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Old 06-02-2007, 06:39 AM   #1
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Default VSTi not initialised at project load (FIXED)

I have a project which has 6 VSTi plugins. When I first open the project, about half of them don;t seem to initialise themselves, by which I mean there is no output from them when I press play. Other VSTis are fine. To get each to work, I just need to pull them up in the FX chain, and they immediately spring to life.

Here is a list:

Kontakt - OK
NI B4 - OK
Broomstick Bass - doesn't initialize
Pianoteq - OK
EZ Drummer (2 instances) - neither initialize

Edit : Forgot to say I have seen this with the latest 1.862 and the 2 versions prior to that.

Anyone else seen this, or have a solution?

Regards,

Andrew


FIXED

Last edited by Dstruct; 06-07-2007 at 04:18 AM. Reason: Additional info
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Old 06-02-2007, 06:50 AM   #2
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Try enabling options - audio - playback - run FX when stopped.

Are you the journalist?
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Old 06-02-2007, 07:02 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Try enabling options - audio - playback - run FX when stopped.
Thanks for the suggestion, I have that on already.

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Are you the journalist?

No, I'm an IT consultant and wannabe rockstar
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Old 06-02-2007, 07:55 AM   #4
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I posted some helpful tips on using EZdrummer in REAPER here:

http://www.toontrack.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=36014


Cheers,

Billy Buck
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Old 06-02-2007, 08:03 AM   #5
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Thanks, that's useful!
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Old 06-02-2007, 12:56 PM   #6
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Thanks, that's useful!
Ok, I'm all setup now - I even created a Kontact 8 out template from scratch - here it is if anyone wants it. I also did a generic 8 midi in, 8 track out one too.

Thanks for the help!
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File Type: rtracktemplate Kontakt 8 channel.RTrackTemplate (11.9 KB, 114 views)
File Type: rtracktemplate Generic 8 channel.RTrackTemplate (7.2 KB, 104 views)
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Old 06-02-2007, 09:17 PM   #7
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I have this issue with Groove Agent 2.. no output until the first time I open the FX window on that track.

Maybe there's a missing initialization call that should be made to the VSTi on loading?
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Old 06-03-2007, 05:08 AM   #8
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I have this issue with Groove Agent 2.. no output until the first time I open the FX window on that track.

Maybe there's a missing initialization call that should be made to the VSTi on loading?
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking - never had this problem with the same plugins in Cubase.
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Old 06-03-2007, 05:18 AM   #9
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There are separate VST calls for "start the effect" and "open the window." I believe Reaper calls "open the window" only when you actually open the window, which is sensible, but I would guess these particular effects want that call in order to initialize themselves.
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Old 06-03-2007, 06:35 AM   #10
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Quote:
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There are separate VST calls for "start the effect" and "open the window." I believe Reaper calls "open the window" only when you actually open the window, which is sensible, but I would guess these particular effects want that call in order to initialize themselves.
Yes, its probably something in that area - I'll go back and check exactly how cubase behaves. Maybe it inits the effect then quickly opens and closes the window to start the VST? I'm pretty sure I can load a project with no open windows and still get sound from these VSTs.

It would be very simple to build a stub VST to check this out.

EDIT : Here's a thought - maybe a double initialization like that would explain Cubase's slower project loaing ...

EDIT2 : Just tried it in Cubase and even without windows open it does initialize the VSTs.

Last edited by Andrew Cockburn; 06-03-2007 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 06-03-2007, 06:51 AM   #11
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Here's maybe an easy way to figure this out, with Steinberg's otherwise pretty useless monitor tool. Save a Reaper & a Sonar project with this effect loaded on a track but the window closed. Then reopen each project and press "display" and see in what order things are listed.
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Old 06-03-2007, 07:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
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Here's maybe an easy way to figure this out, with Steinberg's otherwise pretty useless monitor tool. Save a Reaper & a Sonar project with this effect loaded on a track but the window closed. Then reopen each project and press "display" and see in what order things are listed.
Interesting - (I assume you meant Cubase/Nuendo not Sonar, as I don't have that!)

Looks like Nuendo does a whole lot more initialization, in particular there seem to be calls to load programs in there. In both cases I had to open the editor to save the info, so the last thing in both is an open editor which can be ignored.
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File Type: txt reaper.txt (1.4 KB, 104 views)
File Type: txt nuendo.txt (6.4 KB, 97 views)
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Old 06-03-2007, 07:19 AM   #13
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Cubase talking to the plugin sounds a little like a crazy old man muttering the same thing over & over, doesn't it?

The only thing that really jumps out (apart from possible subtle ordering things like maybe the plugin needs the program set after a resume call) is that Cubase calls startProcess which is a VST 2.3 extension meaning something weird like the host saying "I'm gonna tell you to start but just to check on something." If I had to bet, I'd bet your problem VSTis want this call to initialize something.
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Old 06-03-2007, 07:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
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Cubase talking to the plugin sounds a little like a crazy old man muttering the same thing over & over, doesn't it?

The only thing that really jumps out (apart from possible subtle ordering things like maybe the plugin needs the program set after a resume call) is that Cubase calls startProcess which is a VST 2.3 extension meaning something weird like the host saying "I'm gonna tell you to start but just to check on something." If I had to bet, I'd bet your problem VSTis want this call to initialize something.
Sounds about right - what would my next step be? Does Justin usually read these bug threads and investigate them, or do I need to do some more work to lock it down? At this stage the only other thing I can think of is checking with Toontracks support to confirm your hypothesis.

Thanks for helping with this BTW!
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Old 06-03-2007, 07:56 AM   #15
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If it's the right interpretation that the problem vstis want this call, and there is actually some critical mass of plugins that want it, then this would probably make it onto the Cockos todo list, but that's just a guess.

ButI don't think it's the case that the VST standard defines startProcess as "host must issue this when loading a plugin," so if our is the right interpretation, these plugins are doing something nonstandard, fwiw (and I admit it's not worth much since the immediate problem is simply that some plugins initialize properly in other hosts but not Reaper).

... adding, it's especially weird if these plugins want "call my startProcess when you load me but I'll just call it myself when you open my window."

Last edited by schwa; 06-03-2007 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 06-03-2007, 09:36 AM   #16
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If it's the right interpretation that the problem vstis want this call, and there is actually some critical mass of plugins that want it, then this would probably make it onto the Cockos todo list, but that's just a guess.

ButI don't think it's the case that the VST standard defines startProcess as "host must issue this when loading a plugin," so if our is the right interpretation, these plugins are doing something nonstandard, fwiw (and I admit it's not worth much since the immediate problem is simply that some plugins initialize properly in other hosts but not Reaper).

... adding, it's especially weird if these plugins want "call my startProcess when you load me but I'll just call it myself when you open my window."
Yeah, its one of those that falls in the middle, I know. I'll report it to the Broomstick Bass people as well - they have a forum with good developer interaction I think, and I might be able to confirm our theory. Watch this space!

Last edited by Andrew Cockburn; 06-03-2007 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 06-03-2007, 12:03 PM   #17
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I find this behavior quite irritating myself and it has been mentioned before, by myself and several others I'm sure, however nothing has been done to solve the situation more than mentioning the "workaround" of opening the GUI. This is one of the few things I really don't like about Reaper. It works in other hosts so what's the deal here?

Hopefully this will be a non-issue in Reaper 2...?[img]http://*************.net/confused-smiley-17432.gif[/img]
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Old 06-03-2007, 01:47 PM   #18
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here, try this version:

http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1862_vst.zip

let me know if that a) fixes your issues, and b) breaks anything else!

-Justin
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Old 06-03-2007, 02:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
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here, try this version:

http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1862_vst.zip

let me know if that a) fixes your issues, and b) breaks anything else!

-Justin
Hi Justin, wow, thanks for the fast response

Unfortunately that doesn't seem to have changed anything, I still get the same symptoms, but on the plus side, nothing broke that I am aware of!
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Old 06-03-2007, 02:09 PM   #20
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Hi Justin, wow, thanks for the fast response

Unfortunately that doesn't seem to have changed anything, I still get the same symptoms, but on the plus side, nothing broke that I am aware of!
hmm, that is unfortunate.. any chance we could get toontrack to take a look at why that is? Either they could fix it, or tell us why it is happening...

actually, lemme try one more build, one sec. ok http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1862_vst2.zip try this
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Old 06-03-2007, 02:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Justin View Post
hmm, that is unfortunate.. any chance we could get toontrack to take a look at why that is? Either they could fix it, or tell us why it is happening...

actually, lemme try one more build, one sec. ok http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1862_vst2.zip try this
I was going to try Bournemark as Broomstick Bass does it too - I am still trying to get my post through their Spam Filter though, might take a day or two as I need one of their admins to fix it, but yes, I'll definately ask the question if the next build doesn't help.
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Old 06-03-2007, 02:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
hmm, that is unfortunate.. any chance we could get toontrack to take a look at why that is? Either they could fix it, or tell us why it is happening...

actually, lemme try one more build, one sec. ok http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1862_vst2.zip try this
Sorry, no difference I'm afraid - I'll see what Bournemark have to say and post any response - thanks.
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Old 06-03-2007, 02:59 PM   #23
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Tried this build with Groove Agent 2 and no change sadly
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Old 06-03-2007, 03:44 PM   #24
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hmm suppose I could add an option to initialize/deinitialize the plug-in UI on load.. that wouldnt be ideal (and might break things for all we know) but could be useful..
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Old 06-03-2007, 03:48 PM   #25
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This may help - just tried Steinberg (them again!) Virtual Guitar Electric Edition.. same problem - you have to open the fx window for it to be active.

But this one gives more of a clue.. when you open the window it goes to "loading", which maybe means for these problematic plugs it's not just about passing audio, but maybe none of them actually load their data until the fx window is opened in REAPER.

Hope that's of use.
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Old 06-03-2007, 03:54 PM   #26
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try this: http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1862_vst3.zip <-- be sure to enable the new option in prefs/vst plug-ins at the bottom...
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:04 PM   #27
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Sadly that didn't do it for me

Looks like it's not about initializing the UI, maybe about loading (the samples)?

Lucky you enjoy a challenge, eh?
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:14 PM   #28
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Sadly that didn't do it for me

Looks like it's not about initializing the UI, maybe about loading (the samples)?

Lucky you enjoy a challenge, eh?

ugh... ;/ try http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1862_vst4.zip

and make sure that vst option is on, too!
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:23 PM   #29
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Quote:
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try this: http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1862_vst3.zip <-- be sure to enable the new option in prefs/vst plug-ins at the bottom...
No luck with Broomstick Bass or EZDrummer either.
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:24 PM   #30
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Initialize plug-in UIs on load is on..

still doesn't make either of mine active - but now seems to do a longer loading process when I open FX Window.

So it's a little different but either way - it's not waking them up until I open the window.

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Old 06-03-2007, 04:29 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Initialize plug-in UIs on load is on..

still doesn't make either of mine active - but now seems to do a longer loading process when I open FX Window.

So it's a little different but either way - it's not waking them up until I open the window.

Same with BB I see VSTs pop up now during loading, so its obviously doing more, but it doesn't seem to be enough to trigger BB or EZD. Interestingly, I didn't see either of those popup when I loaded my project.

Last edited by Andrew Cockburn; 06-03-2007 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:36 PM   #32
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Bummer that didn't work, but right on Justin for being game and giving it a try.

I think the livest remaining possibility is this: Cubase calls BeginLoadBank, to which the VST Monitor responds "no thanks" but perhaps the problem plugins respond to differently,

Apart from that, I don't see any single call that Cubase is making but Reaper isn't. Though it's possible some initialization that we can't see is happening before the VST Monitor message collection starts, or that these plugins want some very particular ordering of calls that Cubase is accomplishing just by issuing every call multiple times.
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:40 PM   #33
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ugh.. why cant these people just fix their goddamn plugs?
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:48 PM   #34
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Thanks for trying so hard Justin - I'll let you know what I hear back from Bournemark tomorrow.
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Old 06-03-2007, 06:12 PM   #35
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Just to summarize, then.. in the case of Virtual Guitar EE, you hear nothing until it is displayed on screen (including in generic UI mode).. and you see it loading when you first open its UI (if you open the chain at another plugin it still doesn't play until you switch to its view).

One workaround is to float the plugin I guess... the plugin then works from the moment you open the session.

All very bizarre - shame there's no way we can help you by testing what's going back & forth between different hosts and these specific plugs.

Even that VSTMonitor presumably only shows you what happens when you open the plugin UI rather than what happens when hidden from view at load time?


Very strange how Nuendo seemed to be making repeated calls + same bizarre things like that "LiveWithoutToolbar" one - there's one reference to that in the whole of GoogleLand (there'll be two the bot finds this one!).
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Old 06-03-2007, 06:28 PM   #36
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The weird, repetitive Cubase -> plugin talk is bizarre but I think it isn't so odd ... I remember some back & forth on the BFD forums because PT 7.1 broke BFD by adding 3 additional gratuitous cycles of the host saying to the plugin "start! no, stop! ok, start! wait, stop!" while opening a project. I think these repeat calls from the host are a symptom of lots of programmers working on old, crufty code over a long period of time.

I still suspect that BeginLoadBank call, but Justin may already have tried that.
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Old 06-03-2007, 07:55 PM   #37
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http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=8...rummer&#879172

CW had this problem for a while.
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:29 AM   #38
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Cool, thanks for the info - looks like an additional call to fxIdle() may fix things up then - hopefully Justin will have time for an attempt at this

In any case I posted to the BB forum this morning, lets see what they say.

Last edited by Andrew Cockburn; 06-04-2007 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:28 AM   #39
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thx, (err) xackley!!

everybody try this: http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1862_vst6.zip

-Justin

Last edited by Justin; 06-04-2007 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:35 AM   #40
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thx, schwa!

everybody try this: http://reaper.fm/files/reaper1862_vst6.zip

-Justin
Not good - I get an application crash - interestingly though it is happening in WizooVerb, not any of the suspect VSTis.

I'm going to create a new project without WizooVerb and see what happens ...
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