XR-18 Multitrack Input Setup Help

[wilson schulbus]

OK fellow users, I need some guidance please. Who is successfully using the XR18 with Reaper to record live shows? I have a job in a couple weeks that I want to multi-track record to mix and edit at home later. I have Reaper downloaded on both the mobile laptop and my home PC so I'm ready to go. I need some 1st grade level walk through on what to do with the Reaper program once I have it USB connected to the XR. I think I get the XR side USB routing, (but a little fuzzy on using 17-18 for the FX sends though). But, I was hoping it would be more plug and play than I think its going to be. What do I have to do once I open up the Reaper program on the recording laptop? Obviously create and save a new 'project' for each recorded set but do I have to create 16 or 18 new tracks in Reaper every time? Or will the program recognize the recognize the input as the 18 channels and do that automatically? Once I have this sorted I can move on to the next couple questions. I have a long way to go and a short time to get there...

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

Who is successfully using the XR18 with Reaper to record live shows?

I do use an XR18 for recording with Reaper.

Works perfectly without any issues or needing any tricks. E.g. Recording 18 audio tracks and a Midi Track with just a single USB cable.

Regarding the Reaper setup, you can re-use a working project by saving it with another name and/or in another directory (this does not copy the recorded data: new audio files will be created in the new directory, by default), or (more "professional") creating a project template from it that holds all setting.

-Michael

[uncleswede]

I regularly record live multitrack via XR18 into Reaper using a core i5 laptop without issues so far. I did have a few clicks and pops at first with an old HP laptop but that was the laptop resources at fault - the newer laptop is fine.

I only record channels 1-16 (we use 17/18 for intermission music) and record DRY (which is the default for XR18 USB sends) to 48KHz/24bit FLAC files. You can change the tap points for the USB sends if you want wet recordings.

I have (or create in advance) XR18 scenes/snapshots for each band plus a Reaper project template and life is simple.

Adjust the XR18 channel gains to peak around -15dB (this is standard gain staging practice, not just for recording) and set your Reaper XR18 ASIO buffer to 2048 for 'safe' recording.

[wilson schulbus]

Originally Posted by mschnell

I do use an XR18 for recording with Reaper.

Works perfectly without any issues or needing any tricks. E.g. Recording 18 audio tracks and a Midi Track with just a single USB cable.

Regarding the Reaper setup, you can re-use a working project by saving it with another name and/or in another directory (this does not copy the recorded data: new audio files will be created in the new directory, by default), or (more "professional") creating a project template from it that holds all setting.

-Michael

So, if I am understanding correctly, I have to set up a 16 track template first. That means creating a new project and individually generating the 16 tracks? This will not happen automatically via the XR USB connection where the Reaper program recognizes it as a multitrack format input?

[wilson schulbus]

Originally Posted by uncleswede

I regularly record live multitrack via XR18 into Reaper using a core i5 laptop without issues so far. I did have a few clicks and pops at first with an old HP laptop but that was the laptop resources at fault - the newer laptop is fine.

I only record channels 1-16 (we use 17/18 for intermission music) and record DRY (which is the default for XR18 USB sends) to 48KHz/24bit FLAC files. You can change the tap points for the USB sends if you want wet recordings.

I have (or create in advance) XR18 scenes/snapshots for each band plus a Reaper project template and life is simple.

Adjust the XR18 channel gains to peak around -15dB (this is standard gain staging practice, not just for recording) and set your Reaper XR18 ASIO buffer to 2048 for 'safe' recording.

I won't be changing any of the routing defaults unless I am told I need to. Is the FLAC file and option in the Reaper or XR setup? Where does one find the ASIO buffer and do you leave it set that way all the time, recording or not?

Is there anything special you do with the recorded project files before moving them to another device? Do you do that with a USB drive? And, what's an estimated or average file size for say an hours set of recorded live music? I know that will change with the amount of input programming but I am just curious if I am looking at 1GB, 5GB, 10GB, more, etc. to insure I have sufficient hard drive space available on this older XP machine to record at least the full set. I can move that off to a secondary storage card between sets as needed to free up hard disk space for the next set.

[uncleswede]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

I won't be changing any of the routing defaults unless I am told I need to. Is the FLAC file and option in the Reaper or XR setup?

Set FLAC in Reaper Project Settings

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

Where does one find the ASIO buffer and do you leave it set that way all the time, recording or not?

Install the latest XR18 ASIO driver and set as your input choice in Reaper, Preferences, Audio, Device and then you can set the ASIO buffer size in the ASIO Configuration button on the same screen. I leave it at 2048 as I only record to the XR18, never playback from it (not quite true) as I copy recorded projects to my main studio PC which uses a low latency RME audio interface.

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

Is there anything special you do with the recorded project files before moving them to another device? Do you do that with a USB drive?

Before the gig, I create the Reaper project, specify and audio subfolder AND SAVE IT immediately. This ensures that the recorded audio files will be stored in the project folder. It also means that you can Save the project as many times as you like during the recording, without disturbing it. At the end, I copy the project folder to at least one, sometimes two, fast USB sticks then load them onto the studio drives later

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

And, what's an estimated or average file size for say an hours set of recorded live music? I know that will change with the amount of input programming but I am just curious if I am looking at 1GB, 5GB, 10GB, more, etc. to insure I have sufficient hard drive space available on this older XP machine to record at least the full set. I can move that off to a secondary storage card between sets as needed to free up hard disk space for the next set.

Recording all 16 channels at 48Khz/24bit FLAC for an hour is about 4GB, double that for WAV. The last project I did was 16 channels, 3 hours (12GB)

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

This will not happen automatically via the XR USB connection where the Reaper program recognizes it as a multitrack format input?

Nope. You need to add e.g. 16 tracks and connect each of them to an audio channel, and supposedly name them accordingly. Then save as a project template to easily reuse this configuration.

-Michael

[wilson schulbus]

This is exactly the type of thing I was looking for, thank you both for taking the time. I'll do some testing over the next few days and I am sure I'll have a few more questions from those efforts. Steep front-side learning curve for me.

[uncleswede]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

This is exactly the type of thing I was looking for, thank you both for taking the time. I'll do some testing over the next few days and I am sure I'll have a few more questions from those efforts. Steep front-side learning curve for me.

You're welcome

[wilson schulbus]

Originally Posted by uncleswede

Set FLAC in Reaper Project Settings

I meant to ask, why FLAC?

[uncleswede]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

I meant to ask, why FLAC?

Purely because it's a lossless format requiring half the storage of WAV. TBH, with disk space as fast and cheap as is it now, it's not really necessary. Bit quicker for backups :-)

[wilson schulbus]

Originally Posted by uncleswede

Purely because it's a lossless format requiring half the storage of WAV. TBH, with disk space as fast and cheap as is it now, it's not really necessary. Bit quicker for backups :-)

Perfectly sensible. And, after doing a quick search I see it's value. Happy to try. Thank you.

[wilson schulbus]

Well. First couple hour in and getting nowhere. The XP Dell Mini laptop I'm hoping to use is not seeing the XR18 as a device yet. It did its new device thing when first plugged in but that's all the action I've seen. I'm assuming I need to install a driver of some sort but the one I downloaded from the Behringer site and moved via a thumb drive is apparently incompatible. When trying from the XP device I am not finding a driver or pages are blocked for some reason, assuming a default security setting I've not yet located. Not enjoying work on that particular machine right now... Thinking replacement or using another device that I already own. Like my 12.9" iPad Pro!

Does anyone know if a project captured on an Apple product, like said Ipad Pro for instance, is compatible if transferred to a Win 10 desktop to edit and work on?

[serr]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

Does anyone know if a project captured on an Apple product, like said Ipad Pro for instance, is compatible if transferred to a Win 10 desktop to edit and work on?

WAV files of multitrack are supported by the Windows version of Reaper just like the Mac version. Apple is still disabling FLAC support to push their Apple Lossless version of the same thing (ALAC). If you record to ALAC files you might have to convert them to FLAC or WAV for Reaper which still doesn't recognize ALAC files. (In protest?)

[Shorty123]

You do need drivers indeed, and I'm afraid they're not available for XP. Maybe you can install windows 7 on the Dell laptop, or find a cheap used one with windows 7 already installed. I'm using a W7 Dell laptop every week together with the XR18 to multitrack our bandrehearsals. No problems at all.

For recording to your iPad you could use Auria. It will record multitrack straight out of the XR18 and export Reaper compatible files according to this thread: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=183592

Good Luck!

[cyrano]

Originally Posted by serr

Apple is still disabling FLAC support to push their Apple Lossless version of the same thing (ALAC). If you record to ALAC files you might have to convert them to FLAC or WAV for Reaper which still doesn't recognize ALAC files. (In protest?)

Apple has FLAC support in High Sierra. Hallelujah! They have seen the light

[wilson schulbus]

Originally Posted by Shorty123

You do need drivers indeed, and I'm afraid they're not available for XP. Maybe you can install windows 7 on the Dell laptop, or find a cheap used one with windows 7 already installed. I'm using a W7 Dell laptop every week together with the XR18 to multitrack our bandrehearsals. No problems at all.

For recording to your iPad you could use Auria. It will record multitrack straight out of the XR18 and export Reaper compatible files according to this thread: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=183592

Good Luck!

Interesting that WIN 7 is supported but not newer and probably more widely used, XP. But it is what it is. What driver is available for WIN 7? But, I think before I go backwards to WIN 7 I'd just find some relatively inexpensive WIN 10 laptop, 2-in-1 or some such thing. I could find a couple applications for such a tool so at least in my head I can justify it. Lord knows I need yet another device...

[Shorty123]

Are we talking about the same XP here? Going backwards from XP to Win 7?? In my opinion you're going forwards :-)

[serr]

Originally Posted by cyrano

Apple has FLAC support in High Sierra. Hallelujah! They have seen the light

Wow, the stubbornness finally breaks! Only after 15 years or so of failing to start selling lossless music in ALAC in their Itunes store...

Progress!

[wilson schulbus]

Originally Posted by Shorty123

Are we talking about the same XP here? Going backwards from XP to Win 7?? In my opinion you're going forwards :-)

HA! I understand the sentiment. I guess I was thinking chronologically. And I grew to like XP I guess. I see some units out there with 8.1 as well

[Jack Winter]

Does apple support wavepack then? I settled on that as a lossless format many years ago, as it was free while flac was still encumbered.

[Shorty123]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

HA! I understand the sentiment. I guess I was thinking chronologically. And I grew to like XP I guess. I see some units out there with 8.1 as well

Haha!! Yeah I still like XP also, but you have to let her go! 😉

[wilson schulbus]

Happy day! I picked up a like new Acer 2-in-1/convertible tablet/laptop running WIN 10 today from a nice old couple on Craigslist. Downloaded the necessary bits like Reaper, X-Air and the XR18 ASIO driver and in my first attempt to set up a new 18 channel record master project I had input! Looks like it was recording whatever signal I sent in as well. The recording monitor section did not look like that which I have seen in the tutorial videos but I'll sort that out soon. I'll go back and make sure all rates match across all platforms. and play some more as the week progresses. But it's a big step forward in hitting my goal to record this Saturday night's show.

[uncleswede]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

But it's a big step forward in hitting my goal to record this Saturday night's show.

When you set up at the show, adjust each channel's gain so it is peaking about -18dBfs (just going into the yellow on the gain meters) at typical performance volume. This will leave plenty of headroom for the live mix but will also deliver a safe volume into the DAW, again with some headroom.

Don't make the rookie mistake I did on my first gig/live recording with the XR18 and have the XR18 gains too hot... The DAW recorded tracks for the first half were just about OK but in the second half, where the backline always "mysteriously" gets louder, there was lots of gain clipping on the resultant DAW tracks which made them unusable

[serr]

Those must have been clipped pretty hard to be "unusable"! You weren't hearing that at the show?

It sucks to be an idiot but I have to admit to bringing home singed tracks a few times that I just didn't hear during the live mix. Nothing that crossed the line into unusable though. Try iZotope clip restoration. This has saved the day a few times.

[uncleswede]

Originally Posted by serr

Those must have been clipped pretty hard to be "unusable"! You weren't hearing that at the show?

It sucks to be an idiot but I have to admit to bringing home singed tracks a few times that I just didn't hear during the live mix. Nothing that crossed the line into unusable though. Try iZotope clip restoration. This has saved the day a few times.

It was because the tap point to the DAW is directly after the pre-amp (pre-fader, pre-EQ, pre-everything!) and the gain was HOT. For the FOH sound, of course, everything was post-FX/Fader so got away with it. Mind you the monitor mix must have been shit :-)

Anyway, lesson learned and every recording fine, with plenty of headroom, since then

[wilson schulbus]

Originally Posted by uncleswede

When you set up at the show, adjust each channel's gain so it is peaking about -18dBfs (just going into the yellow on the gain meters) at typical performance volume. This will leave plenty of headroom for the live mix but will also deliver a safe volume into the DAW, again with some headroom.

Don't make the rookie mistake I did on my first gig/live recording with the XR18 and have the XR18 gains too hot... The DAW recorded tracks for the first half were just about OK but in the second half, where the backline always "mysteriously" gets louder, there was lots of gain clipping on the resultant DAW tracks which made them unusable

Working with this now. I have limited things to test with so it's just an iPod into channels 1-2. Got signal and seems to record fine. I have not figured out yet how to hear back through the recording laptop but that's minor at the moment. The meters is what I need to understand based on your response. They're tiny to be sure on an 11" screen. I see a couple things. The 'docker' meters don't seem to tell me much about the input level as a number. The mixer view seems to offer a bit more detail but not a number, at least as an input value. So, is there an input gain trim adjustment somewhere I haven't found yet? Os is that done on the mixer channel gain? It seems if it has to be done at the channel that then messes with my overall house mix settings I have worked so hard to perfect. :-)

[cyrano]

Originally Posted by Jack Winter

Does apple support wavepack then? I settled on that as a lossless format many years ago, as it was free while flac was still encumbered.

Not natively, but you can install it with brew.

[uncleswede]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

Working with this now. I have limited things to test with so it's just an iPod into channels 1-2. Got signal and seems to record fine. I have not figured out yet how to hear back through the recording laptop but that's minor at the moment. The meters is what I need to understand based on your response. They're tiny to be sure on an 11" screen. I see a couple things. The 'docker' meters don't seem to tell me much about the input level as a number. The mixer view seems to offer a bit more detail but not a number, at least as an input value. So, is there an input gain trim adjustment somewhere I haven't found yet? Os is that done on the mixer channel gain? It seems if it has to be done at the channel that then messes with my overall house mix settings I have worked so hard to perfect. :-)

It's the XR18 channel gain settings that determine the actual levels hitting Reaper (at least, by default). If your individual xr18 channel gains are set to give about -18dB from your sources then you should be good to go for both the recording and your house mix. You can always turn your Main LR fader and/or the PA and monitors up if you have to reduce the channel gains on your current setup! The metering on the XR18 is basic, I agree, but the first yellow mark on the meters is about right.

To hear the recordings back on the laptop is a little trickier and I wouldn't normally bother with that at a gig. As long as you've got the levels right and you can see decent waveforms on all the recorded tracks that should be fine. You can review them later. If you still interested then, in summary, you need to set the hardware output of a recorded track in reaper to an xr18 output channel, then on that same channel on the xr18 change the source from analog to USB.

[wilson schulbus]

Originally Posted by uncleswede

It's the XR18 channel gain settings that determine the actual levels hitting Reaper (at least, by default). If your individual xr18 channel gains are set to give about -18dB from your sources then you should be good to go for both the recording and your house mix. You can always turn your Main LR fader and/or the PA and monitors up if you have to reduce the channel gains on your current setup! The metering on the XR18 is basic, I agree, but the first yellow mark on the meters is about right.

To hear the recordings back on the laptop is a little trickier and I wouldn't normally bother with that at a gig. As long as you've got the levels right and you can see decent waveforms on all the recorded tracks that should be fine. You can review them later. If you still interested then, in summary, you need to set the hardware output of a recorded track in reaper to an xr18 output channel, then on that same channel on the xr18 change the source from analog to USB.

I must run my gains hot because in looking at them from out last few shows I have vocals set from +26 to +28, guitars at +23 to +29, Bass +25 and that has me questioning my methods and understanding of channel gain setting on the XR18. Analog mixers were always around 0db as I recall and easy to read on the meters. But in trying to sort through my Reaper learning I think I read somewhere that input gain setting on digital products are not the same. Time to review that as well I guess.

[uncleswede]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

I must run my gains hot because in looking at them from out last few shows I have vocals set from +26 to +28, guitars at +23 to +29, Bass +25 and that has me questioning my methods and understanding of channel gain setting on the XR18. Analog mixers were always around 0db as I recall and easy to read on the meters. But in trying to sort through my Reaper learning I think I read somewhere that input gain setting on digital products are not the same. Time to review that as well I guess.

I don't claim to understand the technical details fully, but I read that -18dB on a digital meter is equivalent to 0dB on an analog meter.

[wilson schulbus]

Originally Posted by uncleswede

I don't claim to understand the technical details fully, but I read that -18dB on a digital meter is equivalent to 0dB on an analog meter.

Same as I saw. And a little research and vids this morning confirm that, -18 to -12 meter range on my model I guess. I will have to pay a bit closer attention tonight at what the meters look like. I am now thinking because that's all input device dependent there's really no correlation between what my gain settings read vs. actual meter reads so it's something I need to be a bit more aware of since my thinking and historical point of reference was initially wrong on this.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

Analog mixers were always around 0db as I recall and easy to read on the meters. But in trying to sort through my Reaper learning I think I read somewhere that input gain setting on digital products are not the same. Time to review that as well I guess.

You definitively should try to stay at -18 dB from the digital limit (0dB).

Using the program provided by Behringer (for Windows, iOS, and Android) you can watch the XR18 just like an analogue mixer, So I don't see any problem with adjusting the gain for each channel.

In fact, with the XR18, the input gain circuit is a combination of a digitally controlled analogue preamp preceded by a digitally controlled attenuator. So a wide range of input gain (soft mic to loud line) is covered.

-Michael

[wilson schulbus]

Well, I did my thing and thought I captured two full sets but on transferring what I thought was the SET 1 and SET 2 files I am only hearing a few seconds of something and the 2nd set has two songs. All tracks as planned, just two songs in length. I am thinking I may have the file locations squirreled up even though I started each set with a new, renamed master template. I'll go back and transfer more of everything that has recorded files and see if that helps

Does anyone know if the recording process stops if the laptop goes into sleep, or the screen shuts down? That's one area I did not consider nor expect to happen if there was activity happening. Easy enough to fix, just curious if that's part of my problem. and I did not see the expected recording audio waveforms ever. Perhaps that box needed some expanding since I was able to open them up on playback. Unnerving live though.

On the positive, what I did hear was as planned so that's positive. Actually a bit low for some levels so I can tweak those next for time.

I have a bit more basic knowledge to cover again as well. My FLAC setting did not stick, all were recorder as WAV. No big deal, just not what I thought I had set and saved in the master. And, my basic file setup to get things complete into a chosen file, not a file, within a file, within a file.

[somebodyelseuk]

Somewhere in amongst the settings, there is (or used to be) a tick box, which is ticked by default, that limits project length to (I think) six minutes. I have a horrible feeling that you may have this ticked, and that's all you've got as a result?

[uncleswede]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

Well, I did my thing and thought I captured two full sets but on transferring what I thought was the SET 1 and SET 2 files I am only hearing a few seconds of something and the 2nd set has two songs. All tracks as planned, just two songs in length. I am thinking I may have the file locations squirreled up even though I started each set with a new, renamed master template. I'll go back and transfer more of everything that has recorded files and see if that helps

Does anyone know if the recording process stops if the laptop goes into sleep, or the screen shuts down? That's one area I did not consider nor expect to happen if there was activity happening. Easy enough to fix, just curious if that's part of my problem. and I did not see the expected recording audio waveforms ever. Perhaps that box needed some expanding since I was able to open them up on playback. Unnerving live though.

On the positive, what I did hear was as planned so that's positive. Actually a bit low for some levels so I can tweak those next for time.

I have a bit more basic knowledge to cover again as well. My FLAC setting did not stick, all were recorder as WAV. No big deal, just not what I thought I had set and saved in the master. And, my basic file setup to get things complete into a chosen file, not a file, within a file, within a file.

Hi. Sorry it didn't go to plan...

I have set up a Recording power plan on my Windows laptop choosing high performance with no action on lid close, sleep or pressing the power button.

It's also important to load your project template before the start of the gig then save it immediately. This way (assuming you have chosen to save your project files in a project sub-folder - if not, do so!) your recorded audio files will be saved in the project folder rather than the temporary audio folder that Reaper uses for unsaved projects.

[wilson schulbus]

Thanks to everyone's generosity and knowledge I am making pretty good progress towards my goal. The truncated recording session issue has been solved by a combo of changing the PC power settings to stay on and upping one of the capacity settings (which one escapes me right now) the I was able to capture a couple full sets of usable raw material to see what comes next. Had success getting the files in sensible order and transferred between computers. The first listen had me scared. pretty awful sounding. But I have learned how to use the necessary plug-ins to put things on the right track. Basic EQ, compression, FX, autotune, etc and it transformed the tracks into something very usable. Took a couple cracks at mastering and rendering and the results were very usable. I'll go back now as I learn more from digesting YouTube tutorials and make them even better. I am still struggling with the most basic mechanics of working around the actual waveforms. I keep doing things by clicking in that area that baffle me. The simplest act of cropping the ends off things, fade in and out are something I need to be way better at and stop sliding individual tracks around or out of place. And after that to figure out what piece of equipment I need to interface instrument with PC to attempt some over dubs, punch in's, etc.

I do keep getting this message on opening every associated .RPP file:

"The following file could not be found: 01-170918_1911.wav"

Not sure what file that might be or how important it is but I seem to be able to ignore it and it has no impact on anything else. I am thinking I will have to remake my master project file/template to eventually rid the system of this issue.

[cyrano]

Originally Posted by cyrano

Apple has FLAC support in High Sierra. Hallelujah! They have seen the light

Strike that. It's only in iOS 11. Another promise forgotten, I'm afraid.

[serr]

Originally Posted by cyrano

Strike that. It's only in iOS 11. Another promise forgotten, I'm afraid.

Cue sad trombone clip.

Jeeze... So they're sticking with the over 10 years out of date obsolete media player model for Itunes then. Installing 10.13 is on my short list of things to do. Haven't got to it just yet. I see the installer has the same bugs flagging the compatible 2009 machines as not. Not very impressive there. I see the patch already released though.

They really dropped the ball and kicked it away with cross compatibility for iOS and OSX with the iphones and Macs at this point too. Just a shocking failure with version control. Microsoft-like even.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by wilson schulbus

Thanks to everyone's generosity and knowledge I am making pretty good progress towards my goal. The truncated recording session issue has been solved by a combo of changing the PC power settings to stay on and upping one of the capacity settings (which one escapes me right now) the I was able to capture a couple full sets of usable raw material to see what comes next. Had success getting the files in sensible order and transferred between computers. The first listen had me scared. pretty awful sounding. But I have learned how to use the necessary plug-ins to put things on the right track. Basic EQ, compression, FX, autotune, etc and it transformed the tracks into something very usable. Took a couple cracks at mastering and rendering and the results were very usable. I'll go back now as I learn more from digesting YouTube tutorials and make them even better. I am still struggling with the most basic mechanics of working around the actual waveforms. I keep doing things by clicking in that area that baffle me. The simplest act of cropping the ends off things, fade in and out are something I need to be way better at and stop sliding individual tracks around or out of place. And after that to figure out what piece of equipment I need to interface instrument with PC to attempt some over dubs, punch in's, etc.

I do keep getting this message on opening every associated .RPP file:

"The following file could not be found: 01-170918_1911.wav"

Not sure what file that might be or how important it is but I seem to be able to ignore it and it has no impact on anything else. I am thinking I will have to remake my master project file/template to eventually rid the system of this issue.

Yep.
When making your template there was a .wav file in your file recorded 18th september '17 at 19:11 hrs. This exact file will not be in any new projects, so it wants to know where it went.
Save the template without the recordings and next time it shouldn't ask for it again. Maybe "save as new template" to a new name.