Request, post 5.50 - FR for automation items, not automation containers (DONE)

[mccrabney]

this is a bummer for multiple reasons, foremost among them is that it
doesn't solve the issue of envelopes stealing one's ability to control
FX parameters by midi cc. from the beginning, the attractive idea behind
automation envelopes was that envelopes would be DISABLED while not contained
within an item, leaving the parameter able to be controlled by a midi CC
that was learned to the parameter. currently, as soon as you enable an
envelope, any learns that you have set up are overriden. this absolutely sucks
for live performance.

it's also a visual nightmare for the instances where you're applying a
track volume fadeout but you only need the envelope to be active/visible
at the start/end of the project. item envelopes are not an adequate solution
to this problem because of slicing etc, this isn't 90s, and items get cut
up a LOT.

this issue was raised, seconded, thirded, and discussed multiple times in
the pre-release forum, so here i am again. i'm sure that this is going to
be an issue for many people who expected one thing from these "Automation
items" and got something else -- automation containers, which are very well
implemented and useful in their own right.

however, these do not fulfill the request as discussed in the pre-release thread.

[schwa]

The major issue here, as discussed during the prerelease cycle, is that it would introduce non-deterministic playback. If you want the automated parameter to behave as if there were no envelope outside of automation items, then the project will sound different depending on what time position playback is started from, and potentially different when replaying from the exact same time position.

As a specific example: if a parameter's default value is 0, and there is an automation item starting on bar 3 containing a single point with value 0.5, then playing back the project from the start will cause the parameter value to be 0 for the first 2 measures, then change to 0.5 and stay there. If you then play the project back from the start, the parameter will remain at 0.5 and the project will sound different.

This behavior is not impossible to implement, but it does require introducing a new non-deterministic mode that is really only useful for live performance.

[EvilDragon]

What if...

Envelopes could "chase" the values like CCs do? Areas outside of automation items in this case would be in perpetual touch mode (if I'm understanding correctly), so touch would work in tandem with chase - if you move the automated parameter via MIDI or otherwise, that's the new value to be chased, until the next playback pass, at the very least.

[mccrabney]

Originally Posted by schwa

it would introduce non-deterministic playback.

midi ccs already do this, and have since the 80s. but that's not the point, even though it is already the case in REAPER, so it shouldn't be a conceptual problem...

If you want the automated parameter to behave as if there were no envelope outside of automation items, then the project will sound different depending on what time position playback is started from, and potentially different when replaying from the exact same time position.

deterministic solution, as discussed during the prerelease cycle -- seek previous envelope value and play from there. envelope is disabled in-between, and allow midi ccs to continue to control the parameter as learned.

This behavior is not impossible to implement, but it does require introducing a new non-deterministic mode that is really only useful for live performance.

the request isn't necessary for non-deterministic behavior, though that shouldn't be as wild as it seems to be given that again, midi sequencers have been doing non-deterministic parameter control since the 80s. but again, that's not the request. the request is and has been disabled envelopes in between automation data so that our midi cc learns aren't useless.

[mccrabney]

can we just forget this whole non-deterministic mode sidetrack??? that whole thing is a secondary FR to the main FR, which is automation items that only provide automation data within the automation bounds -- otherwise there IS NO AUTOMATION and your midi learns can do their job.

that was the FR and that is why the automation items FR has not been fulfilled yet.

[schwa]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

can we just forget this whole non-deterministic mode sidetrack???

It's not a sidetrack. In order for playback to be deterministic, parameter values would need to be chased on seeking or restarting playback. There is a fair amount of non-trivial logic in REAPER to ensure that MIDI CCs are chased properly in this situation. That logic would need to be added to FX parameter automation, and would be even less non-trivial, because parameter automation is affected by parameter modulation, parameter linking, etc.

It really isn't just a matter of turning off envelopes outside of automation items -- the other piece needs to be added, or playback will no longer be deterministic. It's not a red herring, honest.

[mccrabney]

Originally Posted by schwa

In order for playback to be deterministic, parameter values would need to be chased on seeking or restarting playback.

good, perfect, do it! and leave non-AI territory uninhibited by automation! chase it! this was the FR to begin with.

There is a fair amount of non-trivial logic in REAPER to ensure that MIDI CCs are chased properly in this situation.

props to fighting that battle, i didn't know that. anyone coming from a background of hardware midi sequencing wouldn't expect deterministic interpretation of ccs. added bonus. i haven't discovered that because i shirk from using ccs in reaper because i prefer using automation for a variety of reasons. and thus, i'm back to the same issue that i started this FR with.

chase previous value. that was the FR, if it was ever unclear. DISABLE envelopes in between AIs, seek previous automation data for deterministic playback, and don't show an envelope where one is not active.

do this:



don't make me fill the entire bathtub. let me use the ccs i learned. please. that was the FR. dare i say, this is the AI FR for the entire electronic genre.

again, schwa, let me say that your automation editing platform is GREAT. i really hope that my issues don't override how much i like and truly admire the work you've done. i don't want to be the analogy guy but i asked for a shovel and you provided a terrific trowel, i'm truly going to love using it but it isn't the shovel i hoped for.

[jm duchenne]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

as promised, i'm here to complain that the automation items provided
in REAPER 5.5 do not fulfill the feature request.

here is a metaphor to help explain what's wrong here:

imagine that your reaper project is a bathtub and that your automation
item is a cup of water that you can move around inside the project.
here is the expectation. you can put your cup of water in the bathtub
and do whatever you want in the space around this cup of water.

and here is what we got with REAPER's automation items: you have to
fill the entirety of your bathtub with an amount of water in order to
even consider putting the cup in there.

this issue was raised, seconded, thirded, and discussed multiple times in
the pre-release forum, so here i am again. i'm sure that this is going to
be an issue for many people who expected one thing from these "Automation
items" and got something else -- automation containers, which are very well
implemented and useful in their own right.

however, these do not fulfill the request as discussed in the pre-release thread.

+ 1000 !

I was happy to see some work on "automation items", but very dispointed that they were NOT automation items, just boxes to give a better control on Automation Lanes (which is obviously usefull for many users).
So I am glad to see that the discussion is not closed

But for me, I continue to use CC MIDI items, which are not perfect, but work as I expect : items that contain all the automation informations in one single object, that can be easily and freely moved, resized, splitted, time-stretched, duplicated, that can share the same track with the audio items with which it can be grouped or not, and that can be unfolded to the full screen for precise editing of its automation lanes.

[HighVoltage]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

this is a bummer for multiple reasons, foremost among them is that it
doesn't solve the issue of envelopes stealing one's ability to control
FX parameters by midi cc. from the beginning, the attractive idea behind
automation envelopes was that envelopes would be DISABLED while not contained
within an item, leaving the parameter able to be controlled by a midi CC
that was learned to the parameter.

THIS!!!! A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!!!

I was so happy for this new feature and then found out as soon as i enable any automation my FX parameter gets stuck! It's just absolutely unintuitive. This just kills the automation items incredible potential.

I understand why this is happening, but there should be at least an option for people who hate this behavior.

I have one solution in mind:
If you enable an automation lane for a parameter, but haven't written anything to the lane:
There is only one single point of automation and that is at the exact point of the start. At absolute 0. Reaper would interpret this as there is no automation yet, so it lets you move the parameter, and the line moves with it. Basically you can control the zero point's value with the knob (or CC).
A soon you write to the Envelope lane, things gets fixed. But if you decide to delete every point, but only leave the 0 point (which you have to anyway) Then you gain back the control.
Reaper could show this as a dashed line, or something to get even visual feedback.

It wouldn't break the current workflow for anyone, cause if they just want a static envelope, they would not use automation anyway just leave the parameter alone.
Or in extreme or unknown cases, they will just add another point the lane at the beginning, or better yet, just move the zero point from 0.

Option 2:
Just have an option somewhere in the envelope menu, to disable/bypass non-automation envelopes.

[MikComposer]

This is the effect of reaper team trying very hard to reinvent the wheel. I really wish they'd just check how other teams did it, and copy with improvements. But as it is right now, frankenreaper's code is not flexible enough. I wish the guys would rewrite reaper for r6, designing its code from ground up to be as modular as possible, so they can implement new features in complete forms, cause right now from what I am seeing everything is added trough finding a way around some other design limitations. Latest update is the first reaper update I am skipping in fear it will make things even more convoluted.

[EvilDragon]

Wow, you're so wrong

You don't HAVE to use automation items. Old behaviors still apply.

Also recoding 10+ years worth of code for v6 just isn't going to happen.


Also, it's like you're not reading what schwa said that the request mccrabney posted is impacted by other features like parameter modulation, so it isn't as straightforward or "how other guys did it" as you think.

[deeb]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Wow, you're so wrong
..
Also recoding 10+ years worth of code for v6 just isn't going to happen.

since you are not one of the coders ! probably you don't know what you are saying

[EvilDragon]

Recoding means working from scratch. You cannot make 10+ years worth of code in one year, it doesn't take one to be the actual coder of the program to make that statement and for that statement to be true. But actually I do know a few things about programming, since I do a form of it for living as my dayjob, so I do know what I'm saying.

So yes - it's NOT going to happen.

[mccrabney]

^ i knew the nut would get cracked eventually. persistence, good communication, popular appeal, luck -- all of these things are worthless. it's all about bathtub metaphors and shitty illustrations, nas.

electronic genre / hip hop music producers are getting to be a larger userbase for REAPER
i have only produced full songs on 2 daws in my 16 years of music production. tried several daws, but only casually. i've only ever written completed music on Acid Pro 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, and reaper 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, and 5.0

anytime i play alongside people, they're always excited to see something other than ableton being used.

[inarisound]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

^ i knew the nut would get cracked eventually. persistence, good communication, popular appeal, luck -- all of these things are worthless. it's all about bathtub metaphors and shitty illustrations, nas.

I need to try that!!!! maybe my <3 devs will take a look on my RF and we can improve Midi Editor once and 4 all !!!! xD

[gwok]

is this behavior with not having the automation lane active behind the AI currently implemented? I'm running 5.51 and am not seeing how to have an AI without the lane active/env line active as well. cheers

edit - nevermind, found it

options>automation items