Old 11-21-2017, 11:04 AM   #41
spottydog10
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 90
Default

I actually am a professional player and have been for a while. When I'm in paid time in the studio all I really have to do is turn up and play- the sound is taken care of. When I'm doing my own projects I'm limited in various ways not least in studio equipment and expertise. Seeing all this stuff being done over a period of time, you think "How hard can it be?" Turns out, pretty difficult!

I've certainly got decent results myself but quite frequently there will be stuff like this guitar that just isn't right. This where help from places like this is invaluable for ideas that will hopefully get me to a solution and it is much appreciated.

Benk-msx I have a cheapo ribbon mic but I find it very dull and just cant get a decent sound out of it.
spottydog10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 11:13 AM   #42
BenK-msx
Human being with feelings
 
BenK-msx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 3,797
Default

they are a bit dull but are also clever in that they take a shed load of eq nicely, high boost doesn't add the harsh you would with a condensor. also you often need to remove some of the low mids to clear things up.

i like it on voice, instant old school, and found an odd mic position where guitar and voice balanced nicely with one mic (sort of a holy grail constant search!),
uh if anyone is interested its just behind headstock pointing towards where neck meets body - still get the guitar but is roomy but voice is strong n warm and upfront.

great on anything with a hint of harsh and less transient important in its nature imo. brass/vocal/bass/amps/o-heads maybe Ac guitar least suited but is a taste thing.
BenK-msx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 11:21 AM   #43
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 19,927
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
I actually am a professional player and have been for a while.
I sort of figured because though the guitar sound isn't perfect - as I previously eluded, it's better than what I normally expect from a newbie.

Quote:
Seeing all this stuff being done over a period of time, you think "How hard can it be?" Turns out, pretty difficult!
hehe, there can be a lot of moving parts and things to pay attention to - getting it right at the source is the most important one and mistakes made early can really cause trouble further into the process.

Quote:
I have a cheapo ribbon mic but I find it very dull and just cant get a decent sound out of it.
Correct, that's what ribbons do by design, they can sound very natural depending on what is needed but they will be quite a bit darker than most other designs.
__________________
Choosing to play the simpler part instead of the fancier one, takes a lot of courage
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 12:47 PM   #44
spottydog10
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 90
Default

I found an old SM58 in the bottom of me draw (needed a good clean...)
This is what it sounds like. One take pointing between 12th fret and sound hole about 8 inches distance, one take from my listening position about ear height .

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acsm58front
https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acsm58above
spottydog10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 03:10 PM   #45
BenK-msx
Human being with feelings
 
BenK-msx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 3,797
Default

hmm seems to me you & your guitar are making that unpleasant 5-6k fizzing (in that mic position) and you are dutifully recording it.

tried other mic position tweaks? tho your ear height one still exhibits the problem a bit so thats what made me think its likely to be the source.

8 inches may just be a bit too close for those strummy transients & its a bit too much. it could perhaps be a levels/input chain thing, but we know nothing of your chain so assume its clean. that could be tested with another guitar/source to see how its 5-6k is captured.

otherwise put that martin on the table and test for anything out of whack.

Last edited by BenK-msx; 11-21-2017 at 03:16 PM. Reason: i needed a 3db boost
BenK-msx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 03:13 PM   #46
dug dog
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: With Elvis Watching The Deflectives
Posts: 494
Default

Interesting.

I've always wondered about putting a mic somewhere near my head so that the mic hears what me ears hears.
dug dog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 03:45 PM   #47
RDBOIS
Human being with feelings
 
RDBOIS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: It changes
Posts: 513
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dug dog View Post
Interesting.

I've always wondered about putting a mic somewhere near my head so that the mic hears what me ears hears.
I tried that! It didn't translate well. Perhaps because we have two ears and they are not directly pointing at the guitar, pick up room reflections, and so on?
RDBOIS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 03:59 PM   #48
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 19,927
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
I found an old SM58 in the bottom of me draw (needed a good clean...)
This is what it sounds like. One take pointing between 12th fret and sound hole about 8 inches distance, one take from my listening position about ear height .

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acsm58front
https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acsm58above
They are a tad warmer than the LDC (expected) but I think it's still down to what you like and what fits the mix. I'm sitting here listening to AC+Kit sample and man does it remind me of when I first began multitracking (I think I have some old test with similar chords and instrumentation LOL).

Since you are sort of in testing mode, I think you should semi-finish a tune, give it a basic mix and see how the various guitar recording techniques you've tried sound in context. Everything is about context, did I mention context?
__________________
Choosing to play the simpler part instead of the fancier one, takes a lot of courage
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 05:27 PM   #49
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 10,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
They are a tad warmer than the LDC (expected) but I think it's still down to what you like and what fits the mix. I'm sitting here listening to AC+Kit sample and man does it remind me of when I first began multitracking (I think I have some old test with similar chords and instrumentation LOL).
Well, I DLed the cut with the 57 and I also got the very first cut spottydog10 posted on his first post.

In my control room that first cut is so much better then the one with the 57. The first one has a good full body open sound while the 57 sounds tight and rather muddy.

Also the 57 cut has some drastic things going on in the high end, I had to cut it -15dB with a high shelf at 5K.

With the original one all I did was add a sight amount of band at 810hz and 2Khz.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums
Elk Videos->Opening / Snooze / Bull Fight / End Credits
Tod's Music->Check out my playlist
Tod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 05:54 PM   #50
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 19,927
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Well, I DLed the cut with the 57 and I also got the very first cut spottydog10 posted on his first post.

In my control room that first cut is so much better then the one with the 57. The first one has a good full body open sound while the 57 sounds tight and rather muddy.

Also the 57 cut has some drastic things going on in the high end, I had to cut it -15dB with a high shelf at 5K.

With the original one all I did was add a sight amount of band at 810hz and 2Khz.
Hit Tod... I admit I was listening on cheap headphones at work and only noticed the lack of brightness or extra low end, whatever it was - I trust you so thanks for the info. I hope I wasn't being confusing about my reference to my first multitracks - those weren't about the '57, just the realization that we can't always trust what sounds good soloed or isolated.
__________________
Choosing to play the simpler part instead of the fancier one, takes a lot of courage
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 06:02 PM   #51
spottydog10
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 90
Default

Haha, now I'm totally confused.
Tomorrow I'll use a different guitar and see what the verdict is but I do like the Martin. I have a nice woody sounding Washburn from the 80's but I don't feel it has the right warmth.
Here's another thought: I changed the original Martin bridge to bone a few weeks ago
I could bung the old one back on.

karbomusic:
"I'm sitting here listening to AC+Kit sample and man does it remind me of when I first began multitracking"
Can you expand on that, it interests me.

Speaking of context, verse 1 is going to be only guitar and vocal which is why I'm being strict on the sound, I'm after warm and organic, not bright and tinny, at least for that part of the track.
Thank you all
spottydog10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 06:35 PM   #52
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 19,927
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
karbomusic:
"I'm sitting here listening to AC+Kit sample and man does it remind me of when I first began multitracking"
Can you expand on that, it interests me.
There was this transition point in the mid to late 90s where I wanted to record more and gig less, left the world of cassette 4-track I had been toying with and entered the digital world of multi-tracking.

Most of those years consisted of just learning how to record via testing. I would typically write "faux songs", usually instrumental just to test/practice playing/recording different instruments I had purchased + drum machines etc. My roommate was a drummer so I could practice micing and recording his drums whenever I wanted and so on...

That experience really taught me an awful lot about what works, what doesn't, what things fit sonically or don't and how counterintuitive things can seem when you start cramming multiple sounds onto disk/tape so that they sound good coming back out of the speakers. It's also where I learned that the composition/orchestration was typically of utmost importance because if done well, those same sonics tend to more likely to take care of themselves.

Anyway, that clip you posted reminded me of the beginnings of one of those test songs I did during that time. I ended up having hundreds as the years passed. some ended up as full tunes - the project I'm doing right now with my band, one of the songs is comprised of pieces from 3 of those test tunes from way back when now that I think about it.
__________________
Choosing to play the simpler part instead of the fancier one, takes a lot of courage

Last edited by karbomusic; 11-21-2017 at 06:40 PM.
karbomusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 07:18 PM   #53
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 10,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Hit Tod... I admit I was listening on cheap headphones at work and only noticed the lack of brightness or extra low end, whatever it was - I trust you so thanks for the info. I hope I wasn't being confusing about my reference to my first multitracks - those weren't about the '57, just the realization that we can't always trust what sounds good soloed or isolated.
Hey my friend, I wan't referencing or contradicting anything you said. Actually I thought I was agreeing with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
Speaking of context, verse 1 is going to be only guitar and vocal which is why I'm being strict on the sound, I'm after warm and organic, not bright and tinny, at least for that part of the track.
I think the cut you posted in your original post is actually pretty excellent. If I was you, I'd use the same configuration except add another condenser, somewhere behind the players head pointed at the back bridge. Maybe 2.5, 3, or 4 feet from the bridge.

Actually a good way to position that 2nd mic would be to move your head around the guitar while it's being played. I know of a lot of audio engineers who will do that. Of course if you're the player, that's rather difficult.

There's nothing better then a well recorded stereo acoustic guitar, especially a Martin.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums
Elk Videos->Opening / Snooze / Bull Fight / End Credits
Tod's Music->Check out my playlist
Tod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 07:52 PM   #54
Lowell Mather 5150
Human being with feelings
 
Lowell Mather 5150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 293
Default

I gotta agree with yep on this one: not only did I think it sounded a bit Piezo at first listen, I thought it sounded like it was played from a sample library (no offense). I am definitely in the minority, but I like a good piezo sound. Well, this isn't applicable here, but piezo or not (which op already said is a condenser), I definitely don't like the tone here - to me sounds like it's through a cocked wah, which is just due to the mic pos obviously. That doesn't mean much in a mix though, this clip may very well fit in a given mix.

Nevertheless, here are some links to different renders for OP to check out:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/70jlbsbk8q6kgha/4A.wav?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/inje234n9f...%20SS.wav?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/totf7habi8dve1y/TA.wav?dl=0
Lowell Mather 5150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2017, 11:11 PM   #55
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 10,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell Mather 5150 View Post
I gotta agree with yep on this one: not only did I think it sounded a bit Piezo at first listen, I thought it sounded like it was played from a sample library (no offense). I am definitely in the minority, but I like a good piezo sound. Well, this isn't applicable here, but piezo or not (which op already said is a condenser), I definitely don't like the tone here - to me sounds like it's through a cocked wah, which is just due to the mic pos obviously. That doesn't mean much in a mix though, this clip may very well fit in a given mix.

Nevertheless, here are some links to different renders for OP to check out:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/70jlbsbk8q6kgha/4A.wav?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/inje234n9f...%20SS.wav?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/totf7habi8dve1y/TA.wav?dl=0
Those sound pretty good, much better Lowell, I see you took care of the high end problems and also took some of the mud out of it.

It's too bad spottydog10 didn't post the one with the condenser like he did the one with the 57. Heh heh the one with the 57 is 32bit. I recorded the one with the condenser from his Soundcloud link.

I still think the one with the condenser sounds every bit as good, it has more of an open sound. It doesn't have as much bottom but that can easily be dialed in. Heh heh, maybe it's just my old ears.

If I have time tomorrow, I'll see if I can post the condenser one with it setup better.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums
Elk Videos->Opening / Snooze / Bull Fight / End Credits
Tod's Music->Check out my playlist
Tod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2017, 12:04 AM   #56
hopi
Human being with feelings
 
hopi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 12,507
Default

2 cents worth... IMO the third one lowell posted is the one I'd use

just me of course
__________________
...should be fixed for the next build... http://tinyurl.com/cr7o7yl
https://soundcloud.com/hopikiva/angel-rain
hopi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2017, 11:36 AM   #57
spottydog10
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 90
Default

Thanks Lowell, I was interested in hearing what you did.
It's made me think more that I need to rethink the part and re record.
I cant do anything until next Thurs I reckon although I could try a couple of trials at home.

Thanks hopi

Last edited by spottydog10; 11-22-2017 at 11:49 AM.
spottydog10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2017, 11:52 AM   #58
Jimmy James
Human being with feelings
 
Jimmy James's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
Can anyone give some feedback and suggestions on this AC guitar sound.
I find it a bit fizzy but if I pull back anywhere in the 1-4k area it sounds dull and lifeless.
It's recorded with a large condenser mic, tried at various postions. This one is 8 inches from the 12 fret. It's a nice Martin and the instrument sounds fine in real life.
Any help appreciated.

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/actest
I tell ya, acoustic can be tricky. Having a Martin helps though. But I tell ya, where you have the condenser Mic at, is where I drop q 57 at. I love using a 57 aimed at a angle at the neck and body joint.
Then I drop a condenser on the body side or a ribbon Mic. I actually prefer the GLS es57 or the sure 57. And they are dirt cheap and sound so much better.
If you don't have a 57 style Mic, borrow one. Ask for a GLD es57 for xmas. Neck, get the 3 pack deal for 90 bucks.

If you can only have the condenser, as a last resort. Drop a di line and use it as a blend. You can compress, up, and reverb it. Then blend a touch in for some width and air. Ads to the attack as well.
Doing this can also make it sound like cheap real fast too.

I think you have a good sound as is though. The es57 will gets heap of use for lots of stuff.
Jimmy James is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2017, 01:17 PM   #59
Lowell Mather 5150
Human being with feelings
 
Lowell Mather 5150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
Thanks Lowell, I was interested in hearing what you did.
It's made me think more that I need to rethink the part and re record.
I cant do anything until next Thurs I reckon although I could try a couple of trials at home.

Thanks hopi
I applied some of the acoustic modules in the ACT input of Peavey Revalver 4.
Lowell Mather 5150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2017, 01:19 PM   #60
Lowell Mather 5150
Human being with feelings
 
Lowell Mather 5150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 293
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Those sound pretty good, much better Lowell, I see you took care of the high end problems and also took some of the mud out of it.

It's too bad spottydog10 didn't post the one with the condenser like he did the one with the 57. Heh heh the one with the 57 is 32bit. I recorded the one with the condenser from his Soundcloud link.

I still think the one with the condenser sounds every bit as good, it has more of an open sound. It doesn't have as much bottom but that can easily be dialed in. Heh heh, maybe it's just my old ears.

If I have time tomorrow, I'll see if I can post the condenser one with it setup better.
Thanks, Tod, wish I could take some credit, but that is all Peavey Revalver 4 ACT input using different acoustics.
Lowell Mather 5150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 11:00 AM   #61
spottydog10
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 90
Default

To Add to the confusion I recorded (at home)a stereo spread.
When I listen to the individual mics they sound exactly the same to me except for a slight difference in volume. They are panned hard left and right during recording.????

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acstereoleftneck
https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acstereorightbody

Last edited by spottydog10; 11-25-2017 at 11:07 AM.
spottydog10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 01:05 PM   #62
hopi
Human being with feelings
 
hopi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 12,507
Default

they sound the same to me also... both sound good though...

don't know what the mic's are, and can only think if you want some other diff in sound it would likely be more extreme mic positions?
__________________
...should be fixed for the next build... http://tinyurl.com/cr7o7yl
https://soundcloud.com/hopikiva/angel-rain
hopi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 03:38 PM   #63
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 10,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
To Add to the confusion I recorded (at home)a stereo spread.
When I listen to the individual mics they sound exactly the same to me except for a slight difference in volume. They are panned hard left and right during recording.????

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acstereoleftneck
https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acstereorightbody
Yeah they sound pretty good, but they don't really sound like stereo. What happens when you solo the MASTER?
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums
Elk Videos->Opening / Snooze / Bull Fight / End Credits
Tod's Music->Check out my playlist
Tod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 06:15 PM   #64
sjs94704
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 197
Default Setting up my account here on this site - How Do I?

I notice that many peole when I see their replies, at the very bottom there is like what I will call a 'Tag Line' that goes at the bottom of every post.

I was wondering if someone can point out where to go to put mine on my account?

I would be grateful for your reply.

Please be specific about step-by-step instruction help me best.
sjs94704 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 06:49 PM   #65
hopi
Human being with feelings
 
hopi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 12,507
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
I notice that many peole when I see their replies, at the very bottom there is like what I will call a 'Tag Line' that goes at the bottom of every post.

I was wondering if someone can point out where to go to put mine on my account?

I would be grateful for your reply.

Please be specific about step-by-step instruction help me best.
sure go to your User CP then into your personal settings and you can add a 'signature' and other stuff like url's, etc.
__________________
...should be fixed for the next build... http://tinyurl.com/cr7o7yl
https://soundcloud.com/hopikiva/angel-rain
hopi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 07:50 PM   #66
RDBOIS
Human being with feelings
 
RDBOIS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: It changes
Posts: 513
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell Mather 5150 View Post
I applied some of the acoustic modules in the ACT input of Peavey Revalver 4.
Never heard of Peavey Revalver 4 before...

I'll say it now and then again later: THANK YOU !!!

Everybody, please take note of the following below:

You download the plugin for FREE. https://revalver.peavey.com/

I just spent the last hour trying it out. The plugin will let you demo everything, but add a beeeeep signal at random times. Sure, ok, it's all good.

However, and this is where the OMG kicks in, if you:

1) open the INPUT MIXER (click the button in the Input section) a window opens and you have three things, a VU Meter, a Tuner, and the ACT Input Shaper module.

2)Click on the Target Profile button in the ACT Input Shaper module to open a browser list of over 20+ type of guitars (acoustic, classical and electric) and basses; various sounds of modeled guitars being played with a pick, fingers, with various pickups selections. You can 'audition the sound' to listen to a short clip, or click the green play button that will shape the sound of your guitar sounds playing in a track in Reaper.

3) Play your guitar track in Reaper with a selected ACT guitar (making sure you clicked the green play button in ACT browser window), but don't shut the VST window (i.e. keep it floating). If you close it the ACT module will deactivate the modeled guitar sound, because it is a demo.

4) Make sure you guitar track is selected and go the the top menu bar in Reaper and select TRACK ---> RENDER ----> Render (mono or stereo, whatever you need).

DONE ~~ !!!

You will now have on a new track you guitar sound modulated by the modeled sound you chose in Peavey Revalver 4. Every single ACT Instrument Model is now yours 100% free .

This is the list of the guitar sounds you have for free, using the Render with floating plugin method: https://revalver.peavey.com/store/input

If that is not enough, which is friggin awesome, you can do the same thing once you click the button in the Output window. This will open a window with an EQ, Compressor, and the ACT OUTPUT SHAPER ---> with Target sounds for amps like Clean, Distortion, Crunsh, Heavy, Metal. Same gig, RENDER your track while keeping the plugin floating...

Perhaps you already have a virtual guitar amp setup with many modeled guitar sound shapers, that comes with EQ and compression? I didn't, so this is a BIG DEAL. The stomp effect can't be Rendered (because of the demo beeeeep), but it's not a biggy, I already have reverb, delay, and other such VSTs.

Check it out. From what I've dabbled with so far, I really liked some of the acoustic sounds of the modeled guitars and the Brazilian classical guitar (finger played). Can't wait to try it on my electric guitar tracks and the bass.

Woah. This really has made my day!

THANK YOU !!!


[edit: I was wondering how I could get both benefits of the INPUT and OUTPUT mixer features together -seeing that if you close window browsers of the plugin it the effects become deactivated. Well... easy peasy, just add another instant of the plugin in the FX chain. Run one vst for input and the other vst for output. This way you can a) choose a modeled electric guitar AND then add the distortion, EQ, etc.

Last edited by RDBOIS; 11-25-2017 at 08:22 PM.
RDBOIS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 08:52 PM   #67
yep
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,980
Default

Sorry late to reply. Lot of stuff going on in this thread.

My request to post a sample with an SM57 or 58 was not because those are my favorite mics for acoustic guitar, only because they are commonplace mics that might provide clues as to the problem.

That said, a lot of people here are seriously underrating the SM57/58, which is a great mic. In my studio, we have multi-kilobuck mics from the likes of Neumann, Gefell, Schoeps, AKG, etc. My desert-island mic, if I could only pick one to use on everything, is probably an SM57. It's just a great mic that sounds pretty much like whatever you point it at, without picking up much of what it's not pointed at, and it has a kind of magical sensitivity that seems to prefer signal to noise. Like the NS10 monitor, it does its best work in the mids, but if I have to pick with a gun to my head, the mids are where most records matter most. That said, it's not my favorite mic for acoustic guitar, just a common example (but it can absolutely get killer acoustic guitar recordings).

That out of the way, I am still hearing some of that same ugliness with the SM58 recordings, except less, because less highs. Now, I am listening on cheap earbuds in an airport, instead of on $10,000 monitors in a treated control room, but my guess is that even on the Barefoots I would still be unhappy with this sound.

So, somewhere we have a problem with something other than the mic. Maybe it's the pick, or the strings. Maybe the preamps or converters. Maybe some digital processor. I don't know, but it still has this piezo-sounding peakiness to me.

I'm not talking about needing a U87 and Neve preamps, I think a good player can get a pretty good acoustic guitar sound with a walmart guitar and pretty cheap mics and preamps. Something in these recordings sounds like it's been through an extra layer of cheapification, and I don't know what it is. Did OP specify preamps/converters/settings?

One thought: OP, if you are recording acoustic guitar with the level peaking just below 0dB on your digital meters, don't. Record with the peaks around -10, average signal around -20 or so. Even if your converters aren't clipping, you might be way over-working a cheap analog front-end.
yep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2017, 09:26 PM   #68
spottydog10
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 90
Default

Yep, I agree there is nastiness in the clips I have posted, trying to figure this bugger out.

The last clips uploaded I did at home, mics were, Neck:Rode NT1a thru presonus channel, slight compression and no eq. Body: Studio Projects B1 thru a cheap mixer with no eq, both ending up thru the soundcard, Emu 0404. No post processing. Spread was about 4 feet left and right and 4 feet distance.

I will get back into my little studio next week and try again.The main mixer is a Mackie onyx going thru firewire to the PC and I try and keep the signal on the low side with no eq or effects.

I have a feeling that my playing could be causing some of the issues and a different approach may help. To that end I have use different gauge strings and thicker picks than I normally use. I have tried playing with fingers but it isn't as fluid. Maybe the part itself is just not the right one but playing it without recording it sounds fine to me, rich and powerful. When I play it back it's pretty disappointing. Any suggestions I'm happy to have a go at
spottydog10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2017, 07:20 PM   #69
yep
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,980
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
...The last clips uploaded I did at home, mics were, Neck:Rode NT1a thru presonus channel, slight compression and no eq. Body: Studio Projects B1 thru a cheap mixer with no eq, both ending up thru the soundcard, Emu 0404. No post processing. Spread was about 4 feet left and right and 4 feet distance...
Can you isolate those?

You have a lot of prosumer-type gear listed in those signal chains, and it's hard to tell what might be the culprit.
yep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 07:33 AM   #70
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 16,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDBOIS View Post
Never heard of Peavey Revalver 4 before...

I'll say it now and then again later: THANK YOU !!!
My secret is out! Been using this, plus Kuassa Vermilion as my primary guitar amp sims etc for a long time. Revalver since version 2!
You see very little comment on Revalver but it really has developed into an excellent tool.

Er I suppose I should say that I also used S-Gear2, but it seems to be getting less and less use these days.
__________________
UK and USA: Our leaders MAY be buffoons but they are still dangerous buffoons.
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 11:40 AM   #71
vanceen
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 16
Default

When you play acoustic guitar, you're not just playing the guitar. You're playing the space you're sitting in. If you're in an acoustically good room, the experience includes the reflections of the guitar's sound from all the surfaces in the room back to your ears, with different fundamental frequencies and harmonics bouncing around differently. Take that guitar into a different room and its sounds very different.

Recording is another thing. If you're used to sitting in a live room playing, you will miss all the reflections, even if you don't know that's what you're missing. It just doesn't sound "right".

The important question is "how does the acoustic guitar fit into my recording?"

If you're recording a solo, you will want to try to capture the room reflections in stereo, or at least put a convolution reverb on the recording to give it some life.

If you're using the guitar as a rhythm part, all those reflections don't matter much; in fact, you'll probably want a highpass filter set to cut out most of the bass. It will sound bad when solo'd, but it can sound fantastic in the mix.

If you're recording something built around a guitar part and a vocal, you will go somewhere in the middle of these two approaches.

In general, different things matter when recording an instrument that when playing it, especially playing it alone. When I'm playing my electric guitars, I use vintage tube amps and get very picky about the tubes and the speakers. If I'm recording them, I put a ribbon mic and an SM-57 on the cabinet and try to get a sound pretty close to what I want to hear in the recording. But it will always sound a little lifeless and sterile compared to playing alone in a room with a really good amp. And I guarantee you won't be able to tell what kind of tubes you're using.
vanceen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 11:46 AM   #72
spottydog10
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 90
Default

Yep, 3 different mics in mono , all 8 inches from the 12 fret, no eq or comp into the Mackie Onyx.

https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acmonose-2200a2
https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acmonorodent1a
https://soundcloud.com/user-274522463/acmonose5
spottydog10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 12:40 PM   #73
vanceen
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 16
Default

The choice of guitar can make a huge difference too, sometimes in ways you don't expect.

My Martin 000-18SM, the cheapest Martin I own by a good distance, sounds much better than my '72 D35 or my '04 Custom OM-28V on recordings. The 000 has got mahogany back and sides as opposed to the rosewood on the other two, plus a different body shape from the the OM (and obviously the dreadnought), because the neck meets the body at the 12th fret.

The rosewood guitars sound much better for sitting around playing, but on recordings the 000 comes through with every string clearly articulated.
vanceen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 02:00 PM   #74
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 10,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
The second seems to have more bottom which I think make the 1st and 3rd sound a little brighter. There's a clear distinction between the three, but I wouldn't say any of them sound bad.
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums
Elk Videos->Opening / Snooze / Bull Fight / End Credits
Tod's Music->Check out my playlist
Tod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2017, 02:20 PM   #75
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 10,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanceen View Post
If you're recording a solo, you will want to try to capture the room reflections in stereo, or at least put a convolution reverb on the recording to give it some life.
I've got an old Yamaha Acoustic guitar I bought in the mid 60s, it's no good for rhythm unless it's a jazzy type style. But I really like how it sounds for playing leads.

I use an Audia Technica lapel condenser mic attached with a clip to the hole on the Yamaha.



This is a song I used it on recently, it's a song I produced that was written and sang by Tom Harris about a friend who died back in the 80s.

https://soundcloud.com/tod-904566455...iend-2/s-w1Bha
__________________
Kontakt Vid Tutorials->Create Outputs / Create Templates -|- SMDrums Free drums
Elk Videos->Opening / Snooze / Bull Fight / End Credits
Tod's Music->Check out my playlist
Tod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2017, 01:09 AM   #76
K. Kurgle
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
Thanks mate, I'll give the roll off a crack tomorrow.
I'm still unconvinced that the take is "the one" though - the guitar may need a bit more light and shade but keeping consistency as well.


hopi, feel free to download the wave file and have a mess with it

https://drive.google.com/open?id=19A...zuJ-uyGxvOGVu1


Hey (this is my first post) I thought I might EQ your original file a bit too, since the take was really good. Personally I would not see any need to record it again. Cheers!

Here's the link,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/170g...ew?usp=sharing
K. Kurgle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2017, 11:52 AM   #77
spottydog10
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 90
Default

Tod, nice guitar. I had a Fender acoustic a while back with a nice bright tone.

KK, they are short test recordings, the original stereo recording is up earlier in the post somewhere. When I talk about "the one" I meant changing the part to something different, my bad explanation
spottydog10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2017, 12:20 PM   #78
K. Kurgle
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
Tod, nice guitar. I had a Fender acoustic a while back with a nice bright tone.

KK, they are short test recordings, the original stereo recording is up earlier in the post somewhere. When I talk about "the one" I meant changing the part to something different, my bad explanation
Ok. I think I missed that post and didn't pay enough attention, my bad, but a nice song anyway and that's what matters! Cheers!
K. Kurgle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.