Old 11-21-2017, 08:58 AM   #1
karhide
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This is pretty sad:

http://www.cakewalk.com/Gibson-Announcement
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:35 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by karhide View Post
Guess the lifetime updates that some folks paid for a while back have reached the end of their lifetime.

RIP Cake
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:40 AM   #3
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Man I knew it. I have some version of SONAR from right before they went to challenge response, and was offered the "lifetime" stuff. Didn't bite. Knew it was a bad sign.

Too bad. They were good guys.
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:45 AM   #4
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Cakewalk was my first DAW.
Bet there's an tremendous work behind Sonar.

Still have SonarX3 installed
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:52 AM   #5
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Man I knew it. I have some version of SONAR from right before they went to challenge response, and was offered the "lifetime" stuff. Didn't bite. Knew it was a bad sign.

Too bad. They were good guys.
I used Cakewalk when it was a DOS program that only did midi, and then later iterations dubbed "Cakewalk Audio" and "Pro Audio" which later became Sonar.

I switched to Reaper many years ago, prompted by a bug in Sonar that had existed across three or more versions, never being addressed, and finally hitting me and costing me hours worth of work.

Sad to see them ride off into the sunset, but I have to wonder if they had made the product rock solid, addressing bugs rather than globbing on more plugins and fluff, if things might have turned out differently. I might have still been a paying customer if they had gone that direction. :-/
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:52 AM   #6
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>>to better align with the company’s acquisition strategy that is heavily focused on growth in the global consumer electronics audio busines\<<

That right here is becoming epidemic. Not that CW had it's issues in being maybe not so hot of DAW. I always thought it behind REAPER, CUBASE, STUDIO ONE. But there is increasing trend toward abandoning anything that doesn't have the potential for huge returns. Hence the focus on "growth" and speculation over just a decent ROI (again, not sure if CW was profitable or not).

Check out this book if you want a more in depth picture of the industry and trends:
Throwing Rocks at the Google Bus: How Growth Became the Enemy of Prosperity Hardcover – March 1, 2016 by Douglas Rushkoff
https://www.amazon.com/Throwing-Rock.../dp/1617230170
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:55 AM   #7
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I sensed something was a bit off when the Cakewalk lead developer suddenly some time back appeared at the JUCE forum asking for a bug fix in JUCE. Maybe a new DAW already cooking in his mind?
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:55 AM   #8
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but I have to wonder if they had made the product rock solid, addressing bugs rather than globbing on more plugins and fluff
Same here. Kitchen sink approach and add a bunch of "Bundled" stuff.
Not to mention the "stuck in the windows world" GUI. A total mess.

I used to LOVE Project P5. But they killed that *years* ago.
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:56 AM   #9
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I sensed something was a bit off when the Cakewalk lead developer suddenly some time back appeared at the JUCE forum asking for a bug fix in JUCE. Maybe a new DAW already cooking in his mind?
That also ties in with Anderson(?) recently posting what would make DAWS better wouldn't it?
If that comes out of it - may not be a bad thing. I wasn't a big SONAR fan (owned it, abandoned it), and this may be the only way to "move on".
Will certainly piss off a lot of people though.

RE JUCE - maybe Gibson buying TRACKTION?!

Last edited by LCipher; 11-21-2017 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:00 AM   #10
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Roland buying Cakewalk back?
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:09 AM   #11
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This will be and interesting test case on how they handle users registration challenge / response activation in the future.
I remember voicing concern (when I used SONAR) about change from Serial NO to CR and was told I was over-reacting and dont worry they would have "plans in place". Lets see how this plays out.

Not that someone will want to use software forever after development stops, but will be interesting to see what they consider fair etc.

Not to mention all the third party "bundles" tied to SONAR only that are now useless for people transitioning to other daws.

What a mess.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:14 AM   #12
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Same here. Kitchen sink approach and add a bunch of "Bundled" stuff.
Not to mention the "stuck in the windows world" GUI. A total mess.

I used to LOVE Project P5. But they killed that *years* ago.
Interesting you should use the "kitchen" reference. When Cake moved from a very efficient NNTP text based forum to a shiny new and less efficient for reading web based forum, there was a revolt, and the lead programmer at the time "Ron Kuper" said that it was as if Cake was hosting a party and the NNTP folks were in the kitchen, refusing to come out to the main party.

There became a group of about half of their users known as "Kitchen Splitters" who took over the now all but abandoned "cakewalk.audio" useNET group, which existed due to a misconfiguration by cake that let their private corporate group leak out into the peer-to-peer world of useNET.

I even wrote a song titled Kitchen Splitters that was all my frustration with Cake wrapped up into one snappy little song.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:21 AM   #13
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Interesting you should use the "kitchen" reference
Priceless. Of course the continuous reference to the "bakers" was annoying as well.

I really do feel sorry for the customers and programmers. I think the company leadership never really figured out a way to evolve and figure out a way to get everyone pointed in the same direction. SONAR always seem like it was a building with addition after addition tacked on.

Kill P5? No problem, tack on matrix view.
Want notation, tack on the codebase from 20 years ago.
Better GUI? Large border "windows" and Win95 style tacked on.
Bundle after bundle - yearly "updates" etc.

Like one of those all you can eat buffets with everything from Chinese to Southern Fried Chicken.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:21 AM   #14
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I left Sonar not long ago (well never really left, still use it some), didn't like the redesign after 8.5. Decided to look at other DAWS, discovered that Reaper was working on a notation editor (a must for me), tried Reaper and have been here ever since. I did think the writing was on the wall with the lifetime updates thing. Looked suspiciously like a last ditch effort to get some badly needed cash. It is sad, though. It was a very good piece of software. Thank God for Reaper.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:36 AM   #15
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Thank God for Reaper.
When I first became aware of Reaper, along with it's extremely musician friendly pricing, I thought the name "Reaper" was like the "Grim Reaper" that was going after all the corporate suits who were only in it for the money.
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:37 PM   #16
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Good article here: http://cdm.link/2017/11/gibson-just-...ewalk-philips/
Gibson just killed Cakewalk, because Philips?!

Quote:
For pro music creation, of course, terrific alternatives abound on Windows, including software developed by independent companies, from Reaper to Renoise, FL Studio to Ableton Live. And it seems independence and longevity go hand in hand.
indeed
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:17 PM   #17
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I knew it. I bought lifetime updates last year (in december). I trusted on Cakewalk. I was talking to Seth Kellogg (cakewalk employee that manages Sonar through Steam), he was very happy about the new updates, new features, etc. 1 Year of updates.

But on Lifetime annoucement, they said lifetime pass will survive EVEN THEY ARE SOLD OR CHANGE THE NAME.

So i have hope. I heard a rumor about Tascam going to work with cakewalk regarding Sonar.

I'm using Reaper now because it's more stable and soft. I have an old PC.

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Old 11-21-2017, 01:27 PM   #18
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Kiss of death, Gibson buying anything in recent years...
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:54 PM   #19
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Yeah, that sucks.

And what sucks even more is announcements like this that end with a corporate self fellatio : "Gibson Brands is a global leader in bla bla bla".

Fuckers.

I'm glad Cockos is an independent company that Justin won't sell. He has already been burnt in the past by companies like Gibson.
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Old 11-21-2017, 05:22 PM   #20
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It's crazy man, just found this alluded to on the Cake 'deals' forum. I was just considering picking up the Sonar Home Studio today, then I read this. You guys think I should bother - it's not as if it's some huge monetary investment. What the hell, a nice piece of legacy software.

What will surprise me, is that if no one picks up Sonar. I can't speak to their market share, but Cake/Sonar was definitely one of the big names out there. Be a shame to see it go away.
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:43 PM   #21
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I was the exclusive U.S. Wholesale distributor for Cakewalk for several years (Joel Sampson MIDI Source). They were true pioneers and if you had a rack of MIDI gear could create music. Those were the DOS days. Greg and everyone else there was good to deal with. He was a good coder, although in love with Microsoft. I made a Cakewalk only version of my Instant Drum Patterns (under the Five Pin Press name) and they sold a bunch of them.

Gibson also bought my other major supplier, Music Quest MIDI interfaces and shut it down after a few months.
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:53 PM   #22
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Wow. I almost bought yet another version of sonar before deciding to try out reaper. (I remember when it was first introduced) and see how it had developed. As a long time user of cakewalk and then sonar, I'm very glad I made the jump, but sorry to hear the news for the Cakewalk folks.
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:13 AM   #23
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started with pro audio 9 on the atari... but can't say I did much with it

did cakewalk up through several Sonars... and it was painful...

went to cubase and liked it way better... until reaper got real

basically don't care to look back.... don't understand what the sadness is about.... personally would not care to use it even if it was free...

still I'd be curious to hear what I'm missing that 'you' like...
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Old 11-22-2017, 01:53 AM   #24
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Well, for me, Cakewalk, in quite a few of its forms, is something I grew up with, musically speaking.

I started MIDI only... I bought Cubasis Light and couldn't get my head around it for some reason... The MIDI editing was pretty much non-existent, as I remember.

Then for one of my PC builds I bought a "high end" soundblaster sound card, the one which came with an EMU daughter board, and with it came Cakewalk, by Twelve Tone Systems.

That was it, and I never looked back.

I think it is just a matter of what you get used to really.

My eldest son bought a sound card last year that had Ableton bundled with it. I thought, yeah, I must be able to show him some of the basics, but I totally struggled and gave up in the end.

The main reason I purchased Reaper back in 2015 was to try something else other than SONAR, just out of curiosity really, and it cost less than I would pay for most of my VSTs.

Reaper is probably the closest to SONAR, in terms of how I understand things... Okay, busses and other stuffs are a bit different, but easy to pick up new ways. And this is why I am having another go now, to insure I have a way forward once SONAR truly does go tits up.

That said, I haven't tried software such as Studio One, Digital Performer, Cubase and what have you...
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Old 11-22-2017, 06:23 AM   #25
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So glad I didnt bite when they announced the lifetime deal. I too saw that as the beginning of the end.

Saddest thing is that over the various ownerships, it seemed like finally nobody involved in the development and maintenance of \sonar was really invested in the product.

Ah, well - already dumped Studio One at Professiona 2.6 and Tracktion at version 4, so this is just the final nail in the coffin for me as far as non-Reaper DAWs are concerned, althougfh I did "accidentally" but Mixbus 32c very recently. Wouldnt really display that well on my one 23" 1920x1200 screen although that is supposedly within their minimum spec, no refund but they did give me a licence for MB4 as I already owned MB3, plus I get to keep the 32C licence in case I EVER GET A BIG ENOUGH MONITOR!(big hint to father Xmas here)
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:16 AM   #26
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don't understand what the sadness is about....
The sadness is about loss of community. Cakewalk was one of the first DAWS, and a damn good one, all the way through. Many people stayed with it from the days of floppy disks. And their forum is like a home away from home for their users. Although I've been using Reaper for a couple of years now, I'm on their forum several times a day. Even I am feeling a bit down about it. But lots of folks there are devastated. Comparing it being jilted by your lover, having your wife leave you. I really feel for them. I suspect that if the same thing happened here, most folks would feel the same. At least, the ones who are "human beings with feelings."
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:32 AM   #27
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:32 AM   #28
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Guess the lifetime updates that some folks paid for a while back have reached the end of their lifetime.

RIP Cake
At least Gibson has a Lifetime warranty for 10 years. I guess guitar lifetime is longer than daw lifetime?
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:35 AM   #29
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The sadness is about loss of community. Cakewalk was one of the first DAWS, and a damn good one, all the way through. Many people stayed with it from the days of floppy disks. And their forum is like a home away from home for their users. Although I've been using Reaper for a couple of years now, I'm on their forum several times a day. Even I am feeling a bit down about it. But lots of folks there are devastated. Comparing it being jilted by your lover, having your wife leave you. I really feel for them. I suspect that if the same thing happened here, most folks would feel the same. At least, the ones who are "human beings with feelings."
Cakewalk was my Alma mater. It's too bad that many Sonar folks who need a new DAW will try Reaper for an hour or two, not be able to instantly figure out that it's probably one of, if not the most powerful DAW available, and then go buy something else they can instantly make some sense of that offers far less capability. Reaper has a STEEP learning curve, but that's inherently due to the almost infinite possibilities it offers.
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:38 AM   #30
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At least Gibson has a Lifetime warranty for 10 years. I guess guitar lifetime is longer than daw lifetime?
I see a lot of folks on the Sonar forum who thought lifetime meant *their* lifetime. I always read it as "Sonar's" lifetime, and fully expected that Sonar would be retired for some new product name, thus ending the lifetime of product Sonar. I guess ending the company all together works for that too, and gets Gibson off the hook.
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:58 AM   #31
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When Queen Marie Antoinette said (supposedly) "Let them eat cake" she couldn't have known just how meaningful that would become ... could she?

I wonder if there is a reference in thingy's Almanac ...
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:06 PM   #32
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Henry Juskiewicz has always run Gibson as if he weren't interested in running a guitar company. He's pushed the company into a few high-tech disasters (Magick Ethernet guitars, the Firebird X, etc.) for which they're still paying. I hate to say it (since I once paid for Sonar myself), but the track record for supporting EOL'd products isn't great. Witness not only the Steinberger and OpCode EOL's but even support for year-old products.

1st generation Robot (self-tuning) guitars were heavily pushed, adding about $800 to guitar prices. When they started breaking a year later, customers were told that they had no parts in stock, and their best suggestion was to tune the guitar normally.
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:26 PM   #33
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Kinda wondered when (not if) this would happen, given Gibsons reputation these days. I feel very sorry for Noel and his team. Jumped ship around version 8 of Sonar - I never could get a stable environment and then, oddly, the thing that kind of catalysed my decision was playing with the (then new) step sequencer feature. I found that if you clicked a selected grid cell again, instead of behaving like every drum machine on the planet and clearing the pattern step, instead, nothing happened. The devs were baffled as to why I expected it to work that way. At that point I realised that the disconnect between the engineers and musicians had just become too insurmountable. Although Reaper at the time was fairly spartan it lacked one feature Cakewalk had in spades; crashes. Reaper just worked.
It'd be great to see the refugees from Sonar move to Reaper. I'm hoping it won't prove too challenging. Truth be told I didn't have any issues picking up the basics and Reaper's routing is for sure more intuitive (especially for MIDI) than Sonar. Now if you could just make free improvisation less clunky (i.e fit to improvisation as Sonar calls it) where the tempo grid warps automatically - yes, I know, it's doable in Reaper but not without some effort, it really is a key feature for working with non-EDM genres and should be painless. And keep plugging on with the scoring stuff - it's not bad, and certainly much better than Sonar's functionality which despite decades of pleading, they never touched.
Anyway, let's welcome everyone to the Reaper community. And I hope those talented folks find lucrative work elsewhere; these are specialised skills but perhaps plugin development or something?. Let's hope for the best...
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:27 PM   #34
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The sadness is about loss of community. Cakewalk was one of the first DAWS, and a damn good one, all the way through. Many people stayed with it from the days of floppy disks. And their forum is like a home away from home for their users. Although I've been using Reaper for a couple of years now, I'm on their forum several times a day. Even I am feeling a bit down about it. But lots of folks there are devastated. Comparing it being jilted by your lover, having your wife leave you. I really feel for them. I suspect that if the same thing happened here, most folks would feel the same. At least, the ones who are "human beings with feelings."
Very well put. I agree with you totally. I started using Cakewalk in the DOS days and graduated to Pro Audio ver 9 as my first DAW. Then jumped ship to hard disk recorders from Roland who then bought Cakewalk which at the time sounded great. I finally stumbled upon Reaper when I was trying use all my recorded tracks from the VS-880's & VS-1680's. Reaper was the answer! I also owned Sonar X3 producer but only used it sparingly. It's a sad, sad day.
I still use Cakewalk for midi all the time for live shows and editing because I know it so well.
Maybe it will die a slow death or another company will buy it from Gibson and keep it going.
My best friend uses SONAR Platinum and it's impressive.
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:05 PM   #35
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They are STILL trying to sell it as if nothing happened:
https://www.pluginboutique.com/deals/show?sale_id=3494
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Old 11-23-2017, 12:57 AM   #36
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I knew it. I bought lifetime updates last year (in december). I trusted on Cakewalk. I was talking to Seth Kellogg (cakewalk employee that manages Sonar through Steam), he was very happy about the new updates, new features, etc. 1 Year of updates.

But on Lifetime annoucement, they said lifetime pass will survive EVEN THEY ARE SOLD OR CHANGE THE NAME.

So i have hope. I heard a rumor about Tascam going to work with cakewalk regarding Sonar.

I'm using Reaper now because it's more stable and soft. I have an old PC.
I'm pretty sure Gibson owns TASCAM as well.
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Old 11-23-2017, 03:33 AM   #37
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I wonder whether my superb old Gibson L5 is worth more than Gibson?
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Old 11-23-2017, 03:36 AM   #38
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:23 AM   #39
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I wonder whether my superb old Gibson L5 is worth more than Gibson?
Hey what do you use for strings on your L5?

I only have a few packs of the old "Gibson L-5 strings" that I use on an archtop. Really liked those strings. Gibson (of course) discontinued making them.
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:44 AM   #40
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Hey what do you use for strings on your L5?

I only have a few packs of the old "Gibson L-5 strings" that I use on an archtop. Really liked those strings. Gibson (of course) discontinued making them.
Thomastik-Infield Jazz Swing JS112 (Flatwounds). 12,16, 20 (wound), 27,37,50. But I replace the 16 with 15. Great balance of tension and volume across the strings.
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