incompetent' on win xp before that. he he

coming back to pc as needed desktop performance in a laptop and liked pc before but am not exactly technically minded, so saved up for a preconfigured audio pc.

Has all been well with internet access on win 10 for you ?

Last edited by hermitcrab; 05-04-2016 at 09:22 AM.
hermitcrab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 09:35 AM   #28
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,355
Default

I'm still on W7 on my current machine and laptop. Will go to W10 on the new build, which is not yet put together...
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 10:01 AM   #29
msundh
Human being with feelings
 
msundh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,568
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish View Post
Have you considered linux?
I lost 2 years on that one. No way (for DAW that is).
For a new install, Win 10.
__________________
Win10 64bit, Core i7 16GB, Focurite 18i8, Schecter Telecaster, Fender Japan Squire Stratocaster, Yamaha AC3R
https://soundcloud.com/mikaelsundh
msundh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 11:22 AM   #30
mhuss
Human being with feelings
 
mhuss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: West of Philly
Posts: 304
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multibomber View Post
Ive been holding off on upgrading to Win10 just because I assumed that something horrible would go wrong and all my plugins would evaporate or my interface would grow legs and walk away or my drivers would turn to japanese script!! Has anyone had problems with their fancy plugins on Win10?
The only problem will be re-installing and re-authorizing all the DRM protected ones (talk about a serious time suck) - but that would happen even if you were moving to a new Win7 machine.
mhuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 05:36 PM   #31
The Telenator
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oud West, NL
Posts: 2,335
Default

Q: when does MS upload your user data?


Quote:
Originally Posted by noise_construct View Post
It doesn't.

.


Double-triple DUH, omg! Why not uninstall the latest version then and use v.1.0. Or Windows 95. You can also wrap your PC case with tinfoil.
You might want to go back and re-read the agreement you had to click when installing 10 or registering it if bought with new PC. They CERTAINLY do take, collect and do various things with your personal details and Win 10 usage. That's been totally covered in a few other threads here and dozens on the net

No one is talking about Win 95 (you were still in your nappies back then anyway), or Reaper v1.0 (although it did work).

You probably shouldn't post when you've been drinking.
The Telenator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 05:42 PM   #32
hamish
Human being with feelings
 
hamish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Reflection Free Zone
Posts: 3,026
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by msundh View Post
I lost 2 years on that one. No way (for DAW that is).
Last time I tried was 4 years ago now. Used Ardour and REAPER under wine. Only borderline usable, probably REAPER under wine was better. I expect to be running REAPER native Linux in a year or so.
hamish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 08:03 PM   #33
Resonant Serpent
Human being with feelings
 
Resonant Serpent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 158
Default

I would say Windows 10. I just did the upgrade from 7 to 10, and 10 is much snappier. I have an ilok, which has problems with Windows 10 when using Studio One or Cubase, but works perfectly with Reaper. In fact, when I couldn't get my Lexicon reverbs to load the fonts in the plugs because of the ilok debacle, loading them into Reaper made the fonts load. I have an older computer, and if anything, my performance increased going to 10 with exactly the same hardware.
__________________
"A deep chesty bawl echoes from rimrock to rimrock, rolls down the mountain, and fades into the far darkness of night. It is an outburst of wild defiant sorrow, and of contempt for all the adversities of the world." - Aldo Leopold
Resonant Serpent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2016, 02:39 AM   #34
panicaftermath
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
W10 I'd say. Or at least W8.1.

I'm going with W10 on my new build (i7-6700K! )
What motherboard will you be pairing that with, ED? Any other components you care to share?
panicaftermath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2016, 02:48 AM   #35
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,355
Default

All components are here, I just need to get some time to put them together. Also I need the Thunderbolt and Firewire card to buy (FW for current audio interface, TB for the new one I will eventually get - RME UFX+).

ASRock Z170 Extreme 4
32 GB Corsair Dominator LPX DDR4 (red ones)
Noctua NH-D15 cooler (massive bastard!)
Coolermaster Smart SE 520W PSU (my current one)
Fractal Design Define XL R2 case
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 SSD (256 GB) for boot
3x1 TB Samsung 850 EVO for data
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2016, 03:13 AM   #36
David Else
Human being with feelings
 
David Else's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Near London, UK
Posts: 577
Default

I would stick to Windows 7. I hated Windows 10, the look, the disorganization, the spyware, the forced updates. It's just a massive step in the wrong direction, and I don't want to support that.

I did not have any crashes, but my friend reported it was very unreliable for him. It did run smoothly enough, but i could not look at the ugly GUI for too long, never mind every working day!

If you have a modern machine you will probably need to modify the Windows 7 ISO to have USB3 drivers. Here is the tool:

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/dow...reator-Utility
__________________
----------> Fedora Linux Distribution = Computing Joy & Freedom <----------
Learn Digital Audio Home | 'Nebula Explained' Course Out Now! | YouTube Channel | Twitter
David Else is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2016, 03:18 AM   #37
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 23,355
Default

That's kinda subjective, I love the UI updates in W10, especially thinner borders than in W7 (in W7 you can't go below a certain size no matter what you do).


For modern hardware, W7 is going to stop receiving drivers and support in due time. Better make the switch. Also performance is improved across the board in W10.


As for spyware, the solution is posted several posts up... As for forced updates, only if you go with Home edition. Nobody forces you to go with Home edition.
EvilDragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2016, 04:08 AM   #38
snooks
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,636
Default

Yes, the GUI is much better and I wish that Microsoft hadn't listened to the moaners re the fullscreen start page. Thankfully you can turn it back on, but I'd love to see us progress further away from the photocopier icons of WinOSXuxiOSdroid on into the future, unhindered by luddites.

The upcoming RT/core isolation stuff in Win is exciting too. It's actually quite cool that Microsoft, who already have by far the best low-latency performance of any big OS, are dedicating time to this area.
snooks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2016, 04:21 AM   #39
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 18,947
Default

David - as you are apparently an educator, I find it odd that you are advocating sticking with what is already an obsolete OS, particularly since your students will presumably be using modern machines, which will come equipped with Win10 installed.

FWIW I never had much in the way of problems with win10, even when I was using the early beta releases, right up to and including the public betas and release candidates.
My two systems (one Win10 Home Premium, the other Win10 Pro) never give me any issues at all. But like ED I have the update controller/anti call-home software installed on both machines.
__________________
Brexit Schmexit. Lets have a violent revolution instead. Bagsy the first go with a nuke! (Here, Moggy Moggy...)
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2016, 07:07 AM   #40
David Else
Human being with feelings
 
David Else's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Near London, UK
Posts: 577
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
David - as you are apparently an educator, I find it odd that you are advocating sticking with what is already an obsolete OS, particularly since your students will presumably be using modern machines, which will come equipped with Win10 installed.

FWIW I never had much in the way of problems with win10, even when I was using the early beta releases, right up to and including the public betas and release candidates.
My two systems (one Win10 Home Premium, the other Win10 Pro) never give me any issues at all. But like ED I have the update controller/anti call-home software installed on both machines.
Windows 7 is not obsolete, it has support until January 14, 2020:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...ha=windows%207

I would not advise anyone to format their machine and install a different OS unless they were a computer expert. If a new machine comes with Windows 10, then that's just bad luck... for them personally, not really a problem for teaching.

I have used Windows 10 everyday for a month and come to the conclusion that I don't like it for the reasons I mentioned. I did everything I could to maintain privacy, and found the whole process of HAVING to do it pathetic. Having to seek out 3rd party software so your OS doesn't spy on you... that's OK?

The spyware can't be turned off:

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...-to-microsoft/

Basically whatever I say the Windows 10 fans will say it's tin foil bullshit. It really boils down to, after all the outrageous things that have happened around Windows 10, do you trust it?

Just let this article sink in, and read the comments to see what IT professionals in general think about Windows 10. Just thinking about Windows 10 makes me angry, so I am not going to post anymore about it.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03...x_vs_humanity/
__________________
----------> Fedora Linux Distribution = Computing Joy & Freedom <----------
Learn Digital Audio Home | 'Nebula Explained' Course Out Now! | YouTube Channel | Twitter
David Else is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.