High DPI awarenes for plugins

MaXyM · 01-08-2019, 03:23 AM

Hello
I have no idea know how many of us are struggling with dight dpi related issues. Judging by how quick a software is being updated to support Win10 HighDPI - not too many

Right now I'm using Reaper set to be HiDPI aware as it provides best experience after using proper skin. With this configuration however I'm experiencing issues with plugins which are not HiDPI aware.

Here is what I identified:
1. if such plugin is running in native mode, its GUI is very small (unless it provides an option to scale the GUI)
2. if such plugin is bridged but option "Embed GUI" hasn't been selected, it's scaled by Windows OS. In this case GUI is reasonably big, but blurred a bit (this is how Windows scaling works)
3. If such plugin is bridged and option "Embed GUI" has been selected, the GUI is small.

While using 64bit version Reaper, even if plugin is compiled for 64bit architecture, if it is not HiDPI aware (and provides no multiple sizes/scaling), to get seasonable size of GUI I have to run it bridged with no embedding.

This in turn rises up several issues like:
1. not embedded plugin, causes its container floating around. The container is not always useless as contains list of presets, automation functions and some other stuff, but it's annoying.
2. container not filled in by plugin GUI has very narrow preset narrow list (reported already in bug subforum)

In addition you cannot embed/un-embed the plugin in runtime. You have to replace it by the same plugin, setting 'embed' feature for the new. But this way you likely loose an plugin preset/settings. I found a workaround: add another instance of the same plugin, using desired options (native,bridged,embedded), then close and reopen the project. Since this all instances of the plugin will be loaded in recently selected mode. Saying that I don't know if it is desired behavior or some glitch. But helpful anyway.

Finally a question to devs or others who knows an answer: is it technically possible to embed the plugin GUI into its container, letting OS to scale plugin GUI (like for not-embeded ones).

with regards

EvilDragon · 01-08-2019, 03:46 AM

You cannot have per-plugin DPI awareness if they are hosted within Reaper's process, which is why bridging them (running them as dedicated processes) works. Embedding the GUI basically hosts the GUI part of the plugin in Reaper's process, so OS cannot scale it. Not sure if the host can do that, or is it feasible to implement if it can.

There's simply far too many plugins not supporting HiDPI that I don't think it's worth it to go HiDPI just yet. Of course, if music is not your main thing and you're doing, say, animation or video or graphics alongside, then I understand if you're on HiDPI.

Rather, I'd suggest having a non-HiDPI monitor which you'd use only for showing plugins at decent size... I'm using 2 monitors at 1920x1200, I'm not missing anything. Well, I could go with a 43" 4K multi-client monitor - but that one is not really HiDPI considering dot pitch etc.

woodslanding · 12-05-2019, 01:42 PM

According to this page:

https://www.waves.com/support/waves-...on-4k-displays

Waves plugins do scale correctly for most hosts. Reaper is on the list that don't, and V6 does not seem to have improved this.

I realize supporting all plugin developers may be impractical, and I have no idea what the waves support entails, but it's a significant developer by any standard, I think.

dub3000 · 09-11-2020, 05:00 PM

Wondering if there's been any progress on this front?
I have a 4k, 32" screen on Windows that I run at 200%, and it's a nightmare to use Waves, NI plugs or older plugins on these.

Yeah I know the plugin companies need to fix this years ago but still.

There's no way to let plugins render to a fake surface and scale it up somehow? I guess input management might make that hard.

dub3000 · 03-12-2021, 03:27 PM

waves plugins finally got a bulk hidpi update and are usable now

kontakt is still garbage at 4k :-(

kirk1701 · 03-12-2021, 04:33 PM

I'm using a 32" 1080p tv as a monitor, but I still can't get the Kontakt GUI to behave. I'm not sure if I need to turn off HiDPI awareness in prefs or not?

valy · 03-12-2021, 11:14 PM

For my 55" 4k I found it best to turn off HiDPI altogether and run Windows at 160% scaling (I actually had it at 182% for a long time, but recently dropped it to get a bit more space).

At the distance I sit from the monitor, I don't notice much blurring. Not saying it doesn't exist, but I'm reasonably far away so I can't tell.

Softsynth · 03-13-2021, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

I'm using a 32" 1080p tv as a monitor, but I still can't get the Kontakt GUI to behave. I'm not sure if I need to turn off HiDPI awareness in prefs or not?

Presuming you use Windows scaling at 100%.

You should leave HiDPI awareness alone, it's nothing to do with 1080p displays. Leave at standard settings.
A 32" 1080p is a low DPI display today.
Or are you using multiple displays, such as TV and laptop?
What is the Kontakt GUI doing wrong for you?

kirk1701 · 03-13-2021, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softsynth

Presuming you use Windows scaling at 100%.

You should leave HiDPI awareness alone, it's nothing to do with 1080p displays. Leave at standard settings.
A 32" 1080p is a low DPI display today.
Or are you using multiple displays, such as TV and laptop?
What is the Kontakt GUI doing wrong for you?

I find 1080p to be perfectly adequate. Anything higher gives me a headache.

No multiple displays. Straight from my PC via VGA.

Kontakt GUI isn't resizing to the window correctly.

Softsynth · 03-14-2021, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

I find 1080p to be perfectly adequate. Anything higher gives me a headache.

No multiple displays. Straight from my PC via VGA.

Kontakt GUI isn't resizing to the window correctly.

A 1080p display with 100% Windows 10 scaling should have no problems at all, that's the most common resolution!
It's nothing to do with high DPI at all.

Or are you saying its actually a 4K screen downscaling to 1080p?

If you have the potential to use HDMI or DVI I suggest you switch to that.
You can get a a DVI to HDMI adapter for next to nothing. The picture will be much better.

kirk1701 · 03-14-2021, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softsynth

A 1080p display with 100% Windows 10 scaling should have no problems at all, that's the most common resolution!
It's nothing to do with high DPI at all.

Or are you saying its actually a 4K screen downscaling to 1080p?

If you have the potential to use HDMI or DVI I suggest you switch to that.
You can get a a DVI to HDMI adapter for next to nothing. The picture will be much better.

No 4k downscaling. I do have DVI to HDMI adapter, but I have a bit of trouble getting it working. I'll try again.

Softsynth · 03-14-2021, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

No 4k downscaling. I do have DVI to HDMI adapter, but I have a bit of trouble getting it working. I'll try again.

Really?
I only mean a passive physical connector.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/TechRise-2-...24729997&psc=1

kirk1701 · 03-15-2021, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softsynth

Really?
I only mean a passive physical connector.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/TechRise-2-...24729997&psc=1

It works fine if I didn't also have my Roku on a separate HDMI input. It's fine. I got it all sorted.

Softsynth · 03-15-2021, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

It works fine if I didn't also have my Roku on a separate HDMI input. It's fine. I got it all sorted.

You've solved your Kontakt GUI issue?

kirk1701 · 03-15-2021, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softsynth

You've solved your Kontakt GUI issue?

Seemingly. It's intermittent. I turned off Windows auto-fix for blurry apps, which may have been interfering. There's a bug somewhere in Windows or Kontakt.

dug dog · 03-15-2021, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

Seemingly. It's intermittent. I turned off Windows auto-fix for blurry apps, which may have been interfering. There's a bug somewhere in Windows or Kontakt.

Oh... my....
How I'd love to hear The Captain speak those words.....

kirk1701 · 03-15-2021, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dug dog

Oh... my....
How I'd love to hear The Captain speak those words.....

https://media1.giphy.com/media/ifMyw...HhoU/giphy.gif

dub3000 · 03-15-2021, 08:24 PM

i mean, this is how the latest kontakt appears on my setup, including (brand new) visual glitches in the instrument selector:

it's tiny and broken and bad :-(

Softsynth · 03-16-2021, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

..I turned off Windows auto-fix for blurry apps, which may have been interfering. There's a bug somewhere in Windows or Kontakt.

"Auto fix for blurry apps"?
Could you clarify that statement?

Are you running Windows scaling at more than 100% even on a 32 inch 1080p screen?

I'm trying to work out how on earth you ended up with the blurry image, or what blurry actually means to you.

I can say that certain GUI graphics look dull when pixels are so large. Bright brass and other gleaming metallic images look dull on displays with low pixel DPI when viewed at close range. For instance a Kontakt saxophone vst I have looks dull as dishwater when viewed on an older low resolution panel, and yet it looks smaller but more shiny on higher resolution screen, like real metal instead of a dull matt oil paint. It's a reminder of the difference between the old so-called standard definition TV and HD. If you saw the BBC Proms in HD all the brass was gleaming, back on standard definition it looked dull, desperately in need of some brasso!

kirk1701 · 03-16-2021, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softsynth

"Auto fix for blurry apps"?
Could you clarify that statement?

Are you running Windows scaling at more than 100% even on a 32 inch 1080p screen?

I'm trying to work out how on earth you ended up with the blurry image, or what blurry actually means to you.

I can say that certain GUI graphics look dull when pixels are so large. Bright brass and other gleaming metallic images look dull on displays with low pixel DPI when viewed at close range. For instance a Kontakt saxophone vst I have looks dull as dishwater when viewed on an older low resolution panel, and yet it looks smaller but more shiny on higher resolution screen, like real metal instead of a dull matt oil paint. It's a reminder of the difference between the old so-called standard definition TV and HD. If you saw the BBC Proms in HD all the brass was gleaming, back on standard definition it looked dull, desperately in need of some brasso!

I'm not having blurry app probs. Under "advanced scaling," Windows has "allow Windows to fix blurry apps." This I switched off.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1599...w?usp=drivesdk

Softsynth · 03-16-2021, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

I'm not having blurry app probs. Under "advanced scaling," Windows has "allow Windows to fix blurry apps." This I switched off.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1599...w?usp=drivesdk

This page describes all the circumstances in which you might have had blurry apps:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...5-cb169b51de0f

kirk1701 · 03-16-2021, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softsynth

This page describes all the circumstances in which you might have had blurry apps:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...5-cb169b51de0f

What part of "I'M NOT HAVING BLURRY APPS" aren't you getting?

Softsynth · 03-16-2021, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

Seemingly. It's intermittent. I turned off Windows auto-fix for blurry apps, which may have been interfering. There's a bug somewhere in Windows or Kontakt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

What part of "I'M NOT HAVING BLURRY APPS" aren't you getting?

I was curious as to how you had a problem to cure with a single 1080p display, that's all. Seems like I got the wrong end of the stick.

kirk1701 · 03-16-2021, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softsynth

I was curious as to how you had a problem to cure with a single 1080p display, that's all. Seems like I got the wrong end of the stick.

I was having Kontakt UI scaling issues. Running full 1080p makes the icons so tiny, they're impossible to read. (I seem to recall discussing this a few months back and the answer being a graphics card mismatch or something.)

I switched off Windows app fix option because I didn't want it fiddling with my display unnecessarily. That may have been a placebo, but I'll take it.

This was already covered in a thread I've accidentally hijacked.

Softsynth · 03-16-2021, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

I was having Kontakt UI scaling issues. Running full 1080p makes the icons so tiny, they're impossible to read. (I seem to recall discussing this a few months back and the answer being a graphics card mismatch or something.)

I switched off Windows app fix option because I didn't want it fiddling with my display unnecessarily. That may have been a placebo, but I'll take it.

This was already covered in a thread I've accidentally hijacked.

Okay, I guess you must be sitting a long way from the screen then.

kirk1701 · 03-16-2021, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softsynth

Okay, I guess you must be sitting a long way from the screen then.

Not really, a meter maybe.

Softsynth · 03-17-2021, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

Not really, a meter maybe.

Oh okay. You prefer or require your pixels big and chunky then.

kirk1701 · 03-17-2021, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softsynth

Oh okay. You prefer or require your pixels big and chunky then.

See now I think you're laughing at me. That's fun.

Softsynth · 03-17-2021, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

See now I think you're laughing at me. That's fun.

No not at all.

Now if you had tribbles that would be another matter!

kirk1701 · 03-17-2021, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Softsynth

No not at all.

Now if you had tribbles that would be another matter!

Some days...

Softsynth · 03-17-2021, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirk1701

Some days...

You feel the weight of all the worlds tribbles is on your shoulders Jim.