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Old 04-04-2008, 02:08 PM   #81
norbury brook
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Ok I thought I'd consolidate this thread as its getting long.

In a nutshell,

All Native instrument VSTI's along with All Steinberg sample based VSTI's and a few choice others (z3TA and Spectrosonics Atmosphere)

When used on:

1: A dual processor machine(intel or AMD, note NOT AMD dual CORE!)
2: An intel core2 duo
3: An intel quad core

suffer from severe audio dropouts from graphical events when tracks are record enabled.


please,Please can we have this acknowledged Justin as its rather a large list of V Popular VSTI's and there doesn't seem to be a work around.

cheers


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Old 04-04-2008, 02:32 PM   #82
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While I have noticed this before, I just fired up a test session with NI Elektrik Piano (500Mb preset), a couple of other VSTi, and a PSP Vintage Warmer (and some other stuff) on the master bus. I record enabled an audio track and a midi track, and couldn't reproduce the audio drop outs.

System: 2.1Ghz Core 2 Duo on XPSP3, 2Gb RAM. Delta 44 sound card. Nvidia 8600GT gfx card. Using latest Reaper beta off LoL site. Reaper buffer settings:

Autodetect threads: On
Thread Pri: Highest, 4
Media buffer: 1200ms
Prebuf: 100%
Disable media buffering for tracks with open MIDI: On
Disable media buffering for selected: Off

Sync FX: On, 2 CPU
Ant. FX: On, 200ms
Allow on tracks without FX: Off
Allow on tracks with open MIDI: Off

Optimize for low latency hardware: On

ASIO Buffer Size: 256 samples.
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:04 PM   #83
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Thanks,I dont have Electric piano, do you have B4? thats a good one for testing, you only need one track, record a long chord then play it back leaving it record armed and open close a menu or window and hear the drop outs.


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Old 04-04-2008, 03:33 PM   #84
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i have the b4 express which is a preset-only version of the b4 - still works perfectly
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:05 PM   #85
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Thanks Dub3000,

I'm back in my London studio ATM and just fired up the core2 duo machine, at 256 sample latency it's certainly a lot better,but not 100% as I said before I never go above 128 for VSTI tracking.

If you can leave your VSTI track armed and open close menu's/window etc then I'm at a loss as to why its affecting a few of us and not others.As you can see i have 4 different machines,all with different hardware all experiencing exactly the same thing,audio glitching with GUI movement made worse when a track is record armed.

If someone can tell me how to attach an audio file I'll do it so you can hear what's happening.


cheers

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Old 04-04-2008, 11:05 PM   #86
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Hmm, any plug-ins I can test with? Buying plug-ins for this purpose isnt really an option...

-Justin
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Old 04-05-2008, 01:09 AM   #87
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http://www.native-instruments.com/in...d=demoversions

Kontakt perhaps, or one of the others?
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Old 04-05-2008, 02:04 AM   #88
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Thanks justin,

I would suggest B4, massive,FM8 or absynth and select a long pad for ease of use,record a long chord, leave armed then play it back with some GUI activity.Just running my mouse along the top menu row is like a child running with a stick along some railings :-)



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Old 04-05-2008, 02:32 AM   #89
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norbury brook,

Come to think of it - I used to get this problem with Cubase.

There'd be the infamous 'zipper' noises when zooming or scrolling around the screen, and cracks when opening menus and/or mouse-over different menu items.

I haven't installed Cubase on my latest build so can't compare but... it's on the same PC that doesn't replicate the issue you, and others, are seeing here.

The main 'obvious' change that I've made to this PC is replacing the RAM with all matched stuff, and a newer video driver package.

I just wonder, given your Cubendo background, did Steinberg ever fix the 'zipper noise' issue and if so, have you any idea what the cause was - as this info may help here?
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Old 04-05-2008, 03:06 AM   #90
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Hi Deric,

It's basically graphical activity disturbing the VSTI audio stream made worse when record armed.I have cubase 4 and Nuendo 4 on my main machine which is all i can test against, and they're smooth as silk at all times, as I mentioned on another thread I have a 90 track test project that i use to compare the two programs and Reaper still chokes on that with regard to zooming in and out and various GUI activity despite my attempts to find the best buffering/performance options.


Reaper is coming along leaps and bounds, and obviously the pro's out-way the cons at the moment, but there's something about the way the GUI interacts with the audio engine thats not as solid as Cubendo,this particular issue is just one example.I hope there's a solution for this and it's not something thats fundamental to the audio engine at its deepest level.I know cubase/nuendo have been re written a couple of times because of fundamental issues over their lifespan and,certainly with regard to nuendo, I've seen a lot of changes since I got on board with Version 1.0

Having a Dev like Justin makes the end user experience positive so you feel things get looked at and addressed, so I'm optimistic there will be a solution ;-)



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Old 04-05-2008, 04:00 AM   #91
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Hi norbury brook,

I'm not disputing any of that, I was simply trying to point out a fact that Cubase also has/had a problem that seems to have very similar symptoms - if not EXACTLY the same.

I was also trying to suggest that, as you clearly have a lot of exposure to Steinberg products, that you may have heard/read/etc what the cause was/is with (in my case) Cubase. This is a well-known and often-reported problem on the Cubase forums.

The only reason I posted was in the hope that, if you did have any recollection of the above Steinberg problem, you may be able to provide further info to assist Justin in locating, and therefore resolving, the cause of this problem.

I appreciate that you are saying that Cubase is working on your current machine(s) without this problem yet REAPER is exhibiting the issue. Conversely I am trying to tell you that I am not seeing this problem on my machine with REAPER - but had a very similar, if not exactly the same, issue with Cubase on this very machine. Quite the opposite experience for the both of us.

Anyway, I too am in London and if you think you'd get any benefit out of it PM me and we can compare stuff directly.

Or have a fight.
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Old 04-05-2008, 05:38 AM   #92
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Hi Deric,

I think through the vagaries of the written word you're taking my post the wrong way, i appreciate your input and was not under any circumstances dismissing your points:-)

You're right I've been on the steinberg ship a long time so thats my main comparison regarding DAW's, I had logic for a while as I was given it as a VIP user but couldn't get on with it and I've got pro tools here as well which I never use.I don't remember any issues like this though through my steinberg history, the only graphical issues I seem to remember where similar to what I'm seeing in reaper as regard the zooming performance,and I think that was sorted out between Nuendo 2 to 3.

I too have every intent to help Justin (and in doing so every reaper user) in any way I can to get to the bottom of this,and would like to thank everyone who's contributed so far in narrowing this down.

I have been very lucky in my musical career to have been given lots of software and hardware from various manufacturers over the years so I feel now I'd like to give something back by testing and helping Reaper become as good as it can.


I don't want to fight with anybody least off all you Deric :-)



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Old 04-05-2008, 10:28 AM   #93
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ah, actually NI gave me a NFR license to their stuff so woohoo I can fully test... I'll check back in in a bit.

Just to confirm -- do you guys get dropouts with those plug-ins loaded, and say, you move another window in another app, not over the REAPER window? i.e. REAPER's on one monitor, and firefox on the other, moving firefox around makes reaper skip?

-Justin
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Old 04-05-2008, 10:32 AM   #94
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Justin,

On my system it's any window, not just Reaper (i.e., Firefox.)

I get even worse dropouts when running the Visualization window while an NI plug is loaded (and being played with record enabled) or while minimizing/maximizing ANY window while the NI synths are being played with record enabled.

-Clayton
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Old 04-05-2008, 11:09 AM   #95
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Grabbing any window causes dropouts on my machines, whether its Reaper or another app. I also get less regular dropouts without moving any windows or indeed any graphic activity. It seems to get worse (more occurences) over time and I can see the RAM usage increasing slightly. It probably increses by approxinately 20Mb over the first 5 minutes and then holds steady.

NB. All my machines are AMD64X2 dual core.
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Old 04-05-2008, 11:19 AM   #96
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Everyone,

Justin fixed it (at least for me): http://landoleet.org/reaper2149pre2-install.exe

-Clayton

EDIT: Just download the latest 2.2 release.

Last edited by sessionthree; 04-06-2008 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 04-06-2008, 04:06 PM   #97
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Great. I hope it works for me. Just installed V2.2

Thank you Justin.

*I*
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Old 04-06-2008, 08:31 PM   #98
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NI plugs seem to work far better now than they did.

I'm back to a reasonable latency with a certain project I've been attempting to record drums on with Battery. I've had no dropouts i the last hour of playing and recording/ overdubbing.

I noticed one strange thing though:

I'm sitting here looking at the project at the moment.
It's got 20 audio tracks and one folder track with Battery and multichannel routing on it. In fact it's the same project I posted earlier in this thread, even though I've made a few minor mods since then.

This is the weird thing.

with the track playing:

No tracks armed for recording and input monitoring I get around 5% RT CPU

Arm and enable all 20 audio tracks for input monitoring. RT CPU shows 26% on my system.

Arm the 1 VSTi channel for midi input and monitoring as well. It shoots up to 48%

Arm just the VSTi track and no other and the hit is around 40%

Does this sound right? It seems rather high to me.
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Last edited by inthepipeline; 04-06-2008 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 04-06-2008, 11:08 PM   #99
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Yeah, record arming tracks disables anticipative processing, which means higher RT CPU use.. that percentage is of one core, unless synchronous fx multiprocessing is on, then in theory it's the combined cpu time of the cores enabled for syncfx.

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Old 04-07-2008, 06:55 AM   #100
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Thank you for confirming this Justin.

*I*
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Old 04-07-2008, 07:45 AM   #101
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Just returned home after a couple of days away to find reaper 2.2 ,loaded up and............................................ :-D


Thanks Justin,great update with a fix for the issue :-)


great work



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Old 04-08-2008, 07:38 AM   #102
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Well done to norbury brook, sessionthree, inthepipline, and the others here, for all of the testing and subsequent explanations that you've all provided in order to help get this fixed!

Great stuff!

All of these things add up to help make REAPER better for all of us.

Cheers from me!
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:51 PM   #103
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Hi norbury brook,

Apologies to raise this thread again but I'd missed your earlier post...

I was just having a joke - as we seem to be in need of a mediator, at times, in our understanding of each others angle!

I guess what I find difficult with many of your posts is that you frequently tend to write something like "Cubendo behaves much better in this regard".

Whilst this may be true, for your system at least, it's a bit like saying "y'know, you're a lot fatter and uglier than my last girlfriend"

I think if you have a problem, and you 'know' it's not your machine because your other hosts work on it, then that's all you should need to say. I'm sure people will believe you.

I own licenses for nearly all the major DAW packages available (because I am stupid) on the PC platform - yet I feel it's enough to say "Hey, this doesn't work - whilst other hosts do - here's a suggested repro".

Your approach, to date, could be viewed by some as constant advertising on Steinberg's behalf... IMO of course.

Anyway, I'm with you on trying to help with inputting any useful information we can to try and help those that write this app. to make it better for me and everyone else that uses (or will use) it.

No worries.
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Old 04-11-2008, 04:31 AM   #104
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Cube -er- what?
Oh remind me not of that dark and distant memory
The box on the shelf which I can't throw away
Nor bear to open
Containing the key
That opened a door...
Well occasionally, when the Syncosoft program decided to work.
And when famously once, the damn thing blew up as I inserted it and nearly took my thumb with it!

No, but seriously, thanks to all. I have never found such a co-operative, helpful attitude on any other forum.
Oh whoops...Did I just do that comparison thing?
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Old 07-03-2008, 11:13 PM   #105
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So has this issue been solved for you all? I'm getting this problem while trying to record midi with my vsti's.
Examples, RMIV, Zebra 2, AAs collection.
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Old 07-07-2008, 04:28 AM   #106
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Default minor crack

Encountered little cracks/dropouts during playback when tooltips pop up.
The good thing: it happens quite seldom. The bad thing: sometimes such a graphic-event-crackle seems to evocate a whole cascade of our well known MIDI/VSTi-glitches (enormous peaks over +75).
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