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Old 05-29-2023, 05:42 AM   #41
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Im ready to pump out some new "Nirvana" tunes

In all seriousness how do you feel about these new AI voices coming out?

WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN?????

What will happen is real retro Nirvana fans wont buy into it. I say retro as he dies so long ago now that his music is frozen in time and retro age, Real Nivana fans would find any AI Kurt to be an unacceptable fake. Real Nivana fans like real music and not some techno remix. Sure, they used guitar FX, but live is live. They won't be interested in a ghost of Kurt and ghosts aren't real no matter how realistic the simulation. Heck, Nirvana fans would bauk at an extended remix of any of their tracks. The 90's and Nirvana along with it, brought a resurgence of old school recording and fans that hated modified music, opposing the decade before with 12 inch mixes they hated. The "New Nirvana" will be nothing back a hack by some hackers. That's what. :-)
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Old 05-29-2023, 07:33 AM   #42
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What will happen is real retro Nirvana fans wont buy into it. I say retro as he dies so long ago now that his music is frozen in time and retro age, Real Nivana fans would find any AI Kurt to be an unacceptable fake. Real Nivana fans like real music and not some techno remix. Sure, they used guitar FX, but live is live. They won't be interested in a ghost of Kurt and ghosts aren't real no matter how realistic the simulation. Heck, Nirvana fans would bauk at an extended remix of any of their tracks. The 90's and Nirvana along with it, brought a resurgence of old school recording and fans that hated modified music, opposing the decade before with 12 inch mixes they hated. The "New Nirvana" will be nothing back a hack by some hackers. That's what. :-)
Hmmm...I consider myself a pretty hardcore Nirvana fan and I think you may have a slightly skewed view on the fanbase...

Do drop by at LiveNirvana sometime!
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Old 05-30-2023, 06:02 AM   #43
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Hmmm...I consider myself a pretty hardcore Nirvana fan and I think you may have a slightly skewed view on the fanbase...

Do drop by at LiveNirvana sometime!

Well, I did have friends back in the day who liked Nirvana. And Pearl Jam. It was like they were competing with each other in fan bases. They were slightly younger than me and they didn't like any pop music or overdubs or remixes. Kinda like my parents generation being they were like music purists. Or really when you had to play for real both in live recordings and and playing live. :-)
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Old 05-30-2023, 07:45 AM   #44
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I For instance, it is crap at maths.
ChatGPT is an LLM, a Large Language Model. It's just one aspect of "artificial intelligence".

Are computers crap at math?

The problem is terminology. IMO people should be saying "simulated intelligence", because each one of these systems are replicating neural processes the human mind does, but not all at once.

"AGI" - artificial general intelligence - will be more in line with what most people think of as "artificial intelligence", but at the point that happens super intelligence will be upon us.

The field is progressing exponentially fast. Trying to quantify what it's capable of in anthropomorphic terms dismisses the effects it's already having on society.

The day the fake "45 being hauled off in cuffs" pictures came out is going to be a watermark in history. We no longer can know what is actually real or not, whether it's music, news, poetry - soon food, medicine, people.
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Old 05-30-2023, 07:55 AM   #45
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When it comes to music and poetry... whatever the AIs produce IS "real" by any definition I can come up with. If the idea that it's "generated" leaves one with a sense of distaste and disdain, so be it... but perhaps put that aside and judge it on its standalone merits.

If the worst you can say is that it's lackluster, derivative, or boring... welcome to the majority of what people make.
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Old 05-31-2023, 03:27 AM   #46
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It's not about the quality of what is produced, it's about the negating of human endeavour.

It is real in the sense of it exists but AI is not passionate or inspired and not able to understand the nuance of human emotion outside of what can be articulated to it.

That doesn't necessarily mean that it won't do something that will inspire human beings in some way..but

The question to ask is, even if AI could fool everybody with its mimicry of emotion and inspiration, do we want a world where the lives of artists, that journey, creativity, passion and drive, is boiled down to text input in some AI browser?.

Do we want a world where future musical geniuses are working in a factory because there is no longer space for or demand for their talent?

It sounds pretty dystopian to me, as do the forewarnings from AI pioneers warning of the existential threat we are creating for ourselves just to 'see' what will happen.

Anyway, I'm at least half way through my life, so whilst I'm sure I'll witness the exponential rise of this I'm too tied to the pre mobile phone and internet world to embrace it. That's for those born today to decide..if they get a choice, which I doubt.
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Old 05-31-2023, 07:30 AM   #47
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All good philosophical points. When it comes right down to it, there's no stopping this train.

Statistically I'm 70% of the way through my life, and I'm filing it all in the, "Inevitable - learn to deal with it" bucket. Just like when traditional artists started complaining about hip hop groups sampling their music, we'll look at model generation via large scale sampling as some sort of uncreative, dishonest effort. But how would you classify what the Beatles were doing when they decided to go to India? Seems a lot like model building to me.

I really do believe we overvalue "human creativity". There are pockets of exceptionalism, but the vast majority of it is strongly derivative.

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Do we want a world where future musical geniuses are working in a factory because there is no longer space for or demand for their talent?
Call them "potential future musical geniuses" and I'd say we're already there. The vanishing of the "unit sale" revenue stream means lots of people that would have learned their chops as session folks or otherwise working musicians have seen those opportunities vanish. We will have a dearth of experienced talent in the future.
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Old 05-31-2023, 12:55 PM   #48
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The moments where I feel like I'm kinda agreeing with all that ("AI is doing the same derivation as we do, just faster", or maybe even "good riddance, it was all ego stuff anyway") are the saddest. Or read that we overvalue human creativity posted right in place where human creatives gather.

Yeah, possibly true. But also, holy shit, there were generations that built lot of their core identity on art, where will all that go now once it's completely invalidated coz read the above? It really messes with my head, looking up to artists was a very formative thing for me.
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Old 05-31-2023, 01:26 PM   #49
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I apologize. "Overvalue" is the wrong word. I meant it as a clumsy short hand for a more complicated idea. What I should have said was "overestimate its complexity". Of course I value creativity, as should we all. I just don't think it's beyond "non-human" capability to be creative.

Great art and artistry is absolutely still to be sought after and applauded, and I suspect you and I will be long dead before the AI's pull that off. It's the run of the mill commodity stuff that's at huge risk.

One thing is true, though... the last couple of generations do not care that much about musical performance (as opposed to spectacle). Drum machines, programmed synth baselines... if it serves the final product well, it's fine. It doesn't matter if fingers plucked strings. The idea of the "guitar god" is well and truly dead.

(Edit): I find creativity and expression valuable enough that, at the age of 53, I bought a very nice digital piano for my living room last weekend, and subscribed to lessons. It's to make ME happy.

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Old 05-31-2023, 04:07 PM   #50
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The day the fake "45 being hauled off in cuffs" pictures came out is going to be a watermark in history. \
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Can you explain this quote?
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Old 05-31-2023, 04:55 PM   #51
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ChatGPT is an LLM, a Large Language Model. It's just one aspect of "artificial intelligence".

Are computers crap at math?
Agreed but checkout the Wolfram plugin for ChatGPT.

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The problem is terminology. IMO people should be saying "simulated intelligence", because each one of these systems are replicating neural processes the human mind does, but not all at once.
There is a good chance that when any of us read and reply to this post, we are in fact, large language prediction models, predicting the most probable next word based on years of neural training. The fact an LLM can create such convincing output more shows that we probably aren't as complex and special as we think we are - especially with the forest/trees issue we have of "being the software as it's running".

IOW, when I see someone making comparisons with thinking, feeling humans, creativity, emotion etc.... I'm finding it harder and harder to swallow and agree with. Sure we'll go kicking and screaming in full denial until the last possible minute (it's our nature), but both we and "the AI" are products of the same physical laws of the universe.

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We no longer can know what is actually real or not, whether it's music, news, poetry - soon food, medicine, people.
We've just entered a true post-truth society (yes, we were headed in that direction but this solidifies it). It's not just that AI generated images will go viral as if they were real (that has already occurred multiple times in the last month), but we are now at a point where real images/evidence/whathaveyou will now be dismissed as AI even when it is not - for whomever it benefits.

Whether a machine is going to write and compose valid competitive music is the very last thing we need to be worried about.
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Old 05-31-2023, 05:21 PM   #52
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IOW, when I see someone making comparisons with thinking, feeling humans, creativity, emotion etc.... I'm finding it harder and harder to swallow and agree with. Sure we'll go kicking and screaming in full denial until the last possible minute (it's our nature), but both we and "the AI" are products of the same physical laws of the universe.
I agree. Just last night I was listening to an interview of a movie personality, saying that AI's will never replace humans as script writers because they can only regurgitate and reconfigure past ideas, that they can't create any new ideas. Sure maybe today. But, with the current rate of progress, in just a few months time that statement may no longer be valid.

But added to that, the human creative process is, in a sense, just a regurgitation of old ideas. We cannot create anything new without the knowledge and experience of what has been done previously (including by ourselves). We simply put together previous bits of information in novel ways to create something new. We aren't aware of this happening, because it is a largely subconscious process. So even now, I don't know how anyone can say that AI doesn't come up with original ideas. Isn't that what we use it for?
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Old 06-01-2023, 12:01 AM   #53
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Whether a machine is going to write and compose valid competitive music is the very last thing we need to be worried about.
The window when photographic evidence was credible is just closing without aliens and bigfoot thing solved
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Old 06-01-2023, 02:31 AM   #54
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Do we want a world where future musical geniuses are working in a factory because there is no longer space for or demand for their talent?
You mean the rare few whom have the backing of megacorporations, like now? There's WAY more music released today than EVER BEFORE. And how do we support all those people? Most won't EVER make a living in music. Never have, never will, unless the system is changed radically. And all this has nothing to do with AI.
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Old 06-01-2023, 04:24 AM   #55
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Agreed but checkout the Wolfram plugin for ChatGPT.


Whether a machine is going to write and compose valid competitive music is the very last thing we need to be worried about.
+1 It's a bit insular; how does this affect musicians, when there may not be a habitable area on the planet left .... well for humans anyway.
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Old 06-01-2023, 06:12 AM   #56
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The window when photographic evidence was credible is just closing without aliens and bigfoot thing solved
Oh yes. And not just photographs. Somebody else above referred to it as a post-truth world. That's absolutely true. Unless you were standing in "the room where it happened", you can't know for certain what went down.

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You mean the rare few whom have the backing of megacorporations, like now?
We had a nice run of 80 years where music "not in person" had value. Before that, patronage and live performances were how musicians made a living. And we're back to that again, plus advertising. Those videos Mary Spender has put out on youtube are very interesting.

The explosion of musicians in the last century was made possible because tech rode the sweet spot in which the tools preserved scarcity (i.e. physical media degraded during reproduction), while distribution remained controlled. Perfect, free reproducibility and the ideal ecosystem for worldwide propagation has killed that.

I'm going to cast shade now. The internet has killed the attention span. The idea of sitting down and listening to an actual album is an anachronism. Some people can't handle a 5 minute song.

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Old 06-01-2023, 08:14 AM   #57
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Oh yes. And not just photographs. Somebody else above referred to it as a post-truth world. That's absolutely true. Unless you were standing in "the room where it happened", you can't know for certain what went down.
Agreed but what I think is a huge problem is that society as a whole doesn't pay close attention to much of anything. One can post the most obvious impossible AI image (like a horse the size of a barn) then half the world blindly shares it as OMG real WOW!.

I've seen it multiple times already in the last few weeks. If the majority instead of the vast minority used their brains instead of their emotions, we'd have much less of this to worry about. But we all know that is never gonna happen. It isn't the AI per se, we are our own worst problem.
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Old 06-01-2023, 08:59 AM   #58
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Maybe in the same way that non musician people might just hear music vs vocal and not be able to discern the details of the individual instruments, they might not hear telltales of AI that might be obvious to a musician?

(Looking at my album collection... Thick as a Brick, Tales from Topographic Oceans, over the top large live Floyd collection...) I already thought most listeners had ultra short attention spans with the 3 minute songs out there! And then some of those songs are just a measure or two of content repeated a few times over at that. That's actually where my attention span falters more than the long winded meandering stuff.

If I have any point in this it's that the interesting stuff will still rise to the top. If you truly have nothing to say, it shows and no technology can fix that. In fact, attempts of turd polishing usually make more of a mess and just call attention to the problem even more.

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Old 06-01-2023, 10:42 AM   #59
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If I have any point in this it's that the interesting stuff will still rise to the top. If you truly have nothing to say, it shows and no technology can fix that.
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Old 06-01-2023, 11:27 AM   #60
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On a side note I've been running Stable Diffusion/Automatic1111 on my desktop machine since March (generative AI for images). It can be fairly amazing if you poke and nudge it the right way.

Pretty sure from now on any "Album Art" I need is going to be done through it. Possibly even a music video when I have time. Pretty much anything I need that I wouldn't have paid someone to do to begin with, I can now do there. My avatar for example is based on a picture of me on stage, but then run through AI for creative purposes.

That said there's a difference between getting it to spit out something cool vs getting it to spit out what you actually want, and/or tweaking something that is close. It ain't really gonna do that part for you so the vision and determination is still needed IMHO.
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Old 06-01-2023, 11:36 AM   #61
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I played some with stable diffusion, mostly making strings of portraits of people in hilarious hats. But soon noticed it made my paranoia in suspecting literally any picture of being a forgery way stronger (paranAIa, I guess). I'm back to digging in vintage film/pic archives.
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Old 06-01-2023, 11:54 AM   #62
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I've created and printed a bit of wall art with it - one can get really creative and end up results that truly don't exist anywhere else. I also do similar to what you said with myself...




I did a small series a couple months ago with me on a date with various super models and movie stars etc. It was hilarious... "This is me having dinner with Mila Kunis, just before the big breakup" I'd post one but I've generated over 25,000 images and not sure where they are.
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Old 06-01-2023, 12:16 PM   #63
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I've created and printed a bit of wall art with it
...with nearly the right number of fingers, too! :-)

(Not to make any assumptions about how many fingers you have.)
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Old 06-01-2023, 12:32 PM   #64
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...with nearly the right number of fingers, too! :-)

(Not to make any assumptions about how many fingers you have.)
LOL I know right? It only got it close to right because I was using Img2Img with a real image of me. Otherwise, 7 fingers it would have been.

I created an actual model of me at one point (worked really well) but pretty sure this is not that and just playing with Img2Img.
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Old 06-01-2023, 12:41 PM   #65
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Presumably you have a pretty beefy machine? A while ago I had GPT2 running on my machine and even that was pretty slow...
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Old 06-01-2023, 01:22 PM   #66
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Presumably you have a pretty beefy machine? A while ago I had GPT2 running on my machine and even that was pretty slow...
My new machine is beefy (13900k/128GB RAM) but most of the work is on the GPU and its memory so a RTX3060 will do the job pretty well - it has 12GB VRAM which made me choose it over the 3070. Memory really seems to be the hurdle IME.

That said, the default is 512x512px which generates in less than 10 seconds with default sampling steps. I'm usually there or 512x768 (or it's inverse) as there are some upscalers that work really well after the fact. For example if I tried 2048x2048 right out of the gate, it's either going to error out or crash my machine.
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Old 06-01-2023, 01:28 PM   #67
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My new machine is beefy (13900k/128GB RAM) but most of the work is on the GPU and its memory so a RTX3060 will do the job pretty well - it has 12GB VRAM which made me choose it over the 3070. Memory really seems to be the hurdle IME.
Well, except for the slightly older CPU, my basement linux server (running automatic1111 as one of its many tasks) is very similar. 3060 for the same reason - 12GB vs. 8GB. It was a good price/performance fit. Also 128GB memory.

And yes... straying away from the 512x square is dodgy. Amazing how much memory these things take. Some of the models I've tried to use just won't go.
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Old 06-01-2023, 01:34 PM   #68
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...meanwhile I'm still cruising along with a i7-4770 with 16GB RAM and a GTX 1060 6GB. Think I'll stick to the online services. :-)
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Old 06-01-2023, 04:22 PM   #69
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Well, except for the slightly older CPU, my basement linux server (running automatic1111 as one of its many tasks) is very similar. 3060 for the same reason - 12GB vs. 8GB. It was a good price/performance fit. Also 128GB memory.

And yes... straying away from the 512x square is dodgy. Amazing how much memory these things take. Some of the models I've tried to use just won't go.
I've had some training models and/or lora issues where 12GB is too close to the cutoff so they didn't work - I did successfully create one model locally with Dreambooth but I over trained it. The working model I made of myself was via Google Colab. Only problem there was at the time I had to interact with the page every few minutes or it would time out... for 3 hours.

I really want to get back go some deforum renders, just haven't had the time or subject matter ideas.

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...meanwhile I'm still cruising along with a i7-4770 with 16GB RAM and a GTX 1060 6GB. Think I'll stick to the online services. :-)
They should work fine. There are definitely some cool online services out there. Being fluent at all in the technology is probably not a bad skill to acquire.
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Old 06-01-2023, 11:10 PM   #70
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You all's discussion on SD left me wondering why people who can't play instruments shouldn't have such a tool that makes music at their disposal? How does music differ from photography/paintings/comics? Not saying you were against it, just that *to me*, more people seem to be embracing the pictorial side of things while "shaming" the music counterpart (or the idea of it since it's not really there yet).

Thoughts?
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Old 06-01-2023, 11:53 PM   #71
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why people who can't play instruments shouldn't have such a tool that makes music at their disposal?

They can. But.

The only thing on my mind: copyright law. The neural network does not create music from scratch, it (in rough terms) is just randomizing and averaging someone else's music, on which it will be "trained". It's not a tool to create music (or anything), it's a tool to circumvent copyright.

Another thing: involvement in creativity. Today you write music and train its neural network. Tomorrow you will not be needed in this world, because the neural network will do the same based on your intellectual work. If you are not a well-known author with a fan base, then it will be easier for the listener to take music for free from neural networks.

*Here you can replace the word "music" with "images" or "code" or whatever. The meaning does not change.
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Old 06-02-2023, 12:09 AM   #72
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You all's discussion on SD left me wondering why people who can't play instruments shouldn't have such a tool that makes music at their disposal? How does music differ from photography/paintings/comics? Not saying you were against it, just that *to me*, more people seem to be embracing the pictorial side of things while "shaming" the music counterpart (or the idea of it since it's not really there yet).

Thoughts?
I think one thing is image generation is further developed and ahead of the music equivalent right now.
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Old 06-02-2023, 01:05 AM   #73
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it's a tool to circumvent copyright.
It is not. If what it creates is close enough to be considered a copyright violation, the original artist can assert copyright. It doesn't circumvent anything.

What it is trained on does not matter. If you write a pop song, nobody can sue you just because you listened to Lady Gaga beforehand.
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Old 06-02-2023, 01:18 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by cool View Post
The neural network does not create music from scratch, it (in rough terms) is just randomizing and averaging someone else's music, on which it will be "trained". It's not a tool to create music (or anything), it's a tool to circumvent copyright.
This is not actually how neural networks work. They are not "randomizing" or "averaging" but rather recognizing patterns in the data and then generating new output based on those learned patterns. This same misconcept has been put forward by artists against AI image generators like SD and MidJourney. Diffusion doesn't "mix and match" anyone's work. It's not a collage of previous works. It's based on pattern recognizing. And it's generating a new output based on this.

Now, whether you think training them on copyrighted works is a copyright violation, is a different thing entirely. I personally think it's weird that the same people who shun AI art, praise those who draw Disney characters (IP violation) or make fan-films or cover someone else's songs. Or do cosplay. Or whatever the form of using someone else's creation to build your own on is...

Last edited by Pink Wool; 06-02-2023 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 06-02-2023, 02:31 AM   #75
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All of the above. If it's training from seeing millions of images as the foundation it works from is a copyright violation, so is your brain when it does the exact same thing. As I mentioned, I've generated over 25k images. Not a single one exists anywhere on earth outside my computer.
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:35 AM   #76
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...

Pretty sure from now on any "Album Art" I need is going to be done through it. Possibly even a music video when I have time. Pretty much anything I need that I wouldn't have paid someone to do to begin with, I can now do there.
...
Don't take this personally, but this is one of the most problematic developments of the past two-three decades. Nobody wants to pay for anything, and then they wonder why nobody else wants to pay them to do anything.

It is dehumanising and disrespectful to expect something of value for no counter-value. True art is a combo of both creativity, highly-developed skills, and hard work. It isn't the result itself, it is the soul of the creator embedded into the result.

Once we start getting results without paying for them or appreciating the personal effort that went into them, we will automatically start not valuing art or creativity or even just any kind of job performed, which will be the ultimate dehumanisation and estrangement. (This is aside from all the issues concerning money as a medium for holding value)

We need to go back to paying for stuff with limited resources that we earned. It is the only sure way I know to start appreciating what we've bought and have. If you buy that damned album, you are 10 times more likely to actually listen to it, and with attention at that.
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Old 06-02-2023, 06:15 AM   #77
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The world you want back didn't exist before the 1920's, and won't be coming around again. Most artists need to consider album revenue streams dead forever. Time spent lamenting it is time spent not figuring out how to live within the ecosystem.

You know, there's a whole frontier opening for people who want to work with AI instead of fighting it. It's very likely that combining a great artist and a well seasoned AI can result in things people can't do alone, and which the public may love.
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Old 06-02-2023, 06:25 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by /AND/ View Post
Don't take this personally, but this is one of the most problematic developments of the past two-three decades. Nobody wants to pay for anything, and then they wonder why nobody else wants to pay them to do anything.

It is dehumanising and disrespectful to expect something of value for no counter-value. True art is a combo of both creativity, highly-developed skills, and hard work. It isn't the result itself, it is the soul of the creator embedded into the result.

Once we start getting results without paying for them or appreciating the personal effort that went into them, we will automatically start not valuing art or creativity or even just any kind of job performed, which will be the ultimate dehumanisation and estrangement. (This is aside from all the issues concerning money as a medium for holding value)

We need to go back to paying for stuff with limited resources that we earned. It is the only sure way I know to start appreciating what we've bought and have. If you buy that damned album, you are 10 times more likely to actually listen to it, and with attention at that.

I'm going to go with you don't know me and lashed out without realizing but here's my reply anyway...

I'm not offended, or maybe I am a little because it is warranted. ^That is pure projected bullshit about me - note where I said because "I wouldn't have paid someone to begin with" You know why? Because I've done my own artwork (good or bad) going back 40 years, I just do it differently now. I'm a HUGE DIY person, have been my entire life. If you see my 14-year history here that should be plain as day - I became very good at it because I was fucking poor growing up and often couldn't afford to keep the lights on.

While most every person I know was amassing thousands of MP3s and/or software they didn't pay for, I was paying for mine. When there would be long-running "the world should be free for me" and "a digital copy isn't tangible so it should be free" threads in this very forum, I was the one defending people's right to charge for what they do and I pissed a lot of people off along the way.

When my friends who are still in the music business fulltime as their only living do something for me, I often pay them more than what they asked. I rarely charge them anything more than a smile to fix gear for them because I want offset all the other cheap bastards they deal with trying to survive.

The other guitarist in my band just found a Mu-Tron Bi-Phase buried in his studio. Looks like it's going to be worth a couple thousand dollars if I can figure out how to fix it for him. He'll try to force some money on me but I'll do my best to not charge him a penny. Here's a picture of I took just now if you don't believe me.

So maybe pick on someone else. /rant

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Old 06-02-2023, 07:14 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post

So maybe pick on someone else.
Or maybe don't take it personally next time someone tells you to not take it personally.

I am not picking on anyone in particular, but on the trend of not paying for anything and expecting everything to be free or cheap.

I also grew up pretty poor and it also affected me in becoming a very DIY person in general. Didn't pay for stuff while I was poor, but always considered that cheating. Finally, when I got my life in order I started paying for stuff, even when I didn't have to but thought I should (e.g. people asking for donations, or FOSS software etc.).

So... don't take it personally. More so if you are not the kind of person I was criticising, which you say you aren't.

Those that ought take it personally are the cheapskates, cheaters and thieves that consider getting anything of value for free a 'normal' mode of existence.
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Old 06-02-2023, 07:24 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by /AND/ View Post
Or maybe don't take it personally next time someone tells you to not take it personally.
You quoted me then went on a rant... Maybe stop projecting personal claims that aren't true onto people you don't know then try to absolve yourself by saying don't take it personally. That's a copout and avoidance of a mistake you made. You need to own and retract that, period.
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