Old 04-17-2016, 08:37 AM   #1
DreadInABabylon
Human being with feelings
 
DreadInABabylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Israel
Posts: 28
Default Theme for 4K screens?

Hi!
Got a PhillipsBDM4065 40" 3840*2160 (with a DP1.2 at 60hz). It's insane.
Not retina shmetina, it's like a regular HD screen times 4.

However, to make full use of the magnificent real estate, haven't yet found a suitable theme, aesthetically or usability -wise.

I loved Paulie on a screen quarter this size.
Some themes work OK, but look boring or ugly. Bad Anti-aliasing becomes apparent, lines are too thick, some text rendering is too small or blurry, etc...
The usual theme tweaks aren't sufficient.

At (Reaper's prefs) scalings of 1.5:1 or 2:1 things look quirky or blurry, and at 1:1 everything's too small.
Here's a screen being shot, to display the full non-effect, with Imperial.

Such a shame, instead of the supposed majestic looks... tinny and unreadable.
I marvel at White-Tie's and other contributor's talents and investment. As a graphic and web designer myself I tried diving in a little bit into WALTER et al and got freaking scared.
I appreciate all your work!

I realize this topic has come up, and expect it will more and more. A lot of users are moving this way.
Until REAPER's devs will address this issue at the core level (did someone say vector? yes they did),
anybody ready to raise the glove?

I wish I knew how to myself.
I believe a lot can be done, with just common sense and the existing tools, to modify a current theme to suit very hi-res displays.

Big screens with big resolutions are going to be standard, so it seems, until interfaces move full on 3D. Or brain chip, you choose what's worse.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg x.jpg (67.1 KB, 973 views)
__________________
a Single, Double, Triple, Quadruple song

Last edited by DreadInABabylon; 04-17-2016 at 10:05 AM.
DreadInABabylon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2016, 11:41 AM   #2
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 21,587
Default

I hate you! I built my whole studio machine for about what you have in your monitor.

Even if the picture in Reaper IS crap, I am still jealous.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2016, 04:56 PM   #3
lachrimae
Human being with feelings
 
lachrimae's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 790
Default

I'm all for a high res theme but my take on this issue is that if you have to upscale, your screen is too small.

PPI on a typical sized (27") 1080 monitor is ~82PPI which is quite comfortable. Your PPI on a 40" 4K is 110 which is why you think things look to small w/out scaling.
But, at least you went with a 40". The most common 4k seems to be around 32" which I simply cannot understand. 32" 4k = an insanely small ~137PPI. Why buy something that has to be up-scaled?

Personally, I run a 50" 4k (49.5" to exact) which puts me at 89PPI (works great w/out up-scaling at a distance of 3.5ft). The very smallest I would suggest for a 4K would be 48".

Anyway, sorry for the side-topic but this info may be helpful to someone in the market.
lachrimae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2016, 01:04 AM   #4
noise_construct
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,566
Default

Quote:
The most common 4k seems to be around 32" which I simply cannot understand. 32" 4k = an insanely small ~137PPI. Why buy something that has to be up-scaled?
Because that Philips 40" is the biggest decent quality 4K display on the market, most others are <32".

Bigger ones are TV screens, meant to be used for another type of image content, viewed from longer distance and as such always a compromise for computer use.
noise_construct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2016, 02:16 AM   #5
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 18,888
Default

For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_pitch

The larger the ppi, the smaller all bit-mapped images will be (and, as I understand it, velocity-based graphics have their own problems). 90 ppi here- perfectly readable from 1-1.5 meters away.

Just for info: load up ReaEQ and measure its window; it's5.9" x 4.5" (15cm x 11.5cm) here.
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2016, 02:23 AM   #6
DreadInABabylon
Human being with feelings
 
DreadInABabylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Israel
Posts: 28
Default

Thank you all for your comments.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
I hate you! I built my whole studio machine for about what you have in your monitor.

Even if the picture in Reaper IS crap, I am still jealous.
Easy on the jealousy, fellow... Consider that it replaced an old crappy Samsung;
Amazing times right? that allow you to build a working recording setup for the price of an expensive monitor! You couldn't have done that even 10 years ago, when I did my last monitor upgrade...

See, my gear philosophy is to upgrade slowly, but in big steps. That's one way to swallow technology without losing yourself in a spending cycle.

FYI, the picture in Reaper (or any other un-optimized applications) is not crap at all though, just not the best it can be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lachrimae View Post
I'm all for a high res theme but my take on this issue is that if you have to upscale, your screen is too small.

PPI on a typical sized (27") 1080 monitor is ~82PPI which is quite comfortable. Your PPI on a 40" 4K is 110 which is why you think things look to small w/out scaling.
That's right, lachrimae. I'm aware that my screen is a little more PPI dense than some others', but actually in today's monitor market it's considered pretty average.
As you mentioned here yourself - not at all on the crazy range. When I design a modern website, I take all resolution ratios into consideration, so I know mine's common. Apple devices, pads...
Screens are getting bigger and denser, and there's nothing we can do about it... except stop technology. An option I'm partial to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lachrimae View Post
But, at least you went with a 40". The most common 4k seems to be around 32" which I simply cannot understand. 32" 4k = an insanely small ~137PPI. Why buy something that has to be up-scaled?

Personally, I run a 50" 4k (49.5" to exact) which puts me at 89PPI (works great w/out up-scaling at a distance of 3.5ft). The very smallest I would suggest for a 4K would be 48".

Anyway, sorry for the side-topic but this info may be helpful to someone in the market.
What theme do you use with your 50", lachrimae?
It's a great topic worthy of discussion.

Bottom line, we're used to what we're used to. I started with a Sinclair Spectrum 48k more than 30 years ago. When I upgraded to Atari ST1040, I thought nothing could be better, things looked so amazing.

Another point: There's the very important "viewing distance" parameter. Quality magazine color printing is 300Dpi, for a reason.

Still, after a certain point, I can see the chase after pixel density becoming useless, only driven by marketing. Unless - sometimes there are technology LEAPS, that force a global adaptation.
I too can not get behind very small pixels on a very small surface.Some monitors are 2/3 the size and double the price of the Phillips (some better specs, but still...)
There IS a balance to be had between energy consumption and pixel density,
but CPU's, GPU's, screen panels - all getting faster, more efficient and compatible, as time goes.

Phillips managed to take one of it's TV's, got rid of the tuner and allowed PC connectivity and refresh rates. That's why it's cheap in it's category.
I can't see how other companies won't follow this trend, somehow. The line between TV's and monitors is getting thinner.

Personally, I think we have more than enough, sure. If all advancement stopped right this moment, it wouldn't be too bad...

But I still would like to enjoy a nice, easy on the eyes theme for my favorite music making software.

So I'm open to suggestions, I might have overlooked something in the stash.
Thank-you!
__________________
a Single, Double, Triple, Quadruple song

Last edited by DreadInABabylon; 04-18-2016 at 03:37 AM.
DreadInABabylon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2016, 05:33 AM   #7
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 21,587
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
I hate you! I built my whole studio machine for about what you have in your monitor.

Even if the picture in Reaper IS crap, I am still jealous.
DIAB: That was just a little joke, is all.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2016, 05:36 AM   #8
krahosk
Human being with feelings
 
krahosk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,786
Default

Thank you Dreadinababylon for sharing your issues with your new monitor.
Considering what you've said, I'm pretty sure my next screen will be an ultrawide qhd instead of a 4k. PPI and readability important as people here pointed out.
This one: http://www.lg.com/ca_en/desktop-monitors/lg-34UM88-P

I hope for you that at some point Cockos will vectorize Reaper as it's been done with other daws so that Reaper is usable in 4k.
krahosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2016, 06:16 AM   #9
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 18,888
Default

^^^
That's a ppi of 110, so the images will not be much bigger than the Phillips.
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. . . . Inspired by ...
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2016, 07:09 AM   #10
krahosk
Human being with feelings
 
krahosk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,786
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
^^^
That's a ppi of 110, so the images will not be much bigger than the Phillips.
The same as the Phillips. Thanks for pointing it out.

*EDIT*

I just realized: it's a WIDE screen, so the PPI you came up with doesn't pose a problem; it's like having 2 1720*1440 monitors side by side. 829.9 x 379.8 mm.

Last edited by krahosk; 04-18-2016 at 07:59 AM.
krahosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2016, 07:48 AM   #11
Steffe1973
Human being with feelings
 
Steffe1973's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ulricehamn, Sweden
Posts: 257
Default

A total diffrent question.

Is it possible to buy a 39-46" LED-tv and use as PC monitor?
__________________
Windows 10 64bit 16gb RAM - Focusrite 2i2 - RODE NT1000 - MXL V67G - MXL 770 M-Audio 49 - Fender TBucket 400CE - HB CST24t - Fender Standard Stratocaster - Jackson JS32TQ
AKG 240 mkII - Sennheiser 280 - KRK RP-5 G2 - HB TE30 - Music Man S.U.B Silo
Steffe1973 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2016, 08:18 AM   #12
DreadInABabylon
Human being with feelings
 
DreadInABabylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Israel
Posts: 28
Default

There's always the option to downscale the whole monitor from the driver to various resolutions. It works well, looks good and sharp, but the idea's kinda annoying.

ivansc,
we got it!

Offensive language oftentimes is the most honest. I always prefer honesty.

krahosk,

Darkstar is still right! That LG will give you about 110ppi. Although at better quality, and bigger price. Looks amazing.

I wouldn't buy it specifically for Reaper, but if you're in the market for a new monitor, IMO there's currently no better value than this Phillips.
Once you put it up on your desk/wall, you look in awe at the sheer size, and the vibrance and contrast make your eyes bleed happiness. It's humbling.
Size matters, hate to admit.

I sit close, usually about 50cm away from the screen. Windows is scaled 125%, and that works well.

Steffe1973,
It's entirely possible. You'd have to check the specs though, to ensure it can connect to your video-card
and output the desired resolution at no less than 50hz, which is IMO the lowest comfortable rate for computer work (as opposed to TV watching).
TV screens also usually have a lower response-rate, and lesser/no driver support for PC's, but that's also being implemented more and more.
It can be slower to react, and harder on the eyes. If you have a tendency for headaches, don't do it. If you do graphic/video crucial work, or read a lot, don't.
If you sit/stand far, and want to control your studio that way, then it's a great solution. A second smaller screen is handy too in that situation.

You out there with big screens - what themes you like?
__________________
a Single, Double, Triple, Quadruple song

Last edited by DreadInABabylon; 04-18-2016 at 08:49 AM.
DreadInABabylon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2016, 08:52 AM   #13
lachrimae
Human being with feelings
 
lachrimae's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 790
Default

Hey Dread, I normally use a modified version of the Default 5 screen although there are things that I really like about some other themes.
I'm waiting to see what the TCP options will look like for the Pro-X Tools Gold theme because it could become my new standard (I've said that about other themes before and it never happened so we'll see).

The issue with running a large LED TV is that you have to do your research to make sure it'll work with a high enough frequency and low enough response time for your use case (hardforum and gaming forums are a good place to research since they're pretty picky about those things). In the case of my Samsung TV, the only vid cards that support running it at 60Hz 4:4:4 Chroma are the nVidia 9x0GTX series (a hefty extra expense). I agree with you that the differences between Monitors and TVs are decreasing, but there are still some annoyances that you have to put up with on some TVs (No auto-wake-up from PC start, and sleep mode resolutions sometimes causing icons and windows to re-size).
Personally I don't think 4k will be ready for prime-time until gui designers account for it and/or monitors (not TVs) become available for a reasonable price in what I consider to be the 4k sweet-spot (45-55"). The latter won't happen anytime soon so if someone wants to be an early adopter for a low-ish price they'll have to deal with some of the negatives I mentioned above (100% worth it if you're the early adopter type).

Another issue with my size recommendation is monitor (speaker) width for accurate stereo representation. Most of the literature I've read recommends ~60 degrees and I'm running closer to 80...

http://imgur.com/a/A2zSX
lachrimae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2016, 05:14 AM   #14
lucas_LCS
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,590
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffe1973 View Post
Is it possible to buy a 39-46" LED-tv and use as PC monitor?
Yes.
I've been using a 39" LED for the last 4 years and I've been pretty happy with it.
lucas_LCS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 01:31 PM   #15
DreadInABabylon
Human being with feelings
 
DreadInABabylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Israel
Posts: 28
Default

Thanks for the replies everybody.

After experimentation of few weeks with different settings, I settled on scaling Windows7 system from 125% to 150%.

I've come to learn that a lot of software scales correctly only for 150%.
Reaper looks better and more usable now.

I can still fit so much data on the screen at one time. It makes the workflow faster and more enjoyable.
Much less play with zooms and pans for the tracks space, it's all right there with high detail.
One thing I always wanted that's now reality: a permanent fx chain window (changes with track selection) that never needs to scale up, as it's already maximized (to Kontakt size).
__________________
a Single, Double, Triple, Quadruple song
DreadInABabylon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2021, 01:33 PM   #16
gapalil001
Human being with feelings
 
gapalil001's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Posts: 106
Default

you can try to use my theme:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=247086

there is 4k version is on a Google Drive
but some elements are still not retina
gapalil001 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 04:26 AM   #17
ernzo
Human being with feelings
 
ernzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 617
Default

Maybe something like MxM's scalable theme:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=219391

Or Metric if you're into dark scifi:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=197202

.

Last edited by ernzo; 01-25-2021 at 10:50 AM.
ernzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2021, 06:47 AM   #18
LarrySeyer
Human being with feelings
 
LarrySeyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 145
Default Maybe this one?

I recognize the problem. It's one of the reason's I am creating my own theme that's scalable.

iCandy 6 is designed to look great on any sized/resolution monitor and can be scaled used Reaper's theme scaling option.

Settings->General->Advanced UI/System Tweaks/Scale UI Elements.

The Ver 1.0 of the theme will be free and will be available later this year.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=248364
LarrySeyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2021, 03:19 AM   #19
Ideosound
Human being with feelings
 
Ideosound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: U.K
Posts: 383
Default

I think the Smooth theme has 1080p and 4k support....
Ideosound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2021, 03:26 AM   #20
Skorobagatko
Human being with feelings
 
Skorobagatko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Ukraine, Kyiv
Posts: 373
Default

CONCEPT SIX Series https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....ht=concept+six
__________________
Arrangement/mixing
Skorobagatko is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.