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Old 11-29-2010, 06:02 AM   #1
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Default V3.73 - All MIDI notes doesn't get recorded (FIXED)

I think I have eliminated all other possible reasons, the problem must be in Reaper. I have one midi device generating sound and another keyboard that I play on. When I play and record, all tones are heard on the sound generating device, but all notes just doesn't get recorded in Reaper. As they were heard when I played, it must be Reaper that is the trouble. Reaper shuffles all the data to the sound generating midi device while recording alright, but it fails to record all the notes. Most of them are recorded, but here and there, a note is missing.

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Last edited by Boray; 11-29-2010 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:10 AM   #2
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I tried two different midi input devices. Same result. One Yamaha V50 and one Ensoniq SQ1+.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:15 AM   #3
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Sometimes this problem is caused by devices that send overlapping note data (that is, a note-on message before the previous note-off message, for the same pitch and channel). E-drums in particular tend to do this. You could try opening the MIDI editor and making sure "Options/Automatically correct overlapping notes" is not checked.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:15 AM   #4
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Just so that I am clear:
-- all of the MIDI notes come into Reaper AND are routed out of Reaper to the sound-generating device,
-- there is no MIDI route from the MIDI generator to the sound-generator, other than through Reaper,
-- but not all of the MIDI notes are recorded into a MIDI clip by Reaper.

Is there anything common to (or special about) the points where the MIDI notes are dropped?
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:20 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Sometimes this problem is caused by devices that send overlapping note data (that is, a note-on message before the previous note-off message, for the same pitch and channel). E-drums in particular tend to do this. You could try opening the MIDI editor and making sure "Options/Automatically correct overlapping notes" is not checked.
@schwa, can you describe how Reaper deals with overlapping notes if that option is checked or not checked?
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
for the same pitch and channel).
They have not been of the same pitch, but I will try that anyway.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:26 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Just so that I am clear:
-- all of the MIDI notes come into Reaper AND are routed out of Reaper to the sound-generating device,
-- there is no MIDI route from the MIDI generator to the sound-generator, other than through Reaper,
-- but not all of the MIDI notes are recorded into a MIDI clip by Reaper.
Correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Is there anything common to (or special about) the points where the MIDI notes are dropped?
No I don't think so. I noticed it first when playing a solo melody with no chords, just one note after the other all the way...
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:30 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Sometimes this problem is caused by devices that send overlapping note data (that is, a note-on message before the previous note-off message, for the same pitch and channel). E-drums in particular tend to do this. You could try opening the MIDI editor and making sure "Options/Automatically correct overlapping notes" is not checked.
Tried it now. Didn't help.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:44 AM   #9
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This might be a lot to ask, but are you set up in any way that you could record the MIDI in parallel, in both REAPER and some other application, for comparison?
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:07 AM   #10
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Is it possible to open the same midi input in two programs at the same time then? If that's the case then maybe I could try to install some other program to try with.
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:35 AM   #11
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The test would require a bit of work, which is why I said it might be a lot to ask. You'd either need to use a virtual MIDI cable app like MIDI-yoke to duplicate the physical MIDI input to two separate virtual ports, or it might work to record directly in one app and within that app, route the MIDI to another output, which gets recorded by the other app.
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:30 AM   #12
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... or run Reaper as a ReWire slave?
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:19 PM   #13
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Ok, here it is...

I installed LoopBe1 internal Midi Port and Renoise. I then routed the midi accordingly:

synth->Reaper->Renoise and got the following:




There you can see a missing tone.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:28 PM   #14
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Hey, the missing tones seems to get stuck at the end:
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:59 PM   #15
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That's just completely weird! Can you attach the REAPER .rpp project file, and .mid file that got recorded in Renoise, so we can look at the internals? (Or email to support at cockos.)


PS. thank you very much for persevering with this problem! Whatever the issue is, we are far more likely to figure it out thanks to your extra efforts.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:15 PM   #16
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Renoice doesn't record midi the same way as normal midi sequencers, so maybe it would be better to try with another program. Could you recommend a freeware sequencer for that?
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:24 PM   #17
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I finally found a program (called Anvil) where I could figure out how to record and save a mid file...

Here:
http://boray.wontek.net/test.zip

The routing here was:
Synth->Reaper->Anvil->Synth
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
The test would require a bit of work, which is why I said it might be a lot to ask.
Well, I think I have installed 9 different programs and done one system restore, so yes!
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:06 PM   #19
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Thanks for posting the info!

The REAPER project has one MIDI item in it. The two Anvil*.mid files appear to be identical, but what's odd is that the timing is completely different between the .mid files and the MIDI item in the REAPER project.

The MIDI in REAPER appears to have been stretched by a factor of about 1.5, which might be a clue to the source of the problem. The play rate in the project is set to 1.0, but is there any chance it was not 1.0 when you recorded the MIDI? Could there be a sample rate miscommunication between REAPER and your audio device?
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:51 AM   #20
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The two Anvil files was because I saved one as "Save as" (which turned out to be a mid file), I then also exported a mid file.

It was recorded at 1.0 speed just as the project is. And it seems to run at 1.0 speed as well. (Have no idea about Anvil though).

When changing from ASIO to WaveOut or DirectX, the problem gets worse. With WDM Kernal streaming it was about same as ASIO. With "Dummy Audio", the problem still is there! About as often as for ASIO. As it's still there with Dummy Audio, I guess it can't be because of anything with the sound card...
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:14 AM   #21
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It looks to me that it must be a timing/buffering/ issue within Reaper (but your trials with other audio devices could be indicative)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boray View Post
I then routed the midi accordingly:
synth->Reaper->Renoise
What I cannot understand is that if Reaper does not record all the MIDI notes how are they being passed on to Renoise?
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:22 AM   #22
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The tones gets recorded, but they get stuck at the end of the clip and doesn't seem to have a note-off. So they seem to get the wrong time altogether.
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:45 AM   #23
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Ah ha, do you mean the short E note at the end of the Clip? I did not see that before.

If so, then the note was passed on to Renoise correctly, but its position and length was miscalculated in Reaper.

If you change your audio interface buffer size does the number of misplaced notes change?
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:30 AM   #24
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Here's something-else a bit odd:
-- I loaded anvil.mid into the test project and timestretched the clips to the same (longer) length.
-- looking at the misplaced note in the Test project, at that position in anvil.mid are various MIDI messages, as can be seen below:

[img]http://img834.**************/img834/8372/r373dsmisplacedmidi01.png[/img]

-- and the misplaced note is about 2 bars adrift.

------------------
Edit: I think that those messages at the end of the clip could be an artefact of my diagnosis, if so, forget about them)
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Last edited by DarkStar; 11-30-2010 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:35 AM   #25
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With an ASIO buffer of 2048 samples it seems to work! But the audio works with a much smaller buffer. I usually have it at 256 or 512 samples.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:14 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
-- and the misplaced note is about 2 bars adrift.
That depends on when I stop recording. It's always placed at the very end of the recorded clip. Also try to make the clip longer by dragging in the right end of the midi clip; the tone then goes on forever.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:37 AM   #27
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Sorry to keep repeating myself, but this is a truly bizarre problem. It must be something specific to your setup, since it's not reproducible elsewhere, but I have no idea what, yet.

You said that you have this problem with 2 different input devices, but are they both going through the MIDI Mate? Do you have any way to bypass the MIDI Mate?

Random thought, in Preferences/Audio/MIDI devices, is "restrict MIDI hardware output to one thread" checked or unchecked?
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:46 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Random thought, in Preferences/Audio/MIDI devices, is "restrict MIDI hardware output to one thread" checked or unchecked?
Tried to uncheck it now. Didn't make any difference.

I only have the MidiMate interface.
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Old 11-30-2010, 07:58 AM   #29
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I tried the other synth now again, and it's exactly the same problem with that one.

Here is another clue for you: When not connecting tones but playing staccato, this does NOT happen, or at least much more seldom. So when playing drums on the keyboard, notes are generally NOT missing. But as soon as I play a connecting melody, the problem shows right away.
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:02 AM   #30
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[Overlapping post]
^^^^
You're right there is no Note off for that misplaced note. here is a binary view of the exported file (I deleted most of the notes, leaving just two and the misplaced note):

[img]http://img24.**************/img24/5629/r373dsmisplacedmidi02.png[/img]

I loaded anvil.mid into energyXT v1 and looked at the Event List - before and after the notes there are many Pitch Bend and MIDI CC messages - all for channel 01 (there are 16 messages of each type) and with the same timestamp. This can be seen in these screenshots:

[IMG]http://img208.**************/img208/5845/r373dsmisplacedmidianvi.th.png[/IMG]
Big pic:
http://img208.**************/img208/5...edmidianvi.png

Uploaded with **************
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:46 AM   #31
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Here is a second test:
http://boray.wontek.net/test2.zip

This time with the other Synth (Ensoniq) and this routing:

synth->Anvil->Reaper->Synth
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:06 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
there is no Note off for that misplaced note.
I assume you are looking at a .mid export of the REAPER MIDI item. Actually there is a note-off for that note ... "80 4D 00". It appears the MIDI device sends note-on with velocity zero as note-off (which is not uncommon), and my guess is that last "real" note-off is REAPER cleaning up what it saw as a hanging note-on.

None of this leaves us any closer to understanding the trouble, though.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:09 AM   #33
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Well, that test2 project rules out all those multiple control messages

So, after a few seconds, a note is corrupted in Reaper and gets misplaced.

I still can't work out why the clip from Anvil is shorter (faster) than the recording in Reaper (when you consider the notes).

Silly idea: what happens if you play a sequence of, e.g. C, D, E, C, D, E, that is 3 different notes?

----------------
If I load anvil.mid into Reaper and record the track output it is recorded correctly. (But that doesn't help much either.)
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:10 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I assume you are looking at a .mid export of the REAPER MIDI item. Actually there is a note-off for that note ... "80 4D 00". It appears the MIDI device sends note-on with velocity zero as note-off (which is not uncommon), and my guess is that last "real" note-off is REAPER cleaning up what it saw as a hanging note-on.

None of this leaves us any closer to understanding the trouble, though.
Yes that was a .mid Export. So there is a "real" note off
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:14 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Yes that was a .mid Export. So there is a "real" note off
DarkStar:

What program are you using to view the MIDI file in that screenshot?

[img]http://img24.**************/img24/5629/r373dsmisplacedmidi02.png[/img]

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Old 11-30-2010, 09:19 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boray View Post
The routing here was: Synth->Reaper->Anvil->Synth
-- result: Reaper recording was not correct, but the Anvil recording was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boray View Post
and this routing:
synth->Anvil->Reaper->Synth
-- result the Anvil recording was correct, but the Reaper recording was not.

It's a mystery. Especially the first case; if Reaper is passing on one set of data but recording another.

--------------
Clutching at straws department asks: What happens if you output the clip recorded in Reaper to Anvil and record it there?
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:23 AM   #37
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lowellben, that's XVI32, a freeware hex editor (very handy).

The difference in timing between REAPER and the properly recorded MIDI is the key to the problem. REAPER is receiving the MIDI notes and passing them on properly, but when it records the MIDI, some time base is simply wrong, so notes that are supposed to be recorded in one buffer block get put off until later (much later), and eventually a new note-on collides with the waiting note-on and notes get skipped.

These kinds of problems are tough when they can't be reproduced anywhere but on the user's computer, but I'll look through the code for any clues about what time base could be incorrect.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:24 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
lowellben, that's XVI32, a freeware hex editor (very handy).
Ah, thank you!

Do you think it will work on Win7 32bit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_hex_editors

(Sorry, for the brief OT here)
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:26 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowellben View Post
DarkStar:

What program are you using to view the MIDI file in that screenshot?

[img]http://img24.**************/img24/5629/r373dsmisplacedmidi02.png[/img]

Ben
It's called XVI32 from here:
http://www.chmaas.handshake.de/delph...vi32/xvi32.htm
-- well worth a donation,
-- it was recommended to me by asseca.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:28 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
It's called XVI32 from here:
http://www.chmaas.handshake.de/delph...vi32/xvi32.htm
-- well worth a donation,
-- it was recommended to me by asseca.
Nice! I saw that it hasn't been updated since 2003. Does mean Windows 7 can't (or shouldn't) run it?

Should I use another, perhaps? Just curious -

Thanks!

XVI32 v2.51 02003-08-02 August 2, 2003
(wiki link from my previous post)
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