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Old 01-06-2016, 12:08 PM   #1
Rushmemyselecta
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Default Envelope Automation vs Midi CC Lanes

Hi all

First post, but have been reading here for a while and getting back into music (as a hobby) after a 10 year break. I have been reading posts here and the user guide extensively. Coming from Cubase VST32 5.1/SX1-3, and reviews of intentionally handicapped DAWs, I can say that Reaper is proving to be breath of fresh air. Yes, it has taken me some time to get up to speed and get it working the way I would like, but it’s been a whole lot of fun.

I work in the box (my few bits of hardware take up to much space), and am enjoying keeping it rather simple with regard to sound sources, mainly using Poise for drums and NI Massive for most other parts. I was hoping you all could clear up one (hopefully small) bit of confusion for me regarding automation and Midi CC automation:

Am I correct in thinking that as Reaper has rather comprehensive Automation Envelopes available for pretty much everything I would like to tweak in Massive, there is no real need to get involved in the use of Midi CC automation using controller lanes in the Midi Editor? Or am I missing something fundamental here and limiting my use of Massive? From the experiments I have undertaken, it appears the Envelope Automation clashes with Midi CC Controller Lanes if both have data in them. So its use one or the other.

Am I also correct in thinking that when I use my Akai MPK225 and assign a pot to change a variable on Massive, it is using Midi, but this is not written to any Midi Editor Controller Lane and is just a method of communicating to Reapers Envelope Automation.

Apologies if that was all a bit long-winded, thanks!

RMS
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Old 01-06-2016, 05:24 PM   #2
V'ger
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Hi and welcome here.

Not much to chose between MIDI and native automation and I'm still on the fence too.

Midi is nice in that it is contained in the item so when you copy or move an item to another track, it's all there, but then it's maybe nicer overview with the native, even if it does clutter up the track control panel a bit. (there are of course shortcuts to merge the lanes when not editing etc, but still)

It's also maybe nicer to edit the native with the points and different curves etc, but I never missed anything in the midi editing either as I find freehand or lines good enough for almost everything.

Maybe the biggest argument is that native automation will always work, whereas the plugin midi assignments might be lost further down the line.

Point is I use both and haven't really decided one for the other. Maybe I lean toward midi a bit.

About using the Akai to control plugins, you can choose whether to use midi or native, and either will be recorded as automation if properly set up. For midi, midi control messages must be enabled in Preferences - Audio - Midi Devices - double-click the device name in the list, and for native it's set by moving a knob on the plugin, and then in the FX window, hitting the Param button - Learn.
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:03 AM   #3
Rushmemyselecta
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V'ger

Thanks for taking the time to reply and the welcome, much appreciated.

The points you make concerning native vs midi are really interesting and ones I hadn't considered, especially the point about midi being contained within the item. The automation I was used way back when was basically midi cc and nothing else, but you point out some really interesting strengths for both, which has definitely made it all clearer in my head.

I seem to have come down on the side of native a bit more than midi as it seems a little bit more immediate and intuitive in relation to my workflow, but it's nice to know I can use both as I please in slightly different situations, without really missing out, more examples of Reapers wonderful flexibility!

Thanks also for the advice re the Akai, that makes sense and I had been playing with both.

Thanks again!
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:17 AM   #4
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One thing I remembered now why I use midi more, is that native automation writes a knob setting that lasts the whole project and more (a continuous line after whatever automation), and this locks the knobs and prevents tweaking in order to test out new presets or settings. Yes, there is a toggle to bypass all automation and thus cancel this out, but it's another thing on the scale. Together with dealing with latch, trim, read, touch, arm, unarm, etc that goes with native and not midi, I guess I find just midi a bit more user friendly overall.
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Old 02-09-2016, 02:13 PM   #5
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The OP asked the exact same question I was going to and the answer given here is pretty much what I understood it to be from reading the manual and looking at threads on this forum.

Just a few follow-up questions

1. MIDI CC is usually 7-bit (correct?) but some controllers (Behringer BCR 2000) supports high-res (10, 14-bits?). Does CC_automation support this?

2. Is there a way to cut the native automation track to be linked to track items only? Something like item-automation?
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Old 02-13-2016, 04:39 PM   #6
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Don't know about CC bit depth, but don't think it's possible to to connect item to automation like that at the moment.
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Old 02-13-2016, 08:39 PM   #7
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Thx anyway.
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:35 AM   #8
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Re automation in items.

Make a new track and create an empty item, insert ReaControlMidi as itemFX then route the tracks midi to the target track/device. I'm pretty sure that the pitch control slider is 14bit when not in raw mode, maybe someone can confirm this. You can then freely copy, paste items with automation, etc, etc..
Also it is possible to record envelope changes into the items using learn mode in the envelope window.
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Old 04-10-2018, 11:46 AM   #9
magwa101
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Default VST control using Midi CC or Automation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushmemyselecta View Post
Hi all

First post, but have been reading here for a while and getting back into music (as a hobby) after a 10 year break. I have been reading posts here and the user guide extensively. Coming from Cubase VST32 5.1/SX1-3, and reviews of intentionally handicapped DAWs, I can say that Reaper is proving to be breath of fresh air. Yes, it has taken me some time to get up to speed and get it working the way I would like, but it’s been a whole lot of fun.

I work in the box (my few bits of hardware take up to much space), and am enjoying keeping it rather simple with regard to sound sources, mainly using Poise for drums and NI Massive for most other parts. I was hoping you all could clear up one (hopefully small) bit of confusion for me regarding automation and Midi CC automation:

Am I correct in thinking that as Reaper has rather comprehensive Automation Envelopes available for pretty much everything I would like to tweak in Massive, there is no real need to get involved in the use of Midi CC automation using controller lanes in the Midi Editor? Or am I missing something fundamental here and limiting my use of Massive? From the experiments I have undertaken, it appears the Envelope Automation clashes with Midi CC Controller Lanes if both have data in them. So its use one or the other.

Am I also correct in thinking that when I use my Akai MPK225 and assign a pot to change a variable on Massive, it is using Midi, but this is not written to any Midi Editor Controller Lane and is just a method of communicating to Reapers Envelope Automation.

Apologies if that was all a bit long-winded, thanks!

RMS
I am going this for my own workflow vis-a-vis instruments, but I suspect it applies to all track parameters (FX and otherwise). I have come to the conclusion that it is better to use Automation to manipulate all track parameters. You can always map/unmap your external CC to the Automation parameter. This means that you have one path to your track parameters. Copy/paste/edit is all available as with midi CC. Automation appears to be more complete.

What were your conclusions?
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