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Old 08-05-2021, 01:59 PM   #41
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The mixing environment requires volume control that we can target with faders. Just so that doesn't get lost. There's the volume automation.

I suppose the object panning and volume would auto-assign target tracks, so the re-recording mixer does not have to target one of the 128(or however many) possible object tracks/channels. Reaper would just checkerboard as necessary.

The assignment of a time and track selection as an object would need to be just like automation being written to track and plugin parameters.

An example. From point A to point B on track 12, with these plugin , volume and RSP settings make that area one object. In that sense creating an object is just flipping a switch like you would on a plugin parameter. Reaper will now need to keep track of this particular area because the re-recording mixer is likely to make touch ups, but only THAT area will be assigned as an object. If track volume automation is recorded outside this area it will not become part of that object.

It might be prudent to indicate the existance of an object graphically, and methods of clearing that object assignment.

Reaper would also have to prevent the operator from double-assignments or creating overlaps.

Commands like "Clear objects from track & inside time selection" , or "... that time selection touches".

I reset stuff by using WRITE mode in a neutral area and writing across a 'contaminated' area.

Maybe this is all obvious to veteran users. I'm just trying to imagine the workflow.


Workflow side-notes:
I'd want temporary track and plugin parameter grouping as well. When you're dealing with a lot of tracks, it can get a slog to deal with. The Harrison MPCD consoles have this kind of thing, which makes giving the same panning/volume/fx parameter moves easy across as many tracks as you like.
I touched on this in this thread. Right now I'm using a somewhat silent script by SPK77 to run temporary groups but they still require track selections, which I really don't like to have to keep up. Create group, do stuff, write, clear group. Easier.

Sound designs for a single object can involve dozens of tracks. Imagine repeat panning all that stuff by hand instead of temp-grouping for just one move.
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Old 08-05-2021, 03:37 PM   #42
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I think the volume automation doesn't get lost, it renders on the audio stream as it should be. The object data contains only channel format and positioning. The Dolby Atmos renderer does some under-the-hood grouping for sources that are too close to save resources and optimize the sound.

Airon, I didn't understood why the object flag should be a state controlled by timeline automation, can you explain it a little more please?
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Old 08-06-2021, 01:08 AM   #43
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I think the volume automation doesn't get lost, it renders on the audio stream as it should be. The object data contains only channel format and positioning. The Dolby Atmos renderer does some under-the-hood grouping for sources that are too close to save resources and optimize the sound.
Interesting. The signal flow is thus highly 'custom'. This also brings latency in to the equation, because automation, including volume especially is not latency compensated after recording. I consider that one of Reapers major problems because what you hear during automation recording seemingly isn't what you get on a playback pass.

Quote:
Airon, I didn't understood why the object flag should be a state controlled by timeline automation, can you explain it a little more please?
I'm basing this off my own workflow, so if experienced Atmos mixers want to chip in and correct me, please do.


Designating a time+track selection(an area essentially) an object saves resources.

Dialogue, sound design elements and even backgrounds can be made of small bits and pieces, so it's not helpful to designate audio items as objects, but an area instead.

That way it's not the raw audio items being objects but a section of processed audio. This might include time-based effects that add to the length, so the mixer should be in control of what makes up an object.

And that can happen with a simple on/off envelope, just like send mutes.

Thus, one needs to worry about how automatic the object creation process should really be. Could be pass-based.

Maybe an auto-object-creation/update mode.
  • One object per track&channel inside a time selection
  • until transport stops
  • when a 'writing to actively latched' action happens
  • when 'all latches cleared' action happens during PLAY

And this could only happen on tracks with an RSP instance that designates the track as a possible object generator. At least that's how far I got with understanding the setup that may be in the works.


As for different target environments during mixing, the difference between monitoring via an external renderer or Reaper itself is just skipping the audio processing of the panner in RSP. So that's likely a big switch in the Options or a toolbar icon.
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Old 08-06-2021, 04:54 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
junh1024 (or anyone), it would be very helpful if you could possibly link to an ADM master for a small project that contains at least one bed and one object.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm duchenne View Post
These are not small projects, but they are free to download and study :
https://opencontent.netflix.com

They can be opened in Reaper with the Ear extension.
"Small" DDMs:
https://github.com/DolbyLaboratories...r/sample_files

Medium/large DDM w/multiple beds "A sound proposal" :
https://dolby.app.box.com/s/mrjqnh4c...5yu4f7kdor6691

They can be opened with RPR+EAR, but they're converted from cubular to circular coordinates using non-ideal assumptions, so is only an approximation atm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
It would be nice if the workflow didn't require any additional plugin instances or context-specific routing.

An example of how it might work:
I'll try to write up a new (UI) proposal with these new ideas. Going masterless & implicit would be more complex to implement tho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Dialogue, sound design elements and even backgrounds can be made of small bits and pieces, so it's not helpful to designate audio items as objects, but an area instead.

That way it's not the raw audio items being objects but a section of processed audio. This might include time-based effects that add to the length, so the mixer should be in control of what makes up an object.
This is true, but there are some issues with this.

Objects in almost all implementations exist for the entire duration of the project. So it would be better signaled in the UI as objects which get squashed down into a composite object.

The role of a ADM file is not necessarily to go straight to the encoder, but it may be edited again, hence a neat representation of your project is a priority. So a human would need to make sure that the composition makes sense. A tennisball on the same track as a violin would be very unexpected.

DDM has some organization now. Multiple beds can exist, and there are multiple pre defined groups for beds & obj such as music, sfx, and dialog.

Reducing objects to a 128 limit by playing tetris is also complex for PCs, since during a render, you don't know what audio is in advance, so this would need 2 passes (similar to . 128 > 16o reduction for Atmos for Home . and JOYSTICK', that is the ONLY time automatic object reduction is done with dolby stuffs iirc) But 2 passes may be done anyway due to collecting audio w/ schwa's new masterless approach.

Traditional approaches to hit 128 involve
- manually parenting or routing multiple audio tracks to a object track/bus
- send a bunch of tracks to a bed bus (beds were made for reducing object count)
- Careful object planning was done in advance for Frozen 2 https://www.asoundeffect.com/frozen-2-sound/

In conclusion, signalled object reduction would be a unique feature for RPR, but may be complex for humans & PCs.

are the traditional approaches sufficient for you or do you still need signalled object reduction?
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Old 08-06-2021, 06:47 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Interesting. The signal flow is thus highly 'custom'. This also brings latency in to the equation, because automation, including volume especially is not latency compensated after recording. I consider that one of Reapers major problems because what you hear during automation recording seemingly isn't what you get on a playback pass.
I don't know about that, but it seems that it falls out of the scope of this discussion. I hope if there is an issue in that area it would get solved. I read your report on the issue and it seems that you have a case. It remains for the dev team to look into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Dialogue, sound design elements and even backgrounds can be made of small bits and pieces, so it's not helpful to designate audio items as objects, but an area instead.

That way it's not the raw audio items being objects but a section of processed audio. This might include time-based effects that add to the length, so the mixer should be in control of what makes up an object.
You might have misunderstood something in the said workflow. In linear audio object-based authoring pipelines you don't designate audio items as object but the whole track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
As for different target environments during mixing, the difference between monitoring via an external renderer or Reaper itself is just skipping the audio processing of the panner in RSP. So that's likely a big switch in the Options or a toolbar icon.
Or just use sending to other tracks and continue monitoring form one master using a switch. That's how I do it now, and it's a great way to check consistency between different render targets.
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Old 08-06-2021, 06:51 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by junh1024 View Post
The role of a ADM file is not necessarily to go straight to the encoder, but it may be edited again, hence a neat representation of your project is a priority. So a human would need to make sure that the composition makes sense. A tennisball on the same track as a violin would be very unexpected.
Very good point!
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Old 08-06-2021, 08:54 AM   #47
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I assume you mean many RSP instances doing panning as opposed to 1 master.

Yes, but it would need a few things/niceities since RSP is a FX:
- Position & type sent from RSP pan (up to 128 instances) to RSP master instance
- Atm global config info sent from RSP master &/ project settings to RSP pan instances
- Keeping track of who is master, and auto-object ID w/ manual overriding to avoid/track conflicts (avoid manual ID step of EAR)
Render formats also have their own UI, which can be extended. The way I'm thinking about this, the channel format would be part of the ADM render settings. If the set of render source tracks (the selected tracks in a stem render) includes an RSP instance that is set as an ADM bed, the render settings can pull the channel format from it. If there's no RSP bed instance, or multiple instances, the user enters the channel format in the render settings.

Any rendered track that either has an RSP bed instance, or no RSP instance at all, will be rendered/summed to the final bed. Rendered tracks with RSP instances that are set as ADM objects get rendered as objects.

Does that make sense and seem workable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by junh1024 View Post
- RSP knowing how deep/hierarchy of track of itself & others are
Can you explain why you think this is necessary? Rendered object names would be taken 1:1 from the RSP object instances, which the user can name however they want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junh1024 View Post
- Send audio pre-pan, and pan info from RSP master to file render (this was implicit in proposal 1 anyway)
This is definitely the trickiest part of the under the hood implementation but is a requirement for any possible workflow.

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Originally Posted by junh1024 View Post
- Can Dolby ADM code can be licensed separately from Dolby rendering code?
Atmos ADM is an open format, no licensing.
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Old 08-06-2021, 09:11 AM   #48
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perhaps to post some mockup of UI and Workflow will help to spot strenghtness and points to elaborate?
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Old 08-06-2021, 02:54 PM   #49
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Atmos ADM is an open format, no licensing.
ADM is open format EBU, the name "Atmos" is Dolby (AFAIK) ... but ADM should be given to the Dolby Renderer in order to get the object to be uploaded on Apple Music/TIdal/Amazon. Up there there is the licensing.
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Old 08-07-2021, 04:30 AM   #50
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Those are the specs for the Delivery:

https://dolby.app.box.com/v/DolbyMusic-Specs

here what's occurring:
https://avid.secure.force.com/pkb/ar...tmos-Music-FAQ
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Old 08-07-2021, 07:37 PM   #51
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I know this is a narrow discussion targeting ATMOS implementation in Reaper (which I'm all for) but when it comes to ADM or MPEG-H music delivery we should keep in mind that the chokehold of Dolby is not as tight as it is in the theatrical world.

Avid may be trying to get a percentage on every Atmos music delivery as that link BartR shared suggests. That does not mean they need be the sole avenue through which these 360 music mixes, or indeed even Atmos specific mixes are approved. I think a Reaper authoring alternative would be timely in raising some important questions from content creators about who benefits from these paid "pre-flight" checks.
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Old 08-07-2021, 11:39 PM   #52
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I know this is a narrow discussion targeting ATMOS implementation in Reaper (which I'm all for) but when it comes to ADM or MPEG-H music delivery we should keep in mind that the chokehold of Dolby is not as tight as it is in the theatrical world.



Avid may be trying to get a percentage on every Atmos music delivery as that link BartR shared suggests. That does not mean they need be the sole avenue through which these 360 music mixes, or indeed even Atmos specific mixes are approved. I think a Reaper authoring alternative would be timely in raising some important questions from content creators about who benefits from these paid "pre-flight" checks.
Avid already gets percentage.
Indeed you pay to upload Atmos object. The only one way is through their portal, using their """free'""" application (I installed it to see how it works).
Once you have it, you should sign a subscription, then you can upload your music. However still affordable.

Beside this, it's important to implement Atmos in Reaper. What it will cost, is the purchasing of the Dolby renderer (the only one way: through Avid Market site ... there they get other fees ... at the end thir name is Avid ... not Generous or Altruist)
As far as it will make us able do not be forcely linked to a specific HW and OS, it's good.
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Old 08-08-2021, 04:12 AM   #53
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I think a Reaper authoring alternative would be timely in raising some important questions from content creators about who benefits from these paid "pre-flight" checks.
Hi Daryl, it's been a long time, hope you are well.

You raise a very good point here. Markets are chaotic and companies doing good business are always on the lookout. Reaper been able to author Dolby Atmos, will not only bring Dolby's attention to the mass opportunity, but also introduce the Dolby Atmos standard to a more open-minded clientele. Forces with enough power to create change in business models for the best of all stakeholders.
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Old 08-08-2021, 04:19 AM   #54
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What it will cost, is the purchasing of the Dolby renderer (the only one way: through Avid Market site ... there they get other fees ... at the end thir name is Avid ... not Generous or Altruist)
As far as it will make us able do not be forcely linked to a specific HW and OS, it's good.
As with any similar tech that is content-driven, without content there is no use of the tech. If Reaper opens up Atmos authoring to a bigger and more alternative audience, then the content that will be produced might be enough to make the record publishers invest on the overhead costs of publishing to record stores.

If Dolby Atmos becomes even more of a normality in music production, then a new publisher or store might take the opportunity to offer the service as part of their default features, to gain on the competition. Thus lowering the bar so more artists can pass above it.

We don't know exactly how this will progress, because we have gatekeepers which are the companies controlling the standards, but we also have keymasters, who are the artists who produce the content the gatekeepers need to have a viable business model. After all, the is no Dana only Zuul!
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Old 08-08-2021, 04:49 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
As with any similar tech that is content-driven, without content there is no use of the tech. If Reaper opens up Atmos authoring to a bigger and more alternative audience, then the content that will be produced might be enough to make the record publishers invest on the overhead costs of publishing to record stores.

If Dolby Atmos becomes even more of a normality in music production, then a new publisher or store might take the opportunity to offer the service as part of their default features, to gain on the competition. Thus lowering the bar so more artists can pass above it.

We don't know exactly how this will progress, because we have gatekeepers which are the companies controlling the standards, but we also have keymasters, who are the artists who produce the content the gatekeepers need to have a viable business model. After all, the is no Dana only Zuul!
I do agree with you. I just described this moment in time.
I think Reaper can really act as game changer int this context.

With Atmos as more normality, not only stores and Dolby itself have to change their approach, but also artists will be more stimulated to produce better material to propose.
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Old 08-08-2021, 05:25 AM   #56
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I do agree with you. I just described this moment in time.
I think Reaper can really act as game changer int this context.

With Atmos as more normality, not only stores and Dolby itself have to change their approach, but also artists will be more stimulated to produce better material to propose.
You bet, we saw the same "cut off the middle-man" philosophy when the Unity game engine started their free indie tier, including the same pro-level features for everybody. They were game changers. Reaper is proven to be a game-changer already.
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Old 08-10-2021, 04:51 AM   #57
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You bet, we saw the same "cut off the middle-man" philosophy when the Unity game engine started their free indie tier, including the same pro-level features for everybody. They were game changers. Reaper is proven to be a game-changer already.
I have the sensation Logic is moving toward kinda same solution: integrated penner instead of Dolby one.
If Reaper is on the game, this certainly will help.
And I do think it will be a huge step forward.
Honestly when I saw the new panner of Reaper, my first thought was "perhaps they're working fo Atmos". Even if several aspects about ergonomic should and can be ameliorated.

About the hardware connected with the RMW, I also got the indication that: RME and Focusrite are suggested but not mandatory interfaces.
They are suggested because supporting MADI/Dante, can easily work with the stream of 128 objects. It's not written in these terms on the Dolby's documentation, but this is what I got.

Moreover there is not any "mandatory certification" to get, in order to produce and publish in Dolby Atmos
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Old 08-10-2021, 06:12 AM   #58
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...integrated panner instead of Dolby one.
If Reaper is on the game, this certainly will help.
And on another sector we didn't mentioned yet.

Reaper is a highly engineered piece of application software and currently it supports (and is supported) for all the rest immersive formats.

From the Facebook360 to the IEM plugins and the EAR Production Suite to author NGA.

With it's vast configuration options, open-ended architecture, and light footprint not to mention scientific level of audio processing, it's the perfect choice to teach audio engineering.

Being able to also show Dolby Atmos which is a commercially successful immersive format, makes Reaper the all-around DAW to teach.

Having all formats under its belt will be the perfect workspace for lectures and workshops, so the educators and students of any level can discuss and develop skills in any audio engineering field.

I already use Reaper with success in classrooms for as long as it exists.

So apart from the content creators sector there is another part of our industry which is education, and it's very significant. How else are we going to make our art immortal?
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Old 08-10-2021, 11:28 PM   #59
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[quote]Dialogue, sound design elements and even backgrounds can be made of small bits and pieces, so it's not helpful to designate audio items as objects, but an area instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
That way it's not the raw audio items being objects but a section of processed audio. This might include time-based effects that add to the length, so the mixer should be in control of what makes up an object.
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You might have misunderstood something in the said workflow. In linear audio object-based authoring pipelines you don't designate audio items as object but the whole track.
That would mean I'd pipe all the stuff I want to end up in one object to one of up to 128 object tracks, and do all the panning moves on that. An interesting way to do it. Certainly puts a lot more pressure on editors to organize things.

I was assuming 100% flexibility for the re-recording mixer, being able to assign any section of any number of tracks to any one object. That would require more time. Can't wait to test this.
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Old 08-11-2021, 10:02 AM   #60
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[QUOTE=airon;2471367]
Quote:
That would mean I'd pipe all the stuff I want to end up in one object to one of up to 128 object tracks, and do all the panning moves on that. An interesting way to do it. Certainly puts a lot more pressure on editors to organize things.
This is the way we're doing it in game audio for decades :-)

Organizing things in streams is actually more intuitive because sound events come from sources in the real world, which have space properties. So keeping space and time separated as concepts help with asset management affordance.

[QUOTE=airon;2471367]
Quote:
I was assuming 100% flexibility for the re-recording mixer, being able to assign any section of any number of tracks to any one object.
I got it that you had that in mind when I read you post. It might appear more flexible as you present it, but when setting standards of production the physical instruments must not be 100% open and flexible because this leads to sub-par results and performance in the real world. Elegance on the other way is what any designer should strive for. The elegant tools have always the restrictions needed to ensure wide adoption, ease of use, quality in use.

To expand on this philosophy, the more a tool has the needed elegance on openness versus restrictions, the more it becomes transparent between the operator and the object. An elegant tool becomes an extension between the creator and the creation just like a good brush is used by a painter.

But this needs to be tested in the field, or the discussion is only academic. Or at least a simulated field. The developers alone or together with a focus group should consider which approach is the more elegant to achieve the tool's target mission. In my thought experiments I prefer to relate the stream with the object, but that might be because I come from the interactive audio sector.

On the practical side of things, I'm also thinking that time-based grouping of audio streams is already achievable by routing switching using automation items. Right?
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Old 08-11-2021, 10:42 AM   #61
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This is the way we're doing it in game audio for decades :-)

Organizing things in streams is actually more intuitive because sound events come from sources in the real world, which have space properties. So keeping space and time separated as concepts help with asset management affordance.


I got it that you had that in mind when I read you post. It might appear more flexible as you present it, but when setting standards of production the physical instruments must not be 100% open and flexible because this leads to sub-par results and performance in the real world. Elegance on the other way is what any designer should strive for. The elegant tools have always the restrictions needed to ensure wide adoption, ease of use, quality in use.

To expand on this philosophy, the more a tool has the needed elegance on openness versus restrictions, the more it becomes transparent between the operator and the object. An elegant tool becomes an extension between the creator and the creation just like a good brush is used by a painter.

But this needs to be tested in the field, or the discussion is only academic. Or at least a simulated field. The developers alone or together with a focus group should consider which approach is the more elegant to achieve the tool's target mission. In my thought experiments I prefer to relate the stream with the object, but that might be because I come from the interactive audio sector.

On the practical side of things, I'm also thinking that time-based grouping of audio streams is already achievable by routing switching using automation items. Right?
That's an interesting idea actually, though automation items live on their own lanes, so the actual session overview could get a bit nasty big. Nevertheless I'd have to give it a try, because just moving automation items around that contain send mutes or volume settings(which one is more efficient?) sounds enticing.

I already have two methods of creating send mute automation. Automation items would seem to be slower, but again I'd have to try that, change some preferences(automatically creating automation items for example) and give it a go.

I know some dialogue mixers that work with bus structures to pick and choose their processing, especially for TV. It's not far off to do that Atmos/whatever panner object bus tracks.

Does anyone worry about the space this takes(any compression?) or is each object bus auto-gated when creating some kind of final playback file, just to keep in check ? Then again, no wonder home Atmos only uses, 16 objects at once iirc ?
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Old 08-11-2021, 08:13 PM   #62
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That's an interesting idea actually, though automation items live on their own lanes, so the actual session overview could get a bit nasty big. Nevertheless I'd have to give it a try, because just moving automation items around that contain send mutes or volume settings(which one is more efficient?) sounds enticing.
I use that way (with automation items) mostly because it's similar to item editing and I can move them around and copy paste them (or even better edit one and then all pooled items change automatically) and in general for me it seems more organized than simple lines of automation running the complete timeline. I currently use only automation items and select the option to mute the automation outside them so at the moments in time that an automation item doesn't exists, the parameters are free.

Personally I love this workflow.
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Old 08-12-2021, 04:06 AM   #63
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Render formats also have their own UI, which can be extended. The way I'm thinking about this, the channel format would be part of the ADM render settings. If the set of render source tracks (the selected tracks in a stem render) includes an RSP instance that is set as an ADM bed, the render settings can pull the channel format from it. If there's no RSP bed instance, or multiple instances, the user enters the channel format in the render settings.

Any rendered track that either has an RSP bed instance, or no RSP instance at all, will be rendered/summed to the final bed. Rendered tracks with RSP instances that are set as ADM objects get rendered as objects.

Does that make sense and seem workable?
Yes, but multiple beds are possible &since ADM may be further edited so you want to retain maximum separation if it fits in the limit. I'm still writing another & bigger proposal, also involving monitoring changes.

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I already have two methods of creating send mute automation. Automation items would seem to be slower, but again I'd have to try that, change some preferences(automatically creating automation items for example) and give it a go.

I know some dialogue mixers that work with bus structures to pick and choose their processing, especially for TV. It's not far off to do that Atmos/whatever panner object bus tracks.

Does anyone worry about the space this takes(any compression?) or is each object bus auto-gated when creating some kind of final playback file, just to keep in check ? Then again, no wonder home Atmos only uses, 16 objects at once iirc ?
ADM files are uncompressed PCM 48/24 WAV. Example files linked in earlier posts.

You can cut clips into parts & then mute those parts.

128>16o downmixing is done for home delivery, see here for how 16o might behave
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Old 08-13-2021, 12:09 AM   #64
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128>16o downmixing is done for home delivery, see here for how 16o might behave
Right although there shouldn't be this limitation in the platform.It's up to the mixer-engineer to choose for less (only what she needs at the moment in time).
The main reason: on that way Reaper can be employed also in Cinema, not only for music and games.

About the panner
The Panner from Fraunhofer creates objects and exports ADM. There is a template for Reaper. But I don't think that sending that ADM to the Dolby Renderer it will accept it, not even something in realtime on the same machine or to a dedicated machine via Dante/MADI

P.S. Can't wait to read your proposal :-)
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Old 08-13-2021, 12:23 AM   #65
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Please here Atmos Samples directly from Dolby site.
Registration is required. But it's free (strange :-p )

They are in MP4 I see

https://developer.dolby.com/tools-me...sound-library/
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Old 08-13-2021, 04:34 AM   #66
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# REAPER Dolby ADM proposal 3

NEW Proposal 3, masterless & implicit (or masterful)


## Changelog

3.25: reorganize
3.2: RSP tweaks
3.1: add masterful approach
3.0: initial proposal, separate "unified RSP" from main proposal

# MAIN PROPOSAL
Reasurroundpan


The output layout when doing DA, is thus, now a monitoring layout and not directly affecting Atmos. RSP can be inserted on tracks, or master.

RSP has a NEW menu/menu widget under the existing output layout for setting DA mode. Input channels sets the elements available for Atmos panning/use, and also sets the object type, if a object mode was chosen (see below). The Dolby Atmos mode has these options:
  • Dolby Atmos Off. Current behavior, or can be used as a send to Atmos bed or another instance of RSP.
  • Bed 2.0, Bed 30, Bed 51, Bed 71, bed 712 layouts. These are valid options in the Atmos Renderer. LFE-less versions of 5x/7x exist, but are seldom used, esp for RPR/SMPTE contexts, hence are not included to simplify the menu.
  • Bed 714 . This is actually implemented as 71 + 4 objects due to DDM. This is an important feature to avoid 712ism, where anything routed to a 712 bed has no height depth & sounds un spacious.
  • Bed 71 + multi objects (1st 8 inputs bed, rest are obj)
  • 4 (or more) reserved slots internally for future use.?
  • Object (mono), sets input chans to 1
  • Object (stereo), sets input chans to 2
  • Object (multi), no change to input chans
  • 4 (or more) reserved slots internally for future use.?

If a obj config is chosen, gain, LFE, delay, is locked to 0. The divergence control in RSP now controls the size of Atmos objects.

If a bed is chosen, they should be larger & transparent on the graphics to show bed sounds are more diffuse & may array. If a obj is chosen, the should be smaller to show obj sounds are pinpoint.

Code:
We want to encourage mixers to use objs more since beds don't really scale up on home soundtracks. 
Is separate bed/obj visualization parameters good for encouragin obj use Or Can you think of a better way? **
RSP has a NEW smaller menu beside the DA mode menu, which shows $numtotal/128, and expands to 3 read-only menu items, which show element counts:
  • $num_bed bed elements (total bed channels in rpp, preferably non-empty)
  • $num_obj object elements (total obj channels in rpp, preferably non-empty)
  • Total $num_total elements/128 (approx)

## Render dialog
  • "Dolby ADM" is a new option in this dialog.
  • Sample format is 48/24 only, other options might be available in the future like 48/16.
  • NEW menu w/ 2 options:
  • > ADM from Master
  • > ADM from Stems (default & 2nd option)
  • > Read-only display: $num_total elements/128 (approx)
  • When render is pressed, and $num_total > 128 , A new dialog "Dolby ADM render may fail due to high element count, $num_total > 128 , continue? Yes | No (default button)"
  • If there is no RSP on master, despite "ADM from Stems" selected, A new dialog "Cannot find Reasurroundpan on master. OK (default button)"

## Render infrastructure
  • If ADM from master, audio is collected pre-pan from master RSP.
  • If ADM from stems, All tracks at the top level w/a master send excl empty tracks will be collected. This is now defined as "Any track(s)" for below.
  • If the collection run is done to disk, it should be done to temp FLAC/WV to minimise disk usage.
  • All volume envs are applied due to DDM
  • Any track/channels with RSP instance & a defined DA bed config will be rendered with the pan law set in each RSP.
  • Any track with RSP instance, but not a DA mode set will be converted to objects.

Rationale: This approach maximises separation, since ADM can potentially be edited further.

For tracks w/ no RSP instance,
  • Any tracks 2-wide will be converted to a 20 bed respectively
  • Other widths will error since there's no 100% correct & reliable way to guess layout of arbitrary width tracks w/ no RSP.

After the collection run, The assembly run will consolidate all the audio add pan automation metadata, only fully empty beds (comply to ADM?) & empty objects will not be included. Track order/ID is implicit from RPP track order. Object names will be taken from Tracks. If there are too many elements, the Export process will error "Too many elements, please send more tracks to beds, &/ consolidate beds to less beds". It will not auto consolidate to beds . For beds the name is $track-$chanprefix, For objects, the obj name is $track-$lettercounter. Examples:
  • Music-L
  • Music-R
  • Music-C
  • Birds-A
  • Birds-B

## File Menu
A new item "Create project from Dolby ADM" exists. A new track is created, with the ADM on it, which sends beds & objects to new component tracks. New mono wavs are NOT created on disk (unlike EAR import). (Rationale: This is fastest & most efficient. This send approach offers the lower resource usage than multi clips on multi tracks.)

Bed tracks up to N width are created, track type is from ADM config, deriving track name from ADM channel name, w/o prefix. 714 tracks are derived by naming since 714 bed is a custom type.
Object tracks are typed from ADM config, deriving track name from ADM channel name, w/o prefix. Objects are grouped into tracks of N width via naming.
ADM channels w/ unrecognized suffixes are routed to new tracks.

# SECONDARY PROPOSALS

## LFE/BMS AT Outputs for master track dialog
Has a NEW dropdown menu at the top center, titled LFE. Options:
  • (none)
  • $list of mono hardware outputs

Behavior: setting LFE to a output, creates a new mono output to that hardware (if there isnt one), and sets it to +10dB. If it's set back to none, that output is set back to 0dB.

Rationale: Dolby Atmos (DA) rendering includes bass management system (BMS). BMS should, at the very least, boosts LFE by 10dB to become the sub output, which is applied ONLY to monitoring, and NOT the soundtrack. BMS Optionally includes bass redirecting bandsplit filters for the rest of the chans, we can skip that for a simple implementation.

Code:
 Can you think of another/better way to implement BMS for RPR? Is it needed?**
## unified RSP settings

### Project Settings Dialog
The PS dialog, Advanced tab, has a NEW section called surround. New settings:
  • Surround pan law: all options available in RSP. The default is -3dB.
  • Output layout: all options available in RSP (custom is grabbed from the master/1st RSP instance ). The default is 5.1.

We do need 2 different pan law settings, since they apply in different contexts, and 20 pan law has some unintuitive & undesireable consequences such as affecting volume reduction of track folders.

### Reasurroundpan
  • Pan law has a NEW option & default, called "Project default", the actual value which is set in Project settings (PS).
  • The output layout has a NEW option & default, called "Project default", the actual value which is set in Project settings (PS).

This is similar to the Reapitch philosophy, and would go a huge step towards a definitive "master" layout as per other DAWs.

Code:
Do we need unified settings across all RSP?**

### RSP Naming/layout changes


All elevated speakers near edges should be named "height", not "overhead". Denon , Auro, DTS , agree.

https://rn.dmglobal.com/eudenon/4137.jpg (Dolby Atmos height setup)
https://regmedia.co.uk/2014/10/15/au...aker_array.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/2703/4...286ae54cff.jpg

A single speaker directly overhead should stay as "overhead"

https://live.staticflickr.com/4001/4...45bc604e7d.jpg

Auro layouts with height & top should be notated with 3 digits, since height and top layers are combined/same plane in implementations, and the 4th digit may refer to the bottom later.

https://regmedia.co.uk/2014/10/15/au...aker_array.jpg
https://i.gzn.jp/img/2009/04/20/nhk_...en_theater.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/4001/4...45bc604e7d.jpg


Auro layouts should be square based & have speakers in the corners, like the current
714 square layout. in line with the official creative tools. Previous RSP thread, thanks AZpercussion, Berg.

https://buy.auro-3d.com/wp-content/u...2/browser1.png

- Most of these except for square layout, is implemented in 6.35 rc3. Thanks schwa.

##RSP Ability to re order speaker outputs :
- Gain/influence is renamed to control
- A new menu item called "re-order"
- when that's selected, [-][+] buttons appear instead of sliders to re order speakers.

I think there was a suggestion to have speaker outputs reordering via drag n drop, but I can't find it. This is important, since mac/windows order differ in 71+ (side> back on mac, back > side on windows).

PS: this feature might be too complex for DA due to colleciton & interactions.


Starred **Behavior is (especially) up for discussion.

## Remarks
RSP now allows a masterless or masterful approach to DA.

I would prolly only use a masterful approach + static obj, since in RSP, circular panning isn't really automatable & canonical speaker angles differ btw circular & cubular.

But a full OBA approach could work for other people.

.
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Old 08-16-2021, 02:54 PM   #67
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Ok I got the answer about Fraunhofer Panner.

It's for MPEG-H (and till there I knew), not compatible with the renderer of Dolby.
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:29 AM   #68
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I see improvements on RSP in version 6.35.RC ... it seems "slightly slightly and silently we approach Atmos" :-)
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Old 08-18-2021, 03:43 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by junh1024 View Post
NEW Proposal 3, masterless & implicit (or masterful)
Just finished reading your proposal. you've done a lot of work writing this, thank you so much!!

Everyone should give this a good read and a lot of thought. There are also good ideas on surround panning law which imo is left behind, and you raise good questions that I think should be answered towards an openness that doesn't break industry standards so much.

Anyway, great read junh1024!!

Cheers :-)
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Old 08-19-2021, 07:30 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
Just finished reading your proposal. you've done a lot of work writing this, thank you so much!!

Everyone should give this a good read and a lot of thought. There are also good ideas on surround panning law which imo is left behind, and you raise good questions that I think should be answered towards an openness that doesn't break industry standards so much.

Anyway, great read junh1024!!

Cheers :-)
Yes indeed the work is great. And I think he has the main competence to carry out this.
I'm just reading and learning a lot of details andI appreciate what Junh1024 is making.
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:24 AM   #71
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BartR you started a nice focus group here and I'm very happy that I found it. Kudos!

I believe that most of the work is done (and my thanks to junh1024 for the technical proposal), and I'm sure that anyone who reads this thread can get a good idea of how Dolby Atmos architecture works and the areas that the developers should focus when they integrate Dolby Atmos with Reaper.

Being able to render for one of the most marketed immersive formats the "Reaper way" would a dream come true indeed.
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Old 08-19-2021, 06:12 PM   #72
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I'll give it a read tomorrow as super late at night now

I read the first bit about 10db boost and my concern there would be that it leads to less headroom at the DA converter and also that I thought this should be done in monitoring stage post everything which is how I have it set up.

Anyway, will read again on the weekend as I might have misread it
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Old 08-19-2021, 07:22 PM   #73
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I thought this should be done in monitoring stage post everything which is how I have it set up.
That sounds safer, unless I'm missing something too.
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Old 08-20-2021, 04:34 AM   #74
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Please here Atmos Samples directly from Dolby site. Registration is required. But it's free (strange :-p ) They are in MP4 I see. https://developer.dolby.com/tools-me...sound-library/
They're DDP but likely 10/20, not @m. Making dolby ADM is the point of this FR and there are very few free/ low cost things that can make DDM.
[B]



Quote:
Originally Posted by BartR View Post
I see improvements on RSP in version 6.35.RC ... it seems "slightly slightly and silently we approach Atmos" :-)
thanks for headsup. I'm still workin on 3.3 of my proposal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
I read the first bit about 10db boost and my concern there would be that it leads to less headroom at the DA converter and also that I thought this should be done in monitoring stage post everything which is how I have it set up.

Anyway, will read again on the weekend as I might have misread it
You can choose to turn LFE (boost) on/off, depending if your BMS/boost is software or hardware. My intention is for correct LFE/sub monitoring levels since I think LFE levels are wrong a lot of the time due to no +10db. Hardware out was the best place i thought of to where put it. The worst that should happen is your LFE gets clipping when sending to sub, but maybe your LFE was too loud in the 1st place.

Maybe there's a better wording/place that this could use. Or maybe could do w/o this feature at all.
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Old 08-20-2021, 07:51 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by junh1024 View Post
I think LFE levels are wrong a lot of the time due to no +10db.
That's true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junh1024 View Post
Maybe there's a better wording/place that this could use. Or maybe could do w/o this feature at all.
I think I like this feature, check switches are useful in quality control listening scenarios, far easier to access and toggle than doing it by some kind of fader next to a bunch of other faders.
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Old 08-21-2021, 03:23 AM   #76
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I think there was a suggestion to have speaker outputs reordering via drag n drop, but I can't find it. This is important, since mac/windows order differ in 71+ (side> back on mac, back > side on windows).
yes I did ask this time ago. because it's the most intuitive and practical thing in 21st century rather than the sliders or the +,- ... you can leave them as further controls. But free mouse positioning is a kinda must-have. Ergonomic, should be one of the aim :-)
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Old 08-21-2021, 03:56 AM   #77
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Now that we saw how and where to positioning the speakers, I think we should think on how topan the object inside that field, into the 3D space, with the mouse.

I'm aware that Atmos is not just panning, as they say (it's difficult to fully understand this concept as far as we don't take into consideration the phases), and then generate the code required by the renderer.

Told in 3 lines it seems an easy operation, while I think is way more complex than what could appear.
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Old 08-21-2021, 05:45 PM   #78
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Told in 3 lines it seems an easy operation, while I think is way more complex than what could appear.
That almost sounds like a Haiku! :-D
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Old 08-22-2021, 02:57 AM   #79
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yes I did ask this time ago. because it's the most intuitive and practical thing in 21st century rather than the sliders or the +,- ... you can leave them as further controls. But free mouse positioning is a kinda must-have. Ergonomic, should be one of the aim :-)
Channel output re ordering is good for non DA projects, except I later realized there's some issues with RSP custom order & DDM RI auto-detect layout for bed which would be somewhat complex to fix, so I'm not promoting the feature from now on.

If you want Channel output re ordering , you can insert a dummy JSFX & use IO pins to route that. There's also a "multi mix convert" in my suite (check my sig)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BartR View Post

I'm aware that Atmos is not just panning, as they say (it's difficult to fully understand this concept as far as we don't take into consideration the phases), and then generate the code required by the renderer.
DA is very complex, there's a lot of documentation, and a lot of things not written in docs (mainly how it behaves in practice). You can skim through the learning material.

https://learning.dolby.com/hc/en-us/...ction-Learning

Quote:
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That's true.
I think I like this (LFE) feature, check switches are useful in quality control listening scenarios, far easier to access and toggle than doing it by some kind of fader next to a bunch of other faders.
I had a menu since LFE might not be on 4. But since for RPR/SMPTE it's almost guaranteed, how about this simplified approach:
  • HW out is searched for a 3/4>* out or 4>* out.
  • A checkbox [.] LFE > Sub monitoring levels appears on that
  • If a stereo output is checked, 3/4>* out is split into 2 mono outs.
  • 4>* out is boosted by 10dB on a slider.
  • When the checkbox is unchecked, it goes back to 0.

How about that? Also, should 3/4>* out or 4>* out also be changed to 3/4>3/4 & 4>4out instead?

I'm saving up some new features so I can double-post on p3 due to 10,500ch limit.
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Old 08-22-2021, 05:36 AM   #80
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This is a super useful thread. To the extent possible, we'll be adding or changing whatever we can incrementally to move along the path toward ADM rendering, but I'm sure it will take a while before it's all implemented.
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